Money pit? does cuebuilding/repair pay off?

S

Strange_Days

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi everyone,

Well, barring an amazing price coming back on a JET 13x40 lathe, I think I am decided on getting Chris Hightowers deluxe cuesmith to start repairs and what I hope to be a long and fulfilling journey into building my own cues. I have plodded my way through the forum, searched through over 1000 threads in "ask the cuemaker" and carefully extracted as many precious nuggets of information as I could pertaining to all aspects of cue building. I am ready to go but I've hit a roadblock... My wife. She believes, and from what I have read she may be right, that the investment will never pay itself off. I am from Canada so purchasing a deluxe from Chris will cost more like $4000 cdn with all the extras and that's only the beginning so my question to you is this:

Do you actually make money when you take up this hobby or am I just a dreamer. I believe that I would love doing this, but $5000+ is steep for me if I could not finance the hobby through itself somehow. What do you guys (or gals) do to make it pay off. I've thought of

tips
ferrules
wraps
shaft cleaning and repair
custom cue building (may be a while before I make anything on this one lol)

I would be the only real cue repair guy in town (45k people). How much business to you see? how often to people need tips redone on avg and how much do you make from them? do you offer any other services or products that I could incorporate to make a profit on?

This will not be my main gig but I do want to approach it in as business like a fashion as I can and I hope it will pay for iteself in time. Any help you could give me would be great. I'd love to know the good or the bad... or even the ugly. Thanks to all who support this great forum and are open with their knowledge, you've been extremly helpful so far.

Matt LeClerc
 
It will pay off

Matt, We do repairs and it will pay off in the long run. We bought a Proper lathe it cost around $3800.00 and it paid for itself in 9 months of repairs. We wish we would have bought one of Chris lathes but we bought the Proper and it works get for repairs. the only reason we never make any money on cue repairs is that it all goes for wood, cue parts and other things like tips,glue and all the other stuff you must have. good luck with it Waldos
 
Strange Days:

I guess making money would depend on you and your skill.
Do you have any experience with cues?
Do you have any experience with a lathe?
Can you communicate with people?
If not, do you have the patience to wait on the making money part while you get experience.
Time factor depends on you.
Potential depends on Quality, Experience, People skills.
 
I'm also from Canada and just went through the whole lathe and cue machine purchase. I ended up buying a Mini Metal lathe from a shop in Indiana and all my supplies and extras from two other suppliers in the states. With the mini-lathe I can do Tips & Ferrules, clean and repair shafts, wraps, mess around with custom joint protectors and also do other services on the side that aren't associated with pool & billiards.

I have never touched a lathe before 2 weeks ago and have never repaired a cue. If your doing this as a hobby why not start small and work your way up. I'm not saying that I also may regreat not buying a cue lathes to begin with, but I am saying I can do all listed above and it only cost me $700.00 CDN.

No matter what you go with if your happy with what you decide on then you made the right purchase. Just my two cents.

Good Luck

Greg.
 
Strange_Days said:
I would be the only real cue repair guy in town (45k people). How much business to you see?
Matt LeClerc
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In my opinion, you won't have much consistent local business in a town of 45k. To me, it just sounds sort of small unless there really is a large pool crowd. If you do good work and end up getting everyone's business, then the lathe would eventually pay for itself, but if you are going to take the money and buy woods and other equipment and tools because you want to make cues, then I think it is probably a safe assumption that the initial 4 grand will not come back to you anytime soon (as in years), but it could be a workhorse for earning you small chunks of money to help pay for additional purchases.... the going would just be slow.

Mike's response is something very important. Have you done any repairs before? Have you any skills yet in that area? What are you going to do if someone brings you a $1000 dollar cue and wants you to repair it it, and you have never done that particular repair? You will have to practice a lot on junk cues to acquire those skills, which will take time and money, unless people just give you half broken cues for you to learn on.

I am not as close to buying equipment as you are, but I have been buying wood, and probably spent around 2500 US, and honestly, I don't expect to see much of anything back for a very long time, even if I am successful as a cuemaker. There is so much cost in tooling, additional materials, wasted materials until you know what you are doing, that my hope is to break even by 10 years. Seven years if things go well. Others might have a different take on it, and I would love to hear someone's experience who started from scratch and stuck with it long term, and know when they truly got to a break even point. With the ongoing cost of materials, initial cost of machinery and tooling, and then upgrades later, finishing equipment in 2 or 3 years when you have cues that actually hit ok and look ok, and are straight, and now they need to be finished for you to sell, etc, and for the little money that is actually made on a cue, especially a new cuemaker, I just see it could take quite a few years to catch up with your total output.

You sound excited, and I think you should tell your wife whatever you have to do get your lathe :p :D :p :p but in my opinion, only from what I have spent thus far, what I have read and been told, but not from experience yet, you probably should expect to write off the initial 4000, and progress in your hobby/business at an equal pace with what you can make in simple repairs from the hightower machine, and know if things go sour you can make a good portion of the money back if you had to sell it.

Just my thoughts, but take it for what it is worth since I am not a cuemaker, but am one seat behind you in the boat looking for some paddles.

Kelly
 
IMO, it does pay for itself, depending on how aggressive you want to be. I bought a Mid-Size Cue Smith lathe, built a portable booth that I can go to tournaments with and do minor cue repair (tips, shaft cleaning, wraps). I went to a tournament in a town of 850 people, the tournament is an annual 6 man team tournament... I paid for my lathe that weekend!

I suggest that you order a Deluxe from Chris, schedule a time to pick it up yourself and make a working vacation out of it! Chris will show you how to use it and what can be done with it. You'll get first hand experience, get to meet Chris, who is a very nice guy and full of knowledge. Read his book and watch his videos. In the meantime (while the lathe is being built), purchase supplies, tips, ferrule and butt material, shaft blanks, linen wrap and press, adhesives and glues and frequent this forums Cue Maker section and read all that you can. Get a name picked out, make some business cards and flyers, but don't hand them out yet. Give yourself a couple months of playing around with the lathe on junk cues or your own cues. Once you feel comfortable installing tips and cleaning shafts, spread the word and you'll do fine!

Just my suggestions,
Zim
www.zimsrack.com
 
IMO, One of the good things about Chris' lathe is its ability to print money.
It doesn't print the really big bills but it can spit out lots of 1's, 5's, 10's & 20's. If you're patient and learn to do the different repairs correctly, deal with your customers professionally, and stand behind your work, Cue repairs can make you a little money. It takes a little bit of time getting established, but if you can make the rounds to the local rooms & leagues, You can pick up quite a bit of work. Paying for the investment shouldn't be any problem.

Be patient and only take on work that you are comfortable doing. All it takes is one Hack job on one shaft to really put a dent in your reputation. If you do mess up someone's cue, be up front with the customer and be ready to spend whatever it takes within reason to make the situation right. Good Luck
 
I live in an Illinois community of small towns that are all about 6-8 miles apart. They probably total 50,000 in population. I started with an old Atlas bench lathe & a wood lathe, that I mounted a large drill press chuch on. I paid $600 for the metal lathe & $80 for the wood lathe at an auction. I only did LePro & Elkmaster tips & fiber ferrules the 1st 2 years. The 1st year I made $800. The second year I made $2000. Since I had a full time job, I put everything that I made, back into the business. In the 3rd year I made my 1st cues. They were all made from house cues or broken cues. I made that kind of cue for the next 2 years. Then I bought more equipment & stock & began making what I called "real cues". Buying a cue for a hundred & selling it for $200 is a much faster way of making money, with no machinery involved. You won't get rich repairing or making cues, but you can make enough, at home, to consider it a part time job. Stick with repairs for a while, don't be in a hurry. The inventory & investment is small & you can easily pay back your costs. Making cues is very satisfying, but requires a lot of inventory & a costly spraying operation...JER
P.S. I now have 6 lathes & am retired & make 40-50 cues a year & do a lot of repairs.
 
So in the 5th year you bought more equipment and started making "real cues" as you put it. I assume it took a year or so to pay for that, so would you say starting from scratch and keeping a running total of everything spent, 7 years was about right for you in terms of recovering everything paid out? My response to the original post was sort of assuming the path you described.
Kelly


BLACKHEARTCUES said:
I live in an Illinois community of small towns that are all about 6-8 miles apart. They probably total 50,000 in population. I started with an old Atlas bench lathe & a wood lathe, that I mounted a large drill press chuch on. I paid $600 for the metal lathe & $80 for the wood lathe at an auction. I only did LePro & Elkmaster tips & fiber ferrules the 1st 2 years. The 1st year I made $800. The second year I made $2000. Since I had a full time job, I put everything that I made, back into the business. In the 3rd year I made my 1st cues. They were all made from house cues or broken cues. I made that kind of cue for the next 2 years. Then I bought more equipment & stock & began making what I called "real cues". Buying a cue for a hundred & selling it for $200 is a much faster way of making money, with no machinery involved. You won't get rich repairing or making cues, but you can make enough, at home, to consider it a part time job. Stick with repairs for a while, don't be in a hurry. The inventory & investment is small & you can easily pay back your costs. Making cues is very satisfying, but requires a lot of inventory & a costly spraying operation...JER
P.S. I now have 6 lathes & am retired & make 40-50 cues a year & do a lot of repairs.
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Kelly_Guy said:
So in the 5th year you bought more equipment and started making "real cues" as you put it. I assume it took a year or so to pay for that, so would you say starting from scratch and keeping a running total of everything spent, 7 years was about right for you in terms of recovering everything paid out? My response to the original post was sort of assuming the path you described.
Kelly
Click to expand...
In that 5th year I bought a Porper lathe & paid for it, THAT year. Then the next year I bought one of Chris Hightower's lathes, with inlay attachment. By this time my cues with points & inlays were selling for $500-$600 & I sold about 30 in all price ranges, but I paid for the Hightower equipment in that same year. One year I made 72 cues, but most were around $200-$300. Since I was doing this part time, I bought all of my shaft blanks from either Chris, Joel Hercek or Prather. I also bought all of my forearms with points from Prathers. It wasn't till my my eighth year that I started making my own shafts & doing my own forearms,(both inlayed & short spliced). I started in 1984. My cues now sell as high as $2000. It's been a great expirience & I love doing it. IF YOU FIND IT TO BE MORE LIKE WORK & DON'T LOVE IT.....YOU WON'T LAST LONG...JER
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
In that 5th year I bought a Porper lathe & paid for it, THAT year. Then the next year I bought one of Chris Hightower's lathes, with inlay attachment. By this time my cues with points & inlays were selling for $500-$600 & I sold about 30 in all price ranges, but I paid for the Hightower equipment in that same year. One year I made 72 cues, but most were around $200-$300. Since I was doing this part time, I bought all of my shaft blanks from either Chris, Joel Hercek or Prather. I also bought all of my forearms with points from Prathers. It wasn't till my my eighth year that I started making my own shafts & doing my own forearms,(both inlayed & short spliced). I started in 1984. My cues now sell as high as $2000. It's been a great expirience & I love doing it. IF YOU FIND IT TO BE MORE LIKE WORK & DON'T LOVE IT.....YOU WON'T LAST LONG...JER
Click to expand...

Needless to say you must have a clientell base to draw from and you must build your reputation. If you do good work the word spreads, if your work is sub-par then that spreads also. I'm in Cincinnati where there are two other cue-makers and about 3 or 4 others doing repair work. Over the years there have been others who have attempted doing repairs but they fell by the wayside either from poor quality work or lack of interest. I have a shop and am a fulltime cue-maker and repair mechanic and have been doing it for many years. I probably do about 60% of all the repair work in the area as I have the equipment and know how to repair anything put to me in a very timely manner. I have people who drive over a hundred miles just to have a tip installed. It costs me about a 1,000.00 a month just for my shop which is 1800 sq'. I make money building cues but by far my biggest money maker is in repairs. In the winter, which is pool season, I have no time to build cues just for sale as all my time is used in repair work and building custom ordered cues for people. Once your reputation is built, and you want to put in the hours, it's no problem to gross 75 to 100,000.00 a year. You get a firm back ground in repairs then building cues comes easily. It doesn't take much equipment to get started doing tips, polishes, wraps excetra and some of your profits can go into more and better equipment. Just takes a little time and dedication.
Dick
 
Repair work will eventually pay off, Building cues is another matter. Looking back I wish I would have stayed with repair. You get into it so deep that you can't get out. Then it absorbs all your time trying to get to the top. You will learn that it takes all the time you use to spend on other things you loved to do. I'v seen a lot of people buy lathes and end up selling them after a while when they find out how much money it cost to be a real cue maker. I'm not alking about a cue assembler. Buying parts and throwing them together. Butterflycues
 
I've been lucky, and we have had good growth in My county, just this county alone, and not including the surounding counties had something like 77-78 % growth in between the years 1990-2004, and is in the top 15% in the state. The population, again just in this county is over 150,000, so there are quite a few people from all over coming in that play pool.

I would say My last lathe easily payed for It'self in gross the first year, but your constantly putting funds back in as you develop & add to your skills, and increase your inventory, tools and machinery. It still feels like your broke alot of times, and working your butt off, because you can't afford everything you need and want at first, and have to settle for what you can.

As far as the women are concerned, That can be a tough road until they start seeing the return, and that may be part of your struggle also, because you have to put back in, so they don't see much.

The statement about the repair taking over is true also, but it pays the bills so to speak. when your making money, you may be too involved with repair to build many cues, or just have your equipment tied up with repairs alot. That's another way having several lathes is an advantage. The more you have the more that are free to build cues on when you get a chance in between other things.

Your regulars are your bread and butter, so as mentioned you want to build a customer base up, and do good work for them. stick to the basics at first, and be carefull of people talking you into repairs that you don't feel comfortable with, or are not prepared to do yet. I have been doing this for alot longer then it seems, but I used primative tools for many years, before I started adding equipment, and building inventory, so i did have some skills before taking It more seriously, but there is always room for improvement, and I still learn something new almost everyday.

You can do many things on the side to help with costs. I use to sell stuff on ebay to help fund stuff i needed. I even dealt & still do in cues with the league players for extra funds, and that in turn brings them in for tip & shaft work when they end up needing It. Point is you can find other ways to help support It at first, actually take part, By getting to know your customers, and bringing more people into the sport, afterall It is to your advantage anyway, and your introducing someone new to the sport at the same time. If your a player, then spend allitle bit of time possibly, to give them a few pointers If they would like, or discuss pool related things in general. Most of the people we get work from we know, and sometimes shoot with. We get alot of new ones too, but eventually you get to know most all of them, unless someone else is getting the work for you. Sometimes that's the case also, and you never see the customer.

It is alot of dedication, so you really do have to love what your doing. Even someone that is fairly dedicated, could be discouraged easily by the struggle at first. Bussiness can come in waves, espeacially if you do good work.

Greg
 
Voice of reason...

Strange_Days said:
Hi everyone,
This will not be my main gig but I do want to approach it in as business like a fashion as I can and I hope it will pay for iteself in time. Any help you could give me would be great. I'd love to know the good or the bad... or even the ugly. Thanks to all who support this great forum and are open with their knowledge, you've been extremly helpful so far.
Matt LeClerc
Click to expand...

How about you let me help convince you? Whenever I do a Real Estate Deal or other investments, I look at it one way...What can I expect at the end of the day. You have to look at all varibles. Since you'll be dropping 4k on a lathe, that doesn't mean you took 4k and threw it away. At the end of the day, you have a lathe that would probably fetch 80% of it's initial purchase price. If you ever saw cue lathes on ebay, they sell for big money, and they sell fast. Doesn't matter how old they are. So, figure on getting 80% of your money back if the hobby doesn't work, you only need to make 20% net to break even. Plus all the edumacation you get in the mean time. What a deal, now go and order your lathe.

Glenn <---Chris you can send me commision via paypal...
 
Glenn Deneweth said:
At the end of the day, you have a lathe that would probably fetch 80% of it's initial purchase price. If you ever saw cue lathes on ebay, they sell for big money, and they sell fast. Doesn't matter how old they are. So, figure on getting 80% of your money back if the hobby doesn't work, you only need to make 20% net to break even. Plus all the edumacation you get in the mean time. What a deal, now go and order your lathe.
Click to expand...
AMEN :)

Thanks everyone for some great responses. It has eased my mind quite a bit about getting into this and what I can expect. My wife(shes great) has already given me the go ahead to start(although a little disapprovingly) but I think reading this thread will ease her mind as well. Its not about the money for me but the money makes it possible. I mean, it has to be better than when I convinced her we needed $8000 to buy a pool table(from Las Vegas) and renovate the basement right :)

I love playing pool, and I love working with wood. I cannot imagine a hobby that would be more rewarding for me. I really want to offer the highest quality in the work that I will do so expect LOTS more questions from me :) The members of this forum have been nothing but helpful from the start and I hope someday I can be the one with the answers. Thanks everyone

Zims Rack said:
I suggest that you order a Deluxe from Chris, schedule a time to pick it up yourself and make a working vacation out of it! Chris will show you how to use it and what can be done with it. You'll get first hand experience, get to meet Chris, who is a very nice guy and full of knowledge. Read his book and watch his videos. In the meantime (while the lathe is being built), purchase supplies, tips, ferrule and butt material, shaft blanks, linen wrap and press, adhesives and glues and frequent this forums Cue Maker section and read all that you can. Get a name picked out, make some business cards and flyers, but don't hand them out yet. Give yourself a couple months of playing around with the lathe on junk cues or your own cues. Once you feel comfortable installing tips and cleaning shafts, spread the word and you'll do fine!
Click to expand...

Im on it!!
 
repairs

Strange_Days said:
Hi everyone,

Well, barring an amazing price coming back on a JET 13x40 lathe, I think I am decided on getting Chris Hightowers deluxe cuesmith to start repairs and what I hope to be a long and fulfilling journey into building my own cues. I have plodded my way through the forum, searched through over 1000 threads in "ask the cuemaker" and carefully extracted as many precious nuggets of information as I could pertaining to all aspects of cue building. I am ready to go but I've hit a roadblock... My wife. She believes, and from what I have read she may be right, that the investment will never pay itself off. I am from Canada so purchasing a deluxe from Chris will cost more like $4000 cdn with all the extras and that's only the beginning so my question to you is this:

Do you actually make money when you take up this hobby or am I just a dreamer. I believe that I would love doing this, but $5000+ is steep for me if I could not finance the hobby through itself somehow. What do you guys (or gals) do to make it pay off. I've thought of

tips
ferrules
wraps
shaft cleaning and repair
custom cue building (may be a while before I make anything on this one lol)

I would be the only real cue repair guy in town (45k people). How much business to you see? how often to people need tips redone on avg and how much do you make from them? do you offer any other services or products that I could incorporate to make a profit on?

This will not be my main gig but I do want to approach it in as business like a fashion as I can and I hope it will pay for iteself in time. Any help you could give me would be great. I'd love to know the good or the bad... or even the ugly. Thanks to all who support this great forum and are open with their knowledge, you've been extremly helpful so far.

Matt LeClerc
Click to expand...
Matt, it depends on two things to make money doing cue repair. The first being, you have to work at it to make money,don't be lazy, however if you live in a small town or depressed town, making money is tough. Big towns offer much more of a customer base.

I was the first cue-repair person to ever travel doing cue repairs all over the states, over 30 yeras ago.

My first outing was 14-1/2 month's on the road, and booked over 150, big ones. no bull. Yes, if you apply yourself and do great work, the money will follow you my friend.
blud
 
Strange_Days said:
Hi everyone,

Do you actually make money when you take up this hobby or am I just a dreamer. I believe that I would love doing this, but $5000+ is steep for me if I could not finance the hobby through itself somehow. What do you guys (or gals) do to make it pay off.

Matt I don't make much on the cues I make. But then I don't have the name or reputation of some who have laboured for years at the trade. I still enjoy making them and will continue to do so on a small scale (10 - 15 a year).

Cue repairs are profitable. I pull from an area with 500,000 within a 1/2 hour drive and 4 to 5 million within a one hour drive. My business grew from a very local clientel to one which now includes a very large area. It grew primarily from word of mouth. If you do good work and treat your customers properly, I expect you will do just fine.

BTW are you coming down to the Ontarios this year??
Click to expand...
 
Mase said:
Matt I don't make much on the cues I make. But then I don't have the name or reputation of some who have laboured for years at the trade. I still enjoy making them and will continue to do so on a small scale (10 - 15 a year).

Cue repairs are profitable. I pull from an area with 500,000 within a 1/2 hour drive and 4 to 5 million within a one hour drive. My business grew from a very local clientel to one which now includes a very large area. It grew primarily from word of mouth. If you do good work and treat your customers properly, I expect you will do just fine.

BTW are you coming down to the Ontarios this year??
Click to expand...

Hi, yeah I will be there. I've got a great team this year looking forward to it. I'm playing the singles and teams and I have a few days off before and afterwards.

Mase, did you do the repairs at the ontarios and canadians last year? I'd love to have a chat if you have any free minutes to spare when I'm in TO in either this weekend(be there friday to monday) or around the ontarios sometime.
 
Hi, yeah I will be there. I've got a great team this year looking forward to it. I'm playing the singles and teams and I have a few days off before and afterwards.

Mase, did you do the repairs at the ontarios and canadians last year? I'd love to have a chat if you have any free minutes to spare when I'm in TO in either this weekend(be there friday to monday) or around the ontarios sometime.[/QUOTE]

It was a chap that apprenticed with me for about a year. His name is Don Broose. He does excellent work and will be doing the Ontarios again for me. With me organizing them and playing in them I don't have time to do the repairs. Either of us would be happy to talk to you and answer any questions you may have. If you want, you could come down and spend a day or two with me and I could probably help you get started.
 
butterflycues said:
...Looking back I wish I would have stayed with repair...Butterflycues
Click to expand...

I am glad you decided to progress to cue-making. You do great work and I am thankful that I have the oppportunity to use your art! :D
 
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