Money Players/Tournament Players

R

Rickw

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This subject came up in the Scott Townsend Thread and I just wanted to elaborate on it more to see if there is any consensus here.

From my observations, money players usually play just good enough to win the cash. Sometimes they even lose a little cash in order to win the big cash. This requires the skills necessary to play up or down depending on the situation. I saw a quote from Tang Hoa in here that seems very appropriate for this thread, and it goes something like this, "Miss one shot and you're broke. Miss two shots and you don't eat." There are some money players that can elevate their game to an incredible level when the cash is on the line. However, many of the money players that I have seen, do not necessarily play as well in tournaments as they do for the cash. This may not be a fluke, i.e., it could be done on purpose.

Tournament players, from my observations, do not necessarily gamble well. They may be great tournament players but they may not have the skills necessary to be successful at playing for the cash. I have been at the Reno tournament many times over the years and have watched both the tournaments during the day and the "action" at night. Most of the top tournament players do not participate in the action at night. I'm assuming they are more interested in getting the right amount of rest so they can perform better in the tournament. One of the few top tournament players that does participate in the action is Efren. That guy will play in the tournament all day winning all his matches and then gamble all night winning a lot of cash. I've seen him win thousands gambling at night and win the tournament too!

The bottom line here is that there are usually two different types of players, tournament players and money players, with the exception of Efren. One is not necessarily better than the other. They are just different.
 
What I'd like to know is, which money player played sans alcohol or chemical help?:D
Efren's road manager one time told me this pro wanted to play Efren TWENTY-ahead for a good dough. He said, yeah right, what drugs is he going to take. While Efren eats Oreos and drinks coffee.
 
You really don't want to know which players were chemically tuned! It would shatter the image that some of them have made for them selfs. Early 80's were speeding times......lol! Some of the tuned players back then are so called respectable Champions. Anyway..........Tourny Players and Cash Players are 2 different things. Being a cash player you can lay down a little, and come back............and get there when you need to. Tourny Players have to be in the zone at all times. Not to say you can't be both like Efren............but usually you are one or the other. When I use to play alot the cash games were easier for me than the tournies. But it is all what you play more of. You play in more tournies....you get use to that type of pressure. And same goes for Cash games.
 
Good question JC. I have no idea. I hope there was at least one out there that didn't drink or do drugs!

PTM
There are some players out there that just cannot play when it's their money on the line, don't you think? I certainly know of at least a few good tournament players that will not play with their cash (not the top pros).
 
Interesting topic. Some money players may not play in tournaments because they desire anonymity.

ManlyShot
 
I think it has alot to do with what they have played. I use to play for money all the time......but tournies.......I'd get up there and struggle. But after concentrating on tournies......I got into that zone. It is a completely different type of pressure. I think! And like man said........some just don't want the publicity. To many eyes watch the tournies....and word spreads faster.
 
In the 70s and early 80s Keith McCready never won any of the top tourneys. He got close but no "Big" cigar. He was even called a brides-maid by Allen Hopkins on national TV. Now, how many of the "Champions" of the era ran to play Keith for the cash? Another rhetorical question, NONE. People like Mike Sigel took their shots but to no avail. And, Mike would only try Keith on the big table. No one would even try, without weight, on the bar box.

Point being, Keith didn't care wheather he won the tournament because there was a good chance he was going to get the cash anyway.
 
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Thusfar, this post is loaded with very accurate information. I agree that there are some big names that use enhancers to maintain their edge, but, from my knowledge of top professionals (for which I know and have competed against plenty), if they are still playing in tournaments they have drastically cleaned up their act. For those that are playing for the cash, it is not necessarily the case.
In my opinion there is far more pressure in a tournament, and for a number of reasons - (1) you have to play a number of great players in order to win, (2) you must adjust to these different player's style of strategy, (3) you are limited to a maximum of 1-2 set losses, (4) and typically the venues are spread over a number of days.
This is totally indifferent to playing for the cash, where a player can (1) stage the match-up, (2) select the opponent, (3) play or not play, (4) play as many sets as you can afford, (5) in which case they have the luxury to come back from a large deficit if their stamina is stronger than an opponents (in which case only time will tell), (6) and above all they can hustle a weaker player who may have a ton of cash and an equal amount of ego. In which case, all of the above is what the money player is looking for in a score.
As far as tournament pro players vs. the money players, they are very limited to the order of a tournament,. and are truly trying to be the best player and person that they can be. I think the reason we don't see top pro (tournament) players matching up as much, is mostly because they respect the game, the other top pro opponents, the value of money and most of all their reputation (especially if they are sponsored by a big name company). This is why I call top tournament players - professionals, where as top money players are looking for easy hits and are basically hustlers, Also, an easy call to this difference is if you don't see them around they are probably broke. Once again, indifferent to the professional tournament player that is playing in every tournament their schedule will allow, and if they do match up, for the most part it will probably be with another top pro. Another tip-off to the differece between pros vs hustlers, is th money player is always barking at big name pros to play.
So if a top pro "Dogs it" for the cash it is probably because they know they are doing something stupid. I say this because in my observation when I have seen a top pro playing for money, they are playing another top pro.
As far as anonymity, this was much more the case in years passed where there were not as many great players (in numbers), where today these numbers have skyrocketed and most top players know to be far more careful.

A little advise if you do play for money, especially if the amount will adversely affect your bank roll - take the cash out of your pocket and put it on the lights; you will play harder to ge it back. If you keep the money in your pocket, mentally you still haven't given it up and play as if you might lose it; as opposed to giving it up and fighting to get it back.
Just a thought...
 
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Always liked playing for money cause it really does show the better player/game maker. The two are absolutely different kinds of pressure. Like anything else, if you concentrate on one you won't be as good in the other, Efren has always done both so he'll always be good in each.

The best example of one of the greatest tournament players on earth who is probly the most horrible gambler at pool I've ever seen is none other than.....Earl Strickland. He had enough brains to stop gambling cause he was sick of losing at it.

The excuse that "I'm not playing him, he's on something" is just that! An excuse not to play! As long as the money is there and the game is right.........get the cash..............it's his problem if he's "not right" and can't play good that day. People taking one thing or another have such big swings of playing ability it's tough for them to match up right. They never know who's going to be at the table that day. Sometimes you have to fade their good game but more often than not you don't.

For alot of people getting the "yips" is a terrible feeling when you're sober so they cover it up. It's a hard thing to thrive and want the pressure when you can feel it and know every sensation. That's a better feeling than playing in a stupor. But thats another kind of discussion.

Happy Holidays Everyone,
Steve
 
Yeah most of what I said is about pool in the late 70's to late 80's. Most of the old guys have cleaned up their acts, and don't do things of stupid youth. I remeber seeing one guy come out of the bathroom.....and still had a white substance still in his stash'. His buddy told him and he retreated to the bathroom to clean up. Not naming names because that is their bussuiness. It just shed a bad light on pool at the time for me. But it wasn't just in pool, or because they were pool players. They could have been yahtzee players....still woulda been juiced. These days I don't think it is as bad as years past. Regardless......drugs are around, and people do what people do.

I remember way back....getting to see Tommy Kennedy playing 500 and 1,000 dollar sets.....against Scotty, Archer, Joe Lawarence (if anybody remember this guy), and a string of other Champions. Myself....I like the gambling side of pool more than tournies. You get to see what a guy really has when you match up a set of 8 ahead, or even 5 ahead. A problem I have with tournies is that you have to play a match............then sit! Get up....play one race to 9. SIT! It is hard for me to keep focused or stay in stroke. But then again......that's why I never could quite get there! lol!
 
Strickland had a point though.........I wouldn't play a dude wired, that could stay up for 3 days! I know guys that still say they won't play them guys that do anything. lol Those players become a shooting star. They flame up......get real bright for a little while.......then never seen again. They have their short time in the sun......get burnt out.......can't make a ball........then never heard of again.
 
I like to watch tournaments, especially when really good players are playing one another, but, to me, there is nothing more interesting than to watch two top money players going at it! I could be wrong here but I think money players have a tendency to be cooler at the table under stressful situations. It didn't surprise me to read one of the posts above that said Earl was not a good money player. He seems to be the type of player that lets things bother him. Everyone is supposed to hush when he's playing. It seems to me a lot of good tournament players tend to be like that. They're fussy about stuff. A good money player, generally, tends to be more tolerant. Of course when their money is on the line, I'm sure they're not going to get carried away with tolerance! Of course there are exceptions to every rule. I'm just talking in general here.

It really cracked me up watching Efren playing a match on TV where he was supposed to call the 9 and he kept forgetting to do it. He just chuckled and shook his head when it happened. He didn't get uptight about it. Can you imagine what Earl would have done? Of course Earl wouldn't have done it twice!!
 
hemicudas said:
In the 70s and early 80s Keith McCready never won any of the top tourneys. He got close but no "Big" cigar. He was even called a brides-maid by Allen Hopkins on national TV. Now, how many of the "Champions" of the era ran to play Keith for the cash? Another rhetorical question, NONE. People like Mike Sigel took their shots but to no avail. And, Mike would only try Keith on the big table. No one would even try, without weight, on the bar box.

Point being, Keith didn't care wheather he won the tournament because there was a good chance he was going to get the cash anyway.
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Thank you, my man, for acknowledging the facts because that is the way it was. Everybody that came to California to take a shot at me got shipped out empty, and you are right, Mike Sigel would only play me on a big table, wouldn't even think about playing me on the bar box. He tried it and got shipped out, and so did his buddy, Larry Hubbard.

Things have changed now. Politics have changed the pool player's attitude towards gambling. Back in the '70s and '80s, that's all it was, was gambling, and then you had your Jimmy Rempes who only wanted to play straight pool, 150 points for a C-note.

Sure wish everything could be now like it was back then. I would probably try to make a better effort to come out of my cocoon.
 
I agree with Keith, not that I would know much about the past and going on the road since i wasn't around then, but pool nowadays on the road it is too easy to figure out who people are. There is no suprise on who the road player is. Everyone has cell phones to call other players to find out or everyone can look the person up on the internet or in the magazines. I would have liked to have been on the pool scene 20 or more years ago to see what it was like.

I think the difference in some of the tournament players and money players is that when you are playing for money you get instant reward. You win one set and you have some money. Granted you may play all night, but the adrenaline of instant winning or losing after each set. In the tournaments you have to win a number of sets to win anything.

As for players not using drugs, there are some out there. Granted I don't have as much road experience as others. I have never even thought of using anything...but my required insulin since I'm diabetic, to play. And I have played for many hours at a time. I don't think it is needed but I know there are many out there who think it is.

Just my opinion.
Sarah
 
Keith you must have been a terror on the 7footers to scare mike off. Have you ever played efren on the bar boxes? if so how did you do?
 
Good to see you posting Sarah. I, like Keith, wish things were more like they were back then. Where I grew up, Jackson, Miss., everyone in the bars would bet $10-$20 a game. Not just the dozen or so local shortstops. Everyone. In fact, everywhere in the south was much the same.

I believe the bane of the present day player is, as you say, the cell phone. It takes no time to get a line on anyone.

If you would like to get the "Real" story of how it was, from a woman players point of view, the best person you could talk to would be Belinda Bearden-Campos-???. You know how that goes.
Belinda had more gamble than 90% of the shortstops in the country.

I spent a week in Kansas City in 1983, playing a few of the shortstops there and only made about $400 before they all quit. They called the local champion, Bennie Conway, who I knew and couldn't beat. I tried matching up with Benny but he wouldn't give up anything. Belinda had run all the shortstops off that would'nt play me, so she jumps up and plays me a $200 set.

Point being, Belinda had and probably still has a ton of gamble. I know she has many awesome stories of how it was for a girl player on the road............$Bill

P.S. Who won the set? Irrelevant, she had gamble.
 
Sarah/Hemi,

We've even had players here on AZ asking for a line on another player. There is little chance for a player to sneak up on other players now. I don't know if that's good or bad, all I know is that I love to watch a good money game when you don't know who is going to come out on top. Now, players have to be as good at handicapping as they are at playing the game.
 
True Rick. That's why Grady-Greg and my "Professor's" ring games are creating so much interest. Man,,,,that is real gambling..............$Bill
 
I was on a short road trip with 3 other guys. We decided to take a break and go get drunk at a Club somewhere in GA. Take a break from the poolrooms everyday!Low and behold they had 4 bar tables with a line 8 deep to play on each one. And every table was from $10 bucks.......up to $50 if ya got the right guys playing. But the bad part was we had a good buzz, and the tables were as unlevel as they could be.....and still have all 4 legs touching the ground! One table......one of the guys with me said watch this shot. He lagged the cue ball from the end rail....straight down the table, and it fell in the side pocket! We lost alittle the first night.....but we went back and made a few bucks!
 
hemi,

that is strange that you mention Belinda. At the last pro tournament we had to take a 2 and a half hour shuttle to the venue. On my shuttle were Ewa, Vicki, Shari, Alice Rim, Susan Mello and Belinda. Belinda and I got to talking about the whole gambling aspect of the game. Before that conversation, I knew nothing but the professional side of her game. She really did have some great stories and it was a very interesting conversation. She had many stories about Laurie Shampo and the action that she stirred up. It was very interesting and good to hear about women who also do stuff like that.

Sarah
 
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