more difficult is not necessarily better....

Jaden

Jaden

"no buds chill"
Silver Member
I have to say that tables that are more difficult to play on are not necessarily better. Mysefl and another player/poster were having a discussion earlier tonight and we were discussing the fact that diamond tables like to spit out balls. He made the comment that diamonds are the great equalizer, that is they make it more difficult for the better player to dominate the lesser player. I don't think this is the case, but it's possible and that is for one reason.

This player was also saying that playing on a diamond with 4.5" pockets is more difficult than playing on a GC with 4" pockets and that I have to say is just wrong. I can understand how it could be interpreted that way and although I'm beating around the bush, I AM getting to it.

The answer is that, yes, at certain angles and speeds the diamonds like to eject balls... This is a problem though. This doesn't mean that you have to be a better player to win on diamonds. Because after thinking about it, these sh6ts that were missed were actually hit IN THE POCKET. These were good hits. I mea, how can anyone expect a pocket to not accept a ball if you hit it within the pocket facing. There should be no table that rejects a ball at any speed if it is struck so that it lands in between the two facings, yet that happens on a diamond table from time to time.

You learn over time to adjust your play and not hit certain balls at certain angles as hard, but I think that that takes away from the game and doesn't do the game justice. I have a table that is put together similarly to a GC and has four inch pockets and it plays more difficult than a diamond. I challenge anyone to come play on the table and say differently, but it also will accept a well hit ball at any speed. Diamonds will sometimes eject a ball that is struck as perfectly as one can from certain angles and I think that that is wrong.

I think that the best way for the better player to win is to play on one of Ernesto's modified 4 inch pocket GC's . And I think that the better player should be the one who wins, not the player who has adjusted their game to the way a table plays or rather is used to the way a certain table plays.

So is it the great equalizer, maybe it is, but is that a good thing. Not in my opinion.
 
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always have to adjust to the table

Jaden,

You are right that playing on a tougher table isn't necessarily better. If you play too much on that table without playing on others too you learn to shoot the shots that go in those pockets and that influences your choice of shots and shot speed. Go play on an easier table and you will play too conservatively.

However, a lot more than pocket width influences if a table will spit balls or not. The angle the facing is cut going into the pocket is critical as well as the condition the table is in. One of the worst tables I play on to spit balls back at me is an old Gandy. Thing has pockets the size of a number two wash tub but the plastic pockets are loose and shallow. You can hit the bottom of the pocket and have a ball sail back at you.

We always have to know how the individual table plays, sometimes the individual pocket. In an ideal world things wouldn't be that way but being able to learn a table fast is a major factor for any traveling man, be he gambling or shooting tournaments. In the summertime the air conditioning blows directly on some tables in my local room. Cold dry air hits one long rail while the other long rail stays considerably warmer and more humid. In the hottest part of summer when the AC runs almost nonstop it makes a big difference in how the two sides of those tables bank. A stranger playing one-pocket can get his clock cleaned before he figures out that every time he swaps pockets he has to remember how the opposite rail banks.

Hu


Jaden said:
I have to say that tables that are more difficult to play on are not necessarily better. Mysefl and another player/poster were having a discussion earlier tonight and we were discussing the fact that diamond tables like to spit out balls. He made the comment that diamonds are the great equalizer, that is they make it more difficult for the better player to dominate the lesser player. I don't think this is the case, but it's possible and that is for one reason.

This player was also saying that playing on a diamond with 4.5" pockets is more difficult than playing on a GC with 4" pockets and that I have to say is just wrong. I can understand how it could be interpreted that way and although I'm beating around the bush, I AM getting to it.

The answer is that, yes, at certain angles and speeds the diamonds like to eject balls... This is a problem though. This doesn't mean that you have to be a better player to win on diamonds. Because after thinking about it, these sh6ts that were missed were actually hit IN THE POCKET. These were good hits. I mea, how can anyone expect a pocket to not accept a ball if you hit it within the pocket facing. There should be no table that rejects a ball at any speed if it is struck so that it lands in between the two facings, yet that happens on a diamond table from time to time.

You learn over time to adjust your play and not hit certain balls at certain angles as hard, but I think that that takes away from the game and doesn't do the game justice. I have a table that is put together similarly to a GC and has four inch pockets and it plays more difficult than a diamond. I challenge anyone to come play on the table and say differently, but it also will accept a well hit ball at any speed. Diamonds will sometimes eject a ball that is struck as perfectly as one can from certain angles and I think that that is wrong.

I think that the best way for the better player to win is to play on one of Ernesto's modified 4 inch pocket GC's . And I think that the better player should be the one who wins, not the player who has adjusted their game to the way a table plays or rather is used to the way a certain table plays.

So is it the great equalizer, maybe it is, but is that a good thing. Not in my opinion.
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I would have to say that I disagree. I play on a diamond often with 4.5 inchers with fairly deep pockets. You are right they do spit out some balls but if you hit the ball pure even down the rail at high speeds the ball will drop. This is where you have to just plain falt out hit the balls like a champ, the better player won't miss the shot. I do get what your saying but if you think about it if you play great position it is fairly rare you have to fire in a ball.
 
when i bought my table and had it installed i wrestled with this same thing.......do i want super tight? super loose? in the middle? I ended up going with 4.25" pockets and i think it was perfect for me.....not everything drops but its not so tough that i cant get in rhythm.....when im shooting good im running racks, not having to worry about every shot or babying shots.
 
I rack balls said:
I would have to say that I disagree. I play on a diamond often with 4.5 inchers with fairly deep pockets. You are right they do spit out some balls but if you hit the ball pure even down the rail at high speeds the ball will drop. This is where you have to just plain falt out hit the balls like a champ, the better player won't miss the shot. So what should we do cut the pockets at the inverse angles like this / \ where the ball goes in from the top? I do get what your saying but if you think about it if you play great position it is fairly rare you have to fire in a ball.
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actually, the wider the angle of the pocket the more likely it is to rebound not go into the pocket, but you misunderstood my point. When you are sighting the shot you see the pocket in your peripheral vision, atleast I do. When you aim for the pocket and hit it, you expect it to go in. Don't get me wrong. I runout on diamonds too, but there are certain angles and certain speeds that just become ridiculous to try and make and you have to adjust your play as Hu was saying and I was saying. I understand that as it stands right now and the foreseeable future, you have to be able to adjust to any table and condition, I am just saying that I think that it is better to be able to make the ball when it goes to the plave where you are aiming. I am saying that with facings that are cut in a way ad tables that are designed in a way that they spit out balls when hit inside the facing, it is counter productive to developing good aiming habits. If I hit the pocket I think it should go in is all I'm saying. I personally find it more difficult to run out and play on a tighter GC than a diamond. I am not saying that they are more difficult. I am saying that when you hit the visually sighted pocket whether it be on a diamond or a loose GC with wide facings and it bounces out of the pocket. That's wrong. Oh well, whatever. to each his own.....


Let me put it this way. You have to be just as accurate if not more accurate to pocket balls on a 4" GC than a 4.5" Diamond, but on the GC when you're looking at the pocket, you can easily tell how accurate you have to be. Ona diamond, you can't.
 
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So how would a 4.5" GC compare to a 4.5" diamond? I completely understand what you are saying and I still think it boils down to you just have to hit the ball better whether it be at a better speed or with a sharper aim. I actually prefer diamonds because they spit balls out, I know not many balls fall that are struck poorly.................. so you are saying that the pockets should be like a valley barbox with almost no shelf? hehe JKJK :D lets see what others think.....................
 
I haven't had that experience with Diamonds at all. On a well prepared Diamond table, if the first vertical surface a ball hits is INSIDE the points (on the facing) at any speed, it will fall. If you brush the cushion outside the points (or the point) on the way in, the ball probably won't fall, unless it's rolling slowly. If just one Diamond table is treating you like that, it might have been assembled incorrectly.

On the other hand, compared to some of the giants that read this board, I'm just a banger. I stand ready to be corrected.
 
not quite true

David Beck said:
The better player will still win in the end on any table. I think this is more an issue of strategy than anything else.
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The better player should win on any table. However, the more peculiar the table is the more the "home field advantage" is and often the better player can't catch up. Just knowing how to check a table is an indication of some speed so many people choose to learn as they go. If the local player is even close to the speed of the better player and knows the table he may well get the cheese. I always figure homefield advantage as worth a ball or two on anything but first class equipment in a well laid out and well lit place. In some places it is worth more.

Hu
 
The pocket size isnt so much the problem for me, its that the slate extends to far back into the pocket, When I first started playing I used 2 1/4 balls on a 5x10 and I did FIRE many balls in from all angles, but when you get a table with the slate protuding into the pocket so far, its not that is tough, its just a very bad design... Id rather have 4" pockets than 4.5 with the extended slate.. Olhousen is the table Im speaking of, and I do care for them at all...

The Brunswick GC the pockets are to big, but the slate is right, I want one shimmed to 4" whitch is plenty big..

SPINDOKTOR
 
RunoutalloverU said:
Good players play good on anything and everything, if your not playing good on a table its your fault, not the tables.
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the better player will adjust faster and thus win more. Its not the table its the player. Dont care how the facings are cut or how tight the pockets are, I will take the better player everytime.
 
TXsouthpaw said:
the better player will adjust faster and thus win more. Its not the table its the player. Dont care how the facings are cut or how tight the pockets are, I will take the better player everytime.
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What also makes a better player is the "ability to adjust" key word there is "ADJUST"! I don't care what table you play SVB 10 ball on, from a Sears table to a Diamond ProAm with 4" pockets...he's going to ADJUST, and when he does, you're going to PAY!!!:D

Glen
 
realkingcobra said:
What also makes a better player is the "ability to adjust" key word there is "ADJUST"! I don't care what table you play SVB 10 ball on, from a Sears table to a Diamond ProAm with 4" pockets...he's going to ADJUST, and when he does, you're going to PAY!!!:D

Glen
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thats exactly what im saying. Your a very smart man RKC
 
I'm not sure some of you are understanding what I'm saying.

TXsouthpaw said:
the better player will adjust faster and thus win more. Its not the table its the player. Dont care how the facings are cut or how tight the pockets are, I will take the better player everytime.
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I'm not saying that you don't have to adjust or that the better player won't adjust faster etc.....

I'm only saying that I feel that shelves that are so deep that the pocket will reject relatively well struck balls takes away from the game. I had two 12 ball BNR's on the tables I'm talking about yesterday, so it's not that I can't adjust. Joey, if you don't believe that, ask Andre, I'm pretty sure he was watching since I was playing his friend from out of town at the time. I'm just sad that the need to adjust exists. It would be nice if there were only one type of table. J.K.

I mean for those of us who are serious about the game, it would suck to have to have a wherehouse and buy five different tables to practice on. With eight different CB's. I'm lucky right now in that I get to travel all over the U.S. and play in different conditions, i.e. high humidity, no humidity. Diamonds, brunswicks, olhausens. Even eight foot nine foot, I stay away from bar boxes and prefer to stay away from eight footers.

But for the average player who's serious, it is a big disadvantage especially if they mainly practice on their own table at home. I guess they can get out there and find the different places, but I still feel it should be unnecessary.
 
Jaden said:
I'm not saying that you don't have to adjust or that the better player won't adjust faster etc.....

I'm only saying that I feel that shelves that are so deep that the pocket will reject relatively well struck balls takes away from the game. I had two 12 ball BNR's on the tables I'm talking about yesterday, so it's not that I can't adjust. Joey, if you don't believe that, ask Andre, I'm pretty sure he was watching since I was playing his friend from out of town at the time. I'm just sad that the need to adjust exists. It would be nice if there were only one type of table. J.K.

I mean for those of us who are serious about the game, it would suck to have to have a wherehouse and buy five different tables to practice on. With eight different CB's. I'm lucky right now in that I get to travel all over the U.S. and play in different conditions, i.e. high humidity, no humidity. Diamonds, brunswicks, olhausens. Even eight foot nine foot, I stay away from bar boxes and prefer to stay away from eight footers.

But for the average player who's serious, it is a big disadvantage especially if they mainly practice on their own table at home. I guess they can get out there and find the different places, but I still feel it should be unnecessary.
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While you're at it, include that all tables should have the same kind of cloth, even the same color. And why stop there, every player should have the same cue as far as that goes:rolleyes:

Glen
 
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