More elbow dropping nonsense
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
List out the misinformation. I'm bored and can't drive anywhere... so I'll keep hitting refresh until I get your response.
Have you changed any other aspects of your game during those years? If so, do you think those other changes might have had a bearing on your improvement?
YEAH! That business about: "How can your tip go through a cue ball??? That is Physically impossible" is totally BS.
JoeyA
As far as my mechanics, my stroke and my personal eye patterns. But I made the changes at different times, so I can be fairly certain that each change contributed to improvement in my game at different times. Not to mention the fact that when I find myself in a slump, a couple of hours rebuilding the stroke pattern can bring me right back up again.
Steve
Excellent post Neil ... the best I've read in a while.
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
I'm not really sure why I am typing all this out, but here it is. For those of you that can't read long posts, quit now, because this is bound to get a little long.
What is one of the main keys to playing good? Repeatability. So, what do you think the first thing an instructor is going to teach someone? Yes, repeatability. Now, the instructor can stick around for a few years and watch his student shoot thousands of balls until his mind finally gets trained to do it the same way, no matter what way that is, OR, the inst. can teach a simple way to be repeatable and accurate in the stroke. And, do it in a few hours. Which should he do?? (If you really don't know the answer to that, stop reading now, you are too stupid to play pool, or to do much else.)
The pendulum stroke is easily taught, and is extremly repeatable and reliable. When set up properly, you hit the cb with a level stroke at impact, and right where you want to hit it. You are not hitting the cb while on an upswing as some have stated. If you are, you aren't doing it right, go see an instructor.
It has been mentioned numerous times that you seldom see the top pros not dropping their elbow. This is true. You also seldom see them drop BEFORE contact, although some do. It seems to be the consensus on here that that means that you should drop your elbow. Let's think about that for a minute..... when did the pendulum swing really come into play? Not very long ago. When did the top players start playing? A long time ago. This wasn't even an issue when they were learning! So, how did they learn? By shooting thousands and thousands of shots. You can learn the same way too. (not a very time effecient method, though)
They, the top pros, have learned repeatability the hard way, over time. Doing that, they each have little and some have large idiosyncracies to their stroke that works FOR THEM. To try and repeat their strokes, can easily be a HUGE waste of time. If we should only copy them, why don't more people try and play like McCready or Bustamente, argueably two of the best players?
Many of the top players also jump up in the air when they break. Does anyone really think that is a good thing to do? It has been proven over and over that it is not, and adds NOTHING to the break. (except a lot of problems if you don't have your timing just perfect.) Remember what your mothers taught you? Just because Timmy is jumping off a bridge doesn't mean you have to do it too! There's a lot of wisdom in that if you bother to think about it.
It has been stated that you can't get proper followthrough with a pendulum stoke. Again, if you can't follow through for 1/1000 of a sec, (all the time the tip is on the cb) you better quit now. The ONLY reason for any follow through is to not stop the stroke. You want the tip going smoothly until contact. All the pendulum stroke does is alter where your followthrough goes AFTER contact. It does not minimize it in the least.
If you drop your elbow BEFORE contact, you are much more prone to not hitting the cb where you intend to. Hence, the up and down swings in play that many players suffer from. If one muscle is a little tight, it changes where you hit the ball. Dropping your elbow before contact introduces the shoulder muscles into play. Just something else that can go wrong. Why not eliminate as much as possible that can go wrong??
What many of the top players have learned over trial and error is that if you extend your cue along the shot line on the follow through, it really helps you keep the stroke straight on the way to the cb. The mind finds it easier to make everything work properly with a longer line to work with than just the few inches to the cb.
NO ONE is saying that method doesn't work, or is bad. If it works for you, great! However, there is an easier way to achieve the same results, yep, the pendulum stroke. The top players are not going to change what took them many years to ingrain into their subconscious to achieve the same results. That would be rather foolhardy. But, when you are learning, or even if you have been playing a long time and DON'T have a repeatable stroke, the pendulum stroke is an easy way to get one. The fewer moving parts you have, the less can go wrong.
It has been wrongly stated that you can't get enough power with a pendulum stroke. And that you can't get anything put a dog-break with it. Baloney. I have make 8 out of 9 balls on the break with a pendulum stroke. When Scott and I played, right after the first break of mine, he started laughing and said "And people say you can't get a good break with a pendulum stroke!" First off, the break is not so much about power, as it is about accuracy and a good rack. Just ask Donnie Mills, or Corey Duel. And, you can get all the power you need for ANY shot that comes up during a game.
Many times, when you have an experienced player, and he/she tries to shift over to a pendulum stroke, they have problems. ANY time you try and learn something you are used to doing a new way, you have to give it time to erase the old way of doing it, and ingrain into your subconscious the new way. How long that takes, varies with the individual. Even after you have the new way ingrained, sometimes the old way still creeps in. It took me the better part of a year to finally let my subconscious go and trust it enough to stroke correctly when I switched over to a pendulum stroke. And, the old way still creeps in now and then and messes me up.
Once you get to the poiint of NOT thinking about your stroke, but letting your subconscious stroke it, the pendulum stroke is a VERY effective tool! Many players reach a plateau, and can't seem to get any better. I feel there are two main reasons for this- they do not have a repeatable stroke, and/or they really don't pay attention to just what is happening when they shoot a shot. The don't know just where they hit the cb, where the cb hit the ob, and where the cb went after contact with the ob, and what speed was used. Not KNOWING those things, you can't possibly duplicate and expand on them.
Another thing you will see a number of top pros do, is to do their warmup strokes with the tip on the cloth well before the cb. They have the natural talent, and years of experience to bring the tip up precisely to where they want it on the final stroke. If you don't have their natural talent, or years of experience, good luck with that. So, is that also something we should all do just because they do it? Are there better ways to accomplish the same end result? Busty looks like he is using an old water pump when he strokes. Should we copy that move too? Why not? The pros do it. Mainly, because we aren't them.
We don't have the natural talent, or the time to invest as they have done. We have to use whatever methods we can to shorten the time it takes, and to make things as easy as possible. The pendulum stroke really helps the fundamentals and repeatablity. Aiming methods can really help in their area. Kicking systems in theirs, ect.
But for some to get on here, and make statements that they have about the pendulum stroke, only shows how little they do know about it, and about the general concepts of pool, what works and why it works.
Nobody is saying that dropping your elbow is bad, or that you can't play good that way. If it works reliably for you, keep doing it your way. But, if you find that you are not reliable, try the pendulum stroke. It is a much easier way to get repeatability. And, that is what this game is all about. There's not much point in learning how to get the cb to do what you want it to do if you can't hit it where you want to. Thinking you hit the cb in one spot, and actually hitting it in another only puts into your subconscious something that is wrong. Then, when you DO hit the cb where you want to, you get a different reaction out of it, and get all confused and lose confidence in yourself.
Neil -
Long post, but you only repeated what's been said in this thread. No misrepresentations anywhere. No one said the pendulum stroke was bad (I'm pretty sure), a few of us are merely saying dropping your elbow after contact ISN'T bad. In fact, it's a natural motion of the momentum of the stroke.
Since you said in your post that contact is made 1/1000 of a second and dropping after contact isn't bad--- what does that tell you? That tells you at the moment of contact a pendulum-stroker vs. an elbow-dropper look identical.
I think the only thing that you and I aren't on the same page with is using a pendulum stroke while breaking (assuming you're not soft-breaking). If you're trying to break hard with a pendulum stroke, you'll never break as well as someone who isn't using a pendulum stroke. It looks goofy too, imo.
Basically, you had a long post stating that the pros never had the instruction we have which is why they drop their elbows--- but in the preceding paragraph--- the ball's already gone, so it doesn't matter anyway. I doubt many (if any) pros drop pre-contact.
I see a lot of guys on here talk out of both sides of their mouths:
1) if you drop the elbow it requires SUPERB timing (but how does it when the ball's already gone? 1/1000 of a second, remember?)
2) Those who use the pendulum stroke hit the CB where they wanna.
*COUGH* *ULLSH!T* *COUGH*
Regardless of what "follow-through" you use (to the chest or elbow-drop), hitting the CB precisely where you want it comes from years of playing, end of story. Pendulum stroking doesn't mean you're stroking straight automatically--- there are lots of variables that stray one off course.
Anyways, that's my take. It's not a difference in stroking-- it's a difference in follow-through.... and it's a moot difference at that because the ball's already gone. I made this thread because it was confusing to keep hearing people knock those who drop their elbows on their follow-through. The pros do it because it's the "move" in many cases, not because they had zero instruction and whatnot. They prefer to send their hand down the line versus to their nipple - I don't blame them.
I understand it's the best way to teach. Those who learn it will make it their own and as they progress into more of a power game - their tiny little elbows will start dipping too over time
I'm still looking for the misrepresentations in this thread, though. The biggest one so far is you can break just as hard with a pinned elbow. The other is that pendulum strokers hit the CB where they wanna (compared to non-pendulum strokers). I know for sure that's baloney. If you take a random sample of each you'll find 90% of each group (of the same experience) are just as inaccurate as the next. That's developed over time.
The funny thing is you and I are saying the same thing - but you seem like a pendulum commercial and I'm questioning why the repeatability thing has any bearing whatsoever on this discussion when each player looks the same at impact and then, uh oh... ball's gone anyway.
Dave
Long post, but you only repeated what's been said in this thread. No misrepresentations anywhere. No one said the pendulum stroke was bad (I'm pretty sure), a few of us are merely saying dropping your elbow after contact ISN'T bad. In fact, it's a natural motion of the momentum of the stroke.
Since you said in your post that contact is made 1/1000 of a second and dropping after contact isn't bad--- what does that tell you? That tells you at the moment of contact a pendulum-stroker vs. an elbow-dropper look identical.
I think the only thing that you and I aren't on the same page with is using a pendulum stroke while breaking (assuming you're not soft-breaking). If you're trying to break hard with a pendulum stroke, you'll never break as well as someone who isn't using a pendulum stroke. It looks goofy too, imo.
Basically, you had a long post stating that the pros never had the instruction we have which is why they drop their elbows--- but in the preceding paragraph--- the ball's already gone, so it doesn't matter anyway. I doubt many (if any) pros drop pre-contact.
I see a lot of guys on here talk out of both sides of their mouths:
1) if you drop the elbow it requires SUPERB timing (but how does it when the ball's already gone? 1/1000 of a second, remember?)
2) Those who use the pendulum stroke hit the CB where they wanna.
*COUGH* *ULLSH!T* *COUGH*
Regardless of what "follow-through" you use (to the chest or elbow-drop), hitting the CB precisely where you want it comes from years of playing, end of story. Pendulum stroking doesn't mean you're stroking straight automatically--- there are lots of variables that stray one off course.
Anyways, that's my take. It's not a difference in stroking-- it's a difference in follow-through.... and it's a moot difference at that because the ball's already gone. I made this thread because it was confusing to keep hearing people knock those who drop their elbows on their follow-through. The pros do it because it's the "move" in many cases, not because they had zero instruction and whatnot. They prefer to send their hand down the line versus to their nipple - I don't blame them.
I understand it's the best way to teach. Those who learn it will make it their own and as they progress into more of a power game - their tiny little elbows will start dipping too over time
I'm still looking for the misrepresentations in this thread, though. The biggest one so far is you can break just as hard with a pinned elbow. The other is that pendulum strokers hit the CB where they wanna (compared to non-pendulum strokers). I know for sure that's baloney. If you take a random sample of each you'll find 90% of each group (of the same experience) are just as inaccurate as the next. That's developed over time.
The funny thing is you and I are saying the same thing - but you seem like a pendulum commercial and I'm questioning why the repeatability thing has any bearing whatsoever on this discussion when each player looks the same at impact and then, uh oh... ball's gone anyway.
Dave
Neil I like your posts but that one was definitely a teal deer. I did skim it enough to read something about pocketing 8 out of 9 with a still elbow.
I can't buy anecdotes, I really need video proof of that. Besides, the 9 ball rack has like 3 wired balls even if you just gently caress them >_< ...though I'll admit making all of em on the same break is rare for me, and making 7 or 8 of them is one in a million.
How's a still elbow fare when it comes to spreading everything nicely in a full 15-ball rack?
Neil I like your posts but that one was definitely a teal deer. I did skim it enough to read something about pocketing 8 out of 9 with a still elbow.
I can't buy anecdotes, I really need video proof of that. Besides, the 9 ball rack has like 3 wired balls even if you just gently caress them >_< ...though I'll admit making all of em on the same break is rare for me, and making 7 or 8 of them is one in a million.
How's a still elbow fare when it comes to spreading everything nicely in a full 15-ball rack?
Let's start a list of players who break with a pinned elbow. Here, I'll go first.....
1) Neil
ps. I read the 8/9 too but ignored it. Dr. Dave was prob like, "Oh mah God - you go Neil! 8 out of 9 woohoo *high five*"
I'm j/k Dr. D. I only picked on ya cause I like ya.
Last edited:
... only if the elbow drop occurs before CB contact (either intentionally or not).
Many people drop their elbow before CB contact on power shots (e.g., power draw and break). Some people also tend to drop their elbow prematurely on follow shots. Haven't you ever seen somebody miscue over the top of the ball when attempting a follow shot, especially with power? To help counteract the tip rise due to elbow drop, some people line up in the set position with the tip below the desired contact point, especially with power shots. With the break shot, some people also lift their body and use a more choked-up grip (forward of perpendicular). These things also help some people generate more cue speed (e.g., with a break shot). Since you like links so much, more info on this particular topic can be found here:
... only if they don't raise or drop their elbow on the way to the CB, and assuming the tip is where they want it in the "set" position, and assuming they don't "swoop" the stroke on the way to the CB.
Regards,
Dave
PS: I'm not impressed by Neil's anecdotes ... only his information and how he presents it.
Neil-
You say, "Why introduce anything (like the drop) that could possibly screw you up?"
Short of dropping pre-contact, it's just not possible. If the shot got screwed-up, it wasn't the drop 100%. Right? I'm just trying to extrapolate this point from you and a few others. The "repeatability" thing is not unique to pendulum strokers. A dropper is a pendulum stroker who follows-through differently, that's all. I could introduce doing a back-flip after contact and if the ball missed, it wasn't the back flip
I believe that you're a powerful pendulum follow-through-er. I'm not knocking pendulum stroking at all. I understand the science behind it. I also understand the mechanics of the alternatives. Everyone in the thread agrees a premature drop is horrible. Outside of that, I think people should experiment and always keep an open mind. People will find one works better than the other. I don't think pendulum follow-throughs should be the rule, rather--- just a great suggestion.
Good post,
Dave
You say, "Why introduce anything (like the drop) that could possibly screw you up?"
Short of dropping pre-contact, it's just not possible. If the shot got screwed-up, it wasn't the drop 100%. Right? I'm just trying to extrapolate this point from you and a few others. The "repeatability" thing is not unique to pendulum strokers. A dropper is a pendulum stroker who follows-through differently, that's all. I could introduce doing a back-flip after contact and if the ball missed, it wasn't the back flip
I believe that you're a powerful pendulum follow-through-er. I'm not knocking pendulum stroking at all. I understand the science behind it. I also understand the mechanics of the alternatives. Everyone in the thread agrees a premature drop is horrible. Outside of that, I think people should experiment and always keep an open mind. People will find one works better than the other. I don't think pendulum follow-throughs should be the rule, rather--- just a great suggestion.
Good post,
Dave
Or, rotate their upper arm while the elbow is pinned, resulting in sideways motion. (maybe that's what you meant by swoop?)
... not true. A premature drop is very common with extreme power shots (e.g., Mike Massey draw) and power breaks (where the body also often lifts). However, I would agree that premature (and post-CB-contact) elbow drop is not required for typical pool shots. Although, there is nothing wrong with a post-contact elbow drop, provided it happens after CB contact, and not before sometimes by accident.
Regards,
Dave
Last edited:
Yep ... that's a type of "swoop."
There are lots of things that can go wrong with a stroke, whether you drop your elbow prematurely, after CB contact, or not at all.
Regards,
Dave
I meant during normal stroking/play. Almost everyone drops early while breaking (if not soft-breaking). Conversely, just as an elbow drop isn't required for typical shots--- neither is a hand to the chest.
Dave