More english with a heavy cue?

[dr_dave]

Actually, the cue could stop dead immediately after contact without “passing through” the CB at all and there would be no difference in CB action - assuming your stroke up to that point is the same. Only what happens up to and including contact matters to the CB.

This is true from a theoretical perspective, but from a practical perspective, follow through is very important to achieve the desired CB speed, as described in detail here:

Pool Stroke Follow Through Effects

Regards,
Dave

 

[xXGEARXx]

Actually, the cue could stop dead immediately after contact without “passing through” the CB at all and there would be no difference in CB action - assuming your stroke up to that point is the same. Only what happens up to and including contact matters to the CB.

pj
chgo

I think you mean in theory, I don't know what you mean. No one plays the game that way, and if they did, they would probably play poorly.

Not to mention, what does "contact" mean? Seriously, explain that one. Do you mean after the tip fully compresses, or just half, or just the crest at the focal point? Which is it?

 

[xXGEARXx]

That's true if it is moving at the same speed along the same path. It will also impart more speed. Or, you can move the lighter stick slightly faster.

I would call it velocity, being that it is speed plus direction, but WHATEVER.

A heavier cue will create more force, which thus creates more pressure upon impact (P=F/A), which then would create more "english". All things being equal. A lighter cue traveling slightly faster will not produce the same effect. Actually, it would - depending on the velocity.

This is why these discussions get weird. How much faster? How much slower? How much heavier? How much lighter? There would be a threshold limit that could be reached if enough effort was used to test this with equipment that was sensitive enough to record differences. A massive difference would be easily seen. Slight differences would start to blur and that's where the precision of the equipment matters.

Although, in theory, this is worked out quite easily.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

This is true from a theoretical perspective, but from a practical perspective, follow through is very important to achieve the desired CB speed

Yes, but as you know, it's not the follow through itself that makes a difference, but how it affects the stroke up to contact. I think it's important to our understanding to make that distinction.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

A heavier cue will create more force

Your arm creates the force - if your arm creates the same force, both cues will too.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

This is true from a theoretical perspective, but from a practical perspective, follow through is very important to achieve the desired CB speed, as described in detail here:

Pool Stroke Follow Through Effects

Yes, but as you know, it's not the follow through itself that makes a difference, but how it affects the stroke up to contact. I think it's important to our understanding to make that distinction.

Agreed. The follow through is an indicator of a good stroke, not the cause.

Regards,
Dave

 

[xXGEARXx]

Your arm creates the force - if your arm creates the same force, both cues will too.

pj
chgo

No kidding, lol. Let's try this another way. What changes if the Force is the same but the mass of the object is different upon impact of another object? Anything change at all patrick?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

What changes if the Force is the same but the mass of the object is different upon impact of another object?

Sounds like you're confusing force with speed.

Different weight cues moving at the same speed will deliver different amounts of kinetic force to the CB (heavier = more).

Different weight cues moving with the same kinetic force will, of course, deliver the same kinetic force to the CB - but they'll have to be moving at different speeds to do so.

Any difference in the kinetic forces of the moving cues must have been produced by differences in the force applied by the cueing arm - different amounts of arm force are needed to move the different cues at the same speed.

pj
chgo

 

[xXGEARXx]

Sounds like you're confusing force with speed.

Different weight cues moving at the same speed will deliver different amounts of kinetic force to the CB (heavier = more).

Different weight cues moving with the same kinetic force will, of course, deliver the same kinetic force to the CB - but they'll have to be moving at different speeds to do so.

Any difference in the kinetic forces of the moving cues must have been produced by differences in the force applied by the cueing arm - different amounts of arm force are needed to move the different cues at the same speed.

pj
chgo

https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/impact-force-calculator.php

Start plugging in values and see what happens to impact force. Put in any values you want, but only change the body mass of the object. Keep the rest the same. What happens?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

https://www.gigacalculator.com/calculators/impact-force-calculator.php

Start plugging in values and see what happens to impact force. Put in any values you want, but only change the body mass of the object. Keep the rest the same. What happens?

What do you think disagrees with anything I've said?

By the way, however the force is created, more force doesn't = "more spin" in pool terms. That's a function of spin-to-speed ratio, which more force alone doesn't increase.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

... thus creates more pressure upon impact (P=F/A), which then would create more "english". ...

Actually, the pressure created is irrelevant. If you want more pressure use a harder tip.

The spin created is the given by the time integral of the torque applied. The torque is determined by time integral of the force and the lever arm. Changing the hardness of the tip will not change the time integral of the force, it will cause the peak force to go up or down and the duration of the force to go down or up.

 

[straightline]

I would call it velocity, being that it is speed plus direction, but WHATEVER.

Thank you for bringing this up. I used "vector", meaning "velocity".

The vector to spin ratio varies somewhat with the speed of stroke. A human shooter using only a free swing will experience only the default zone of the cue weight. IOW safety bunts and rail nurses differ from break shots.

P & B JJ going [nonquote] the equation clearly indicates...[/nonquote]
Frankly I think the pigheaded application of Newtonian math to what are manifestations of quantum states is getting old.

 

[xXGEARXx]

Thank you for bringing this up. I used "vector", meaning "velocity".



P & B JJ going [nonquote] the equation clearly indicates...[/nonquote]
Frankly I think the pigheaded application of Newtonian math to what are manifestations of quantum states is getting old.

Well, it is a vector measurement though, LOL....

 

[xXGEARXx]

Actually, the pressure created is irrelevant. If you want more pressure use a harder tip.

The spin created is the given by the time integral of the torque applied. The torque is determined by time integral of the force and the lever arm. Changing the hardness of the tip will not change the time integral of the force, it will cause the peak force to go up or down and the duration of the force to go down or up.

All true, but there has to a "thing" that is causing the torque in the first place on cue ball spin - that is the impact force. There absolutely is pressure created upon impact - with a smaller diameter tip, it would actually create more of it.

 

[Bob Jewett]

All true, but there has to a "thing" that is causing the torque in the first place on cue ball spin - that is the impact force. There absolutely is pressure created upon impact - with a smaller diameter tip, it would actually create more of it.

Well, yes, but, it will create a larger pressure over a smaller area on the cue ball so the actual force -- which is area times pressure -- could be exactly the same time profile.

Again, it is a pointless distraction to concentrate on the exact amount of time that the tip is in contact with the ball and the exact pressure and the exact force and the exact force-versus-time profile. All of that disappears in the "wash" of doing the time integral of force. Those details are unimportant. In the end the only things that make a real difference are the eccentricity of the tip contact, the velocity of the cue stick at impact and the weight of the cue stick.

 

[dr_dave]

Actually, the pressure created is irrelevant. If you want more pressure use a harder tip.

The spin created is the given by the time integral of the torque applied. The torque is determined by time integral of the force and the lever arm. Changing the hardness of the tip will not change the time integral of the force, it will cause the peak force to go up or down and the duration of the force to go down or up.

If people want more info on this topic, see:

cue tip hardness effects

Enjoy,
Dave

 

[straightline]

So much ado when tip, cue, stroke don't matter.

:shrug:

 

[Philip Green]

I know about the formula for energy ,but does a heavier cue allow for me stored energy in the form of spin? That energy is released upon ball or cushion collision.

with practice, one can get accustomed to a cue of any weight. You
will learn to adjust your stroke as necessary to achieve the range of cue speeds appropriate for different
shots. The only shots for which cue weight can make a significant different are power shots (e.g., an extreme
power draw, or the break shot)

 

[xXGEARXx]

Well, yes, but, it will create a larger pressure over a smaller area on the cue ball so the actual force -- which is area times pressure -- could be exactly the same time profile.

Again, it is a pointless distraction to concentrate on the exact amount of time that the tip is in contact with the ball and the exact pressure and the exact force and the exact force-versus-time profile. All of that disappears in the "wash" of doing the time integral of force. Those details are unimportant. In the end the only things that make a real difference are the eccentricity of the tip contact, the velocity of the cue stick at impact and the weight of the cue stick.

Agreed....