More Scratch Tournaments

Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So last week I ventured out to a poolroom I don't normally frequent for their weekly scratch tournament. It's a tiered entry fee with short races so weaker players find it fun and stronger players see it as a solid opportunity to make some money. My gf also plays and much to my surprise, she's been itching to go again more than I am. She lost both of her matches last week but it was her efforts that makes her want to go back and try again.

That's when it dawned on me. Scratch tournaments aren't necessarily for the benefit of only strong players. There were weaker players scattered throughout the event that viewed it as the ultimate way to get better and as a grand opportunity to prove themselves. Yes, the odds of my gf actually turning a profit at the end of the year are slim but it's costing her 10 a week and she's getting more than her money's worth in table time.

In an age where leagues dominate and tournaments are often handicapped with better players getting left out, I honestly believe we've forgotten the value and intrigue in the scratch tournament. Although beating a great player under any pretense is exciting, beating that same player even-up is unforgettable and invaluable. If done well with low and/or tiered entry fees, a strong following can easily be attained. Only during this event did I realize that this is what pool truly should be like. Handicaps have their place and should always exist but open scratch tournaments should not be reserved for high entry professional events.


Just my thought of the day.


Jude M. Rosenstock
 
I have always encouraged young learning players to enter those weekly "scratch" tournaments. Usually the entry fee covers the time spent on the table, even if you lose two and out. So, there's not a great deal to lose. Instead, there is a great deal to learn about playing against someone you don't know, playing and observing a tournament atmosphere, handling pressure and self-observation during a tight match, seeing how other people handle pressure, watching more skillful players etc. All these things are something you can prepare your student/girlfriend/etc, but he/she has to go through them all by him/herself. Playing in a tournament is a totally different thing than playing on a practice table...

Good post Jude M. Rosenstock !
 
I was involved in a conversation just the other night and was talking about the advantages of playing better players in tournaments. Its how I (and most players) started learning and getting a desire to improve in this game.

The thought of a tiered entry fee never crossed my mind, what a great way to get lower level players into the scratch tourney's!

Great post.

woody
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
So last week I ventured out to a poolroom I don't normally frequent for their weekly scratch tournament. It's a tiered entry fee with short races so weaker players find it fun and stronger players see it as a solid opportunity to make some money. My gf also plays and much to my surprise, she's been itching to go again more than I am. She lost both of her matches last week but it was her efforts that makes her want to go back and try again.

That's when it dawned on me. Scratch tournaments aren't necessarily for the benefit of only strong players. There were weaker players scattered throughout the event that viewed it as the ultimate way to get better and as a grand opportunity to prove themselves. Yes, the odds of my gf actually turning a profit at the end of the year are slim but it's costing her 10 a week and she's getting more than her money's worth in table time.

In an age where leagues dominate and tournaments are often handicapped with better players getting left out, I honestly believe we've forgotten the value and intrigue in the scratch tournament. Although beating a great player under any pretense is exciting, beating that same player even-up is unforgettable and invaluable. If done well with low and/or tiered entry fees, a strong following can easily be attained. Only during this event did I realize that this is what pool truly should be like. Handicaps have their place and should always exist but open scratch tournaments should not be reserved for high entry professional events.


Just my thought of the day.


Jude M. Rosenstock
Click to expand...


I mostly agree, except I think handicaps have no place and should not exist. ;) :p


Step up and play I say. Handicaps are phony and I don't understand the fascination of all the handicapped leagues. I know, I know, jillions of people love them etc....
 
Hey, Jude,

Would you explain how this tournament works a little better (ten weeks?, different entry fees, etc).

Tanks
 
Hi Jude,

Up here in the north parts of New York, we've been running a tour similar to the one you visited. Players rated "B" and below pay a $30 entry. Players rated "A" pay $50. Players rated "AA" pay $80. "AAA" players pay $100. If a player finishes in the top four spots in three events, they pay an extra $25 per event entry. All players except "AAA" play to seven games. "AAA" players play to eight. An average forty two player event has roughly twenty "B", ten "A", eight "AA" and four "AAA" players. The "A" & "B" players can contribute to their own purse with the top finishing player winning the pot. It works very well. With one exception, they accepted the ratings per the players home room manager. One guy slipped in at a lower rating in three years! He still didn't win. The one complaint is, who is rated what? Players always feel they are over-rated. It took a while to get everyone comfortable with the format. "B" players still fill the most entries. None has ever won overall.
 
Skeezicks said:
Hey, Jude,

Would you explain how this tournament works a little better (ten weeks?, different entry fees, etc).

Tanks
Click to expand...


Hey Skeezicks,

The tiered entry fee is very simple. There are three tiers ($30, 20 & 10). Professional players pay 30, mid to high level amateurs pay 20 and mid to low amateurs pay 10. This particular tournament is double-elimination with a cut-off of 16 players. Only the top two are paid.

Another great aspect about the tournament is that the amount you pay is a private issue between you and the tournament director. Even though in this case it is public record, it doesn't really matter in the sense that it doesn't affect the outcome of the event.


On a side note, my gf unfortunately went 2 and out again yesterday, having drawn Frankie Hernandez on the losers' side. Ten bucks and she got to play Frankie even-up for real. You gotta like that.



Jude M. Rosenstock
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
On a side note, my gf unfortunately went 2 and out again yesterday, having drawn Frankie Hernandez on the losers' side. Ten bucks and she got to play Frankie even-up for real. You gotta like that.

Jude M. Rosenstock
Click to expand...
Hey Jude, I'm a D player who hates handicaps. I am relatively new to the game but I seem to be improving faster than other D players in my league. One of the reasons, I think, is that they "play the handicap" rather than the table. They are always satisfied in hiding behind the spot. This league thing is a recepie for mediocrity; so I'd be interested in knowing more details about where your girlfriend plays the scratch tournament and how to get in it. Like you, I live in New York City. I feel I am missing tougher competitive situations in my pool diet. Thanks a bunch.
 
I'm speaking of the weekly tournament at Master's Billiards in Queens. If you're taking the subway from Manhattan, take the 7 train to 40th Street and walk two blocks. It's opposite the train tracks from MacDonald's. It's every Wednesday. Free tabletime for tournament players before the tournament. Be there by 8pm though you might want to get there earlier to insure a spot. Play doesn't seem to start until about 9pm. See Sean Morgan (aka Alaska).


Jude!
 
lewdo26 said:
One of the reasons, I think, is that they "play the handicap" rather than the table. They are always satisfied in hiding behind the spot. This league thing is a recepie for mediocrity;
Click to expand...

Dead on. I totally agree. I just started playing a year ago and have been improving rapidly because I refuse to take this mentality. Some people on my team have been playing for years and have not improved one bit because they are so comfortable with their rank.
 
Thanks Jude!

Thanks Jude and everyone for responding. You know, when you said your girlfriend played Frankie, I was guessing Master Billiard. That's where I saw him beat Hiroshi Takenaka at the Big Apple 9 ball. The place has quickly become the most important venue in New York. Way more precious than that ABC... Plus it's the only place I know that also has snooker and 3C tables all in one room. I never understood why the pool world is so segregated from snooker and 3C. Anyway, thanks a lot!
 
lewdo26 said:
I never understood why the pool world is so segregated from snooker and 3C. Anyway, thanks a lot!
Click to expand...


That's a good question so I'll give you a good answer. I've been affiliated with a few rooms. Some had varieties similar to what you find at Masters and some didn't. The reason why some rooms choose not to carry anything but pool has more to do with space and what they're willing to allow more than anything else. Chelsea Billiards was NYC's largest room during its time and although 3c is more popular than snooker in these parts, our snooker following greatly exceeded the numbers generated for 3c. This had to do with the fact that if you played snooker, you went to Chelsea. There were 8 snooker tables and you knew that you likely didn't have to wait very long. 3c on the otherhand was a different story. Since there were only 2 tables, the club never made much money off of them. Most of the serious 3c players went elsewhere.

The fact is, in order to have a successful business in carrying variety, you really need to have enough of each to create a following. 3 or 4 tables isn't going to do it. You really need 8 or more. Clubs like Amsterdam Billiards & Bar and Corner Billiards rely heavily on pool with their leagues and tournaments. It would be suicidal if they replaced any of their tables with snooker or 3c. They simply don't have the space to make it worth it.

My home room is Amsterdam Billiards & Bar right now and although I like what Master's has done for NYC's pool community, I'm not about to switch rooms all of a sudden. Amsterdam still has superior equipment and a safer environment. I like the fact that when my gf is practicing and I wanna go home, I can without a second thought. I do like visiting though and plan on going more often. I'm really getting more and more interested in one-pocket and that seems to be the place for it.


Jude
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
That's when it dawned on me. Scratch tournaments aren't necessarily for the benefit of only strong players. There were weaker players scattered throughout the event that viewed it as the ultimate way to get better and as a grand opportunity to prove themselves. Yes, the odds of my gf actually turning a profit at the end of the year are slim but it's costing her 10 a week and she's getting more than her money's worth in table time.
Click to expand...

There might actually be some tournaments worth playing in here in Arizona if only some of the players here would have the same thought dawn on them. :D
 
lewdo26 said:
Thanks Jude and everyone for responding. You know, when you said your girlfriend played Frankie, I was guessing Master Billiard. That's where I saw him beat Hiroshi Takenaka at the Big Apple 9 ball. The place has quickly become the most important venue in New York. Way more precious than that ABC... Plus it's the only place I know that also has snooker and 3C tables all in one room. I never understood why the pool world is so segregated from snooker and 3C. Anyway, thanks a lot!
Click to expand...

Hey, Lewdo, hope you're well.

First, Spin City (approx Queens Blvd and 49th), which is a ten minute walk from Master Billiards, also has pool, snooker and three cushion tables.

As for Master Billiards being more precious than Amsterdam Billiards, I must strongly disagree. With thirty Gold Crown 4 tables, two Tri-State tour events every month, and, what I believe to be, the biggest league in the country, Amsterdam Billiards remains the jewel of NYC competitive pool.

I will, however, agree that Master Billiards has improved its profile locally, runs a nice weekly tournament, and is a far better room than it was prior to its renovation about two years ago.
 
Good points

Hi Jude and SJM, good to have read your responses. Jude makes a good point from the business side as to why snooker and three cushion tables are usually absent in poolrooms. Though I do not know where snooker players in this city, such as Raymond Fung go to practice and play. I might also venture to speculate that rooms like ABC realize that serious players is not necessarily where the money is. Even if there was the possibility of creating a forum for serious snooker and three cushion players, would it be as profitable as the 8 ball party crowd?
Master Billiards has so far been the place where I've noticed the most knowledgeable and genuine billiards culture alongside significant numbers of players. ABC's billiards culture seems to be more diluted because they also do all they can to attract recreational types. And that's ok, I guess. It isn't a matter of choosing one room over the other. I do play league at ABC and should continue to do so for now. It is, without a doubt, an important venue for reasons that SJM well described. Still, there is nothing like the feel of walking into a room where one pocket, golf, and three cushion are all being played simultaneously! And that room in New York seems to be Master Billiards.
SJM, I will pay more attention to Spin City from now on. How does Jean Balukas' room in Brooklyn fare in respect to the issues we've been discussing?

Happy holidays to you both and to all forum members.
 
lewdo26 said:
SJM, I will pay more attention to Spin City from now on. How does Jean Balukas' room in Brooklyn fare in respect to the issues we've been discussing?
Click to expand...

Lewdo, if you go and play the Thursday evening tournament at Hall of Fame Billiards in Brooklyn on a week where Jean is in town (call in advance to find out), you'll not only get to play with some good players, but you'll get to meet Jean Balukas and Gerda Hofstatter, both of them former world champions. You won't find the field to be as strong as the one at Master Billiards, but you'll have a nice time playing in a nice room and you'll enjoy the bottom floor, which gives tribute to all the BCA Hall of Famers.

By the way, what is your league night at ABC?
 
sjm said:
Lewdo, if you go and play the Thursday evening tournament at Hall of Fame Billiards in Brooklyn on a week where Jean is in town (call in advance to find out), you'll not only get to play with some good players, but you'll get to meet Jean Balukas and Gerda Hofstatter, both of them former world champions. You won't find the field to be as strong as the one at Master Billiards, but you'll have a nice time playing in a nice room and you'll enjoy the bottom floor, which gives tribute to all the BCA Hall of Famers.

By the way, what is your league night at ABC?
Click to expand...
Hey, SJM. I'm definitely going to pick a Thursday to go play at Balukas'. Getting to see her will also be quite an honor, naturally. I've played ABC this season on Wednesdays, but in the 8 ball league, which is less than satisfactory due to the handicap system. However, as I'm sure you'll agree, for now I should get a taste of everything and play whenever the opportunity arises. I'll allow myself to be more picky when I'm running racks consistently. I think I spotted you playing Jennifer a week ago, but I wasn't sure and felt intimidated to ask. Will you go to DCC?
 
lewdo26 said:
Hey, SJM. I'm definitely going to pick a Thursday to go play at Balukas'. Getting to see her will also be quite an honor, naturally. I've played ABC this season on Wednesdays, but in the 8 ball league, which is less than satisfactory due to the handicap system. However, as I'm sure you'll agree, for now I should get a taste of everything and play whenever the opportunity arises. I'll allow myself to be more picky when I'm running racks consistently. I think I spotted you playing Jennifer a week ago, but I wasn't sure and felt intimidated to ask. Will you go to DCC?
Click to expand...

Check your private messages, Lewdo.
 
I have been out of the competitive pool loop for a lonnnng while, so forgive my ignorant question........ Why doesn't Jean Balukas play professionally today? In my day and hers, she was friggin' unbelievable and then just stopped playing. Thanks.
 
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