I've had two people who know pool and said they knew Willie and saw him play NINE BALL and said he was also the best nine ball player that ever played the game. What do I know? I was just a baby when they played.
JoeyA
mosconi or greenleaf?
- Thread starter Winne2tough
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I've had two people who know pool and said they knew Willie and saw him play NINE BALL and said he was also the best nine ball player that ever played the game. What do I know? I was just a baby when they played.
JoeyA
Of course we'll never know "for sure" what's your high run?
This is something that I ponder frequently. Of course we'll never know "for sure" but who cares? It's a fun exercise no matter who you like. Another guy that supposedly had incredibly high "unofficial runs" was Babe Cranfield. Seems like I heard or read in his straight pool book that he ran somewhere around 700. But I DON'T know the size of the table. (hard to do on a 2x4 ft table
)
I think one of the reasons we are so caught up in these comparisons at least for me, is we just don't play the game ( straight pool) like they did. It was THE game to decide who was better. Running a 100 balls was as common as a 6 pack in 9 ball. Still incredibly difficult but didn't seem that big of a deal. EVERYONE was doing it (figuratively speaking) I know I can't get anywhere near 100 balls right now and I've got about as much chance putting together a 6 pack! but I digress...
The skill required to run balls like that and on a BIG TABLE... is hard for me to comprehend.
which leads me to this question: What is your high run and on what size table? be honest now...:thumbup:
This is something that I ponder frequently. Of course we'll never know "for sure" but who cares? It's a fun exercise no matter who you like. Another guy that supposedly had incredibly high "unofficial runs" was Babe Cranfield. Seems like I heard or read in his straight pool book that he ran somewhere around 700. But I DON'T know the size of the table. (hard to do on a 2x4 ft table
)I think one of the reasons we are so caught up in these comparisons at least for me, is we just don't play the game ( straight pool) like they did. It was THE game to decide who was better. Running a 100 balls was as common as a 6 pack in 9 ball. Still incredibly difficult but didn't seem that big of a deal. EVERYONE was doing it (figuratively speaking) I know I can't get anywhere near 100 balls right now and I've got about as much chance putting together a 6 pack! but I digress...
The skill required to run balls like that and on a BIG TABLE... is hard for me to comprehend.
which leads me to this question: What is your high run and on what size table? be honest now...:thumbup:
This is something that I ponder frequently. Of course we'll never know "for sure" but who cares? It's a fun exercise no matter who you like. Another guy that supposedly had incredibly high "unofficial runs" was Babe Cranfield. Seems like I heard or read in his straight pool book that he ran somewhere around 700. But I DON'T know the size of the table. (hard to do on a 2x4 ft table
I don't think it's in the book but I'm too tired to go look. His run was in Syracuse, New York on a 4 1/2 x 9. Over 700 was the way I heard it.
that's incredible but I believe it
If true, maybe that was because he knew Mosconi didn't gamble, at least after he became a tournament and Brunswick exhibition player, and therefore wouldn't take him up on it.
I'm old enough to have met and talked to many players who knew and played with Greenleaf as well as Mosconi. To a man they liked Ralph a lot better than Willie, but that's for personal reasons. As far as comparing the two players, it was almost unanimous that Greenleaf was the better player. I was told he handled pressure better and was a better competitor overall. He did not get fazed by anything while in a match - something that could not be said for Mosconi, who might let anything (like someone lighting a cigarette) get to him.
The old time players also felt that Greenleaf had a little more ability; better cue ball control and better shot making. He also knew how to break up the balls better than anyone else, and work the clusters. I heard players like Earl Shriver, Marcel Camp, George Rood, Don Willis, Al Coslosky and Joe Procita talk about the relative strengths of both players. They just didn't hold Mosconi with the same reverence they had for Greenleaf.
When the old timers talked about the best players, they would usually give the nod to Greenleaf with James Evans a close second.
The old time players also felt that Greenleaf had a little more ability; better cue ball control and better shot making. He also knew how to break up the balls better than anyone else, and work the clusters. I heard players like Earl Shriver, Marcel Camp, George Rood, Don Willis, Al Coslosky and Joe Procita talk about the relative strengths of both players. They just didn't hold Mosconi with the same reverence they had for Greenleaf.
When the old timers talked about the best players, they would usually give the nod to Greenleaf with James Evans a close second.
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I don't think he was particularly calling Mosconi out, it was just a general challenge to all players. I've heard from a good source that quite a few pros took him up on it and they all lost. They said his cue ball control and shot selection was impeccable.
Jay, as you well know, most pool players in Mosconi's era hated him as they felt he sold out. He got a paycheck from Brunswick every week while most other good players were about starving to death. They all challenged him to gamble as they knew he wouldn't with the contract he had and then they would brag how Mosconi wouldn't play them. If he ever would have said yes they would have got sick to their stomach. This is the main reason that I don't put much merit in what most of the competition have to say about him. I have never seen Ralph play so I can't really say who was best but, for me, it was Willie. Just how old is Hal that he says he used to watch and travel with Ralph so much? If he is 90 years old, which I doubt, he would have been in his early teens, 13 or 14, when Ralph was in his hay day or just starting to decline.
Dick
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Well, we'll never get a definitive answer to this one. People were arguing Greenleaf vs Mosconi when I was a kid (a long time ago!).
But here's a question I haven't seen discussed - did Greenleaf gamble? What did the old-timers say about that? I haven't read that he did or didn't.
It's not enough to say that nobody would play him because you can always handicap - points on the wire, or 50 no count or something.
But here's a question I haven't seen discussed - did Greenleaf gamble? What did the old-timers say about that? I haven't read that he did or didn't.
It's not enough to say that nobody would play him because you can always handicap - points on the wire, or 50 no count or something.
Back in Jersey there was an old timer by the name of Sam "One Poke" Fauver. He played Mosconi and many of the good and great players thru the '20s to the '50s. He never played Greenleaf but saw him many times and i once asked him who played better Mosconi or Greenleaf.He said Mosconi was the better player but Greenleaf beat everybody because he could out safe them all. So there is a pickem!
Well written! Judging by his book money was the reason Willie Mosconi kept playing. Far as personalities go most people go for the party (Greenleaf) and hate the guy who shows up and beats everyone without yukking it up (Mosconi).
Judging from the comments it sounds like Mosconi was a perfectionist like Strickland and the personalities show.
Mosconi's book did say that Greenleaf had the best position and shot making touch of any professional he played.
Greenleaf gambled on a regular basis (he used to go to James Evans room in Harlem and gamble with him); Mosconi did not, or at least not after he became a World Champion. Only game I ever heard of Willie playing for money was with Nicky Vacchiano and he beat him for the cash giving up big weight.
Back in Jersey there was an old timer by the name of Sam "One Poke" Fauver. He played Mosconi and many of the good and great players thru the '20s to the '50s. He never played Greenleaf but saw him many times and i once asked him who played better Mosconi or Greenleaf.He said Mosconi was the better player but Greenleaf beat everybody because he could out safe them all. So there is a pickem!
I've heard something similar.
I guess I would ask, all other things being near equal, who are you going to bet on: the guy who is likely to show up for the match half bagged, or the guy who'd show up stone cold sober and was so intense about winning, he'd bite on his tongue during a match until it bled?
Lou Figueroa
Back in Jersey there was an old timer by the name of Sam "One Poke" Fauver. He played Mosconi and many of the good and great players thru the '20s to the '50s. He never played Greenleaf but saw him many times and i once asked him who played better Mosconi or Greenleaf.He said Mosconi was the better player but Greenleaf beat everybody because he could out safe them all. So there is a pickem!
OK, I'll pull this one out.
Danny McGoorty (from Bob Byrne's book McGoorty) was a pool hustler turned three cushion player. Ralph was his friend and drinking buddy and idol. In Byrne's book, Danny says "Mosconi, I have to say, was the greatest pool player of all time, much as I admired Ralph Greenleaf."
Of course, this settles nothing, just another opinion.
It doesn't settle anything but that statement swayed me even more. A drinking buddy never throws his other drinking buddy under the bus unless he refuses to buy a round.
JoeyA
LOL!! And, you would know that how???
Once upon a time; a time very long ago.... there was a young man who enjoyed regularly tossing back a few.......
JoeyA
well i shook mosconi's hand and got a hug...so i think he is the best
I'll bet you weren't about to play him in an exhibition match.
Don willis vs. Mosconi
Read a book called the Lions and The Lambs. They state Don willis beat mosconi when he was doing exhibitions for brunswick. Don willis seems intriguing, dont know to muck about him. Mosconi states in his autobiography that he would sometimes allow players to run the balls because he figured they would miss. Guess he would break open the stack and he didnt know what hit him when willis was shootin. Thought i would bring this match up. Did anybody ever know alot about don willis? Heard he was the unknown lion who went on the road with the likes of luther lassiter.
Read a book called the Lions and The Lambs. They state Don willis beat mosconi when he was doing exhibitions for brunswick. Don willis seems intriguing, dont know to muck about him. Mosconi states in his autobiography that he would sometimes allow players to run the balls because he figured they would miss. Guess he would break open the stack and he didnt know what hit him when willis was shootin. Thought i would bring this match up. Did anybody ever know alot about don willis? Heard he was the unknown lion who went on the road with the likes of luther lassiter.
Here's a link that tells you about Willis:
http://www.gcaba.com/willis.htm
I don't doubt that he beat Mosconi in an exhibition, and I'm sure he wasn't the only one. Willis didn't play in tournaments, so we have only the legend to go on.