Mosconni Cup needs a major change to stay relevant.

[sjm]

It's not the population or funding. If it was China would be world dominate (though they do produce world class players). USA would now have a hard time against Poland, Germany, UK, Finland, Russia and maybe even Greece.

Here is your enemy. Eliminate this and all we be right in the world.
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Definitely a factor, but hard to measure to what extent.

 

[AtLarge]

If the USA could win a few more lags it might change the outcome completely. In a short race it is a very important shot. Very often winning the lag is the difference between winning or losing a short race.

Updating a post from last year:

Not a bad idea. In the past 9 years of the Mosconi Cup:​

• Of the 146 matches played, the winner of the lag won 91 of the matches (62%).​

• The team that won the Cup won the majority of the lags 6 times, tied with the team that lost the Cup twice, and lost the majority of the lags once.​

But I agree with what sjm said 3 posts up: "It's not about chemistry, teamwork or winning more lags (the usual annual excuses) but about raising the level of American play in a sustainable way."

 

[buckshotshoey]

I noted that the US has done quite well at doubles over the years, even in the recent lean years. It is in singles where the US has been terrible, and it's not because of lack of teamwork. By your reasoning, we've had good teamwork as we've always held our own at doubles despite sending a weaker team than Europe year after year. You've suggested that we lack teamwork, but I've contended that our solid play in doubles suggests otherwise.

All that said, it is in singles where we've been dominated over the past decade or so, and why we're nearly never in position to win, and that's got nothing to do with teamwork.

If the US is to return to being consistently competitive in the Mosconi, it needs to own the fact that it lacks the players. It's not about chemistry, teamwork or winning more lags (the usual annual excuses) but about raising the level of American play in a sustainable way.

It's not anything I can prove on paper. It's the feeling I get when I see the Europeans play doubles together. They seem to meld to each other. I dont get the same feeling watching USA play doubles.

 

[Quesports]

Updating a post from last year:

Not a bad idea. In the past 9 years of the Mosconi Cup:​

• Of the 146 matches played, the winner of the lag won 91 of the matches (62%).​

• The team that won the Cup won the majority of the lags 6 times, tied with the team that lost the Cup twice, and lost the majority of the lags once.​

But I agree with what sjm said 3 posts up: "It's not about chemistry, teamwork or winning more lags (the usual annual excuses) but about raising the level of American play in a sustainable way."

As your stats show the lag is important and certainly sustainable. Assuming all tables and conditions do vary it is even more important to practice lagging at the event. If possible on the playing table as well..

It was quite apparent to me a couple years ago when we got beaten. That year our lag win percentage must have been dismal. I remember watching it and screaming at my monitor.
Practice Lagging The Damn Ball!!!

Oh well. Thank you for the stats and I would agree that SJM is correct in his overall analysis...

 

[buckshotshoey]

As your stats show the lag is important. It was quite apparent to me a couple years ago when we got beaten. That year out lag win percentage must have been dismal. I remember watching it and screaming at my monitor. Practice Lagging The Damn Ball!!!

Oh well. Thank you for the stats and as always SJM is correct in his overall analysis..

I did the same thing

 

[sjm]

It's not anything I can prove on paper. It's the feeling I get when I see the Europeans play doubles together. They seem to meld to each other. I dont get the same feeling watching USA play doubles.

Thanks for sharing that. You are a very informed observer of pro pool, so your opinion matters a lot here.

Guess I'm pretty stubborn on the matter of the Mosconi. I always get the sense that when we focus on the intangibles of performance for Team USA at the Mosconi, we divert our attention from the real problem holding us back, which is sustained failure to develop a stream of top professionals in America in the recent past.

By the way, I'm bullish on Tyler Styer for 2022. He beat Josh Filler in singles at the 2021 Mosconi and he took Josh to the double hill, losing 11-10 at the World Games. In each case, Tyler played great pool. He's in solid form of late.

 

[buckshotshoey]

Thanks for sharing that. You are a very informed observer of pro pool, so your opinion matters a lot here.

Guess I'm pretty stubborn on the matter of the Mosconi. I always get the sense that when we focus on the intangibles of performance for Team USA at the Mosconi, we divert our attention from the real problem holding us back, which is sustained failure to develop a stream of top professionals in America in the recent past.

By the way, I'm bullish on Tyler Styer for 2022. He beat Josh Filler in singles at the 2021 Mosconi and he took Josh to the double hill, losing 11-10 at the World Games. In each case, Tyler played great pool. He's in solid form of late.

I cant remember which Mosconi it was, but it was the first time Woodward and Bergman played together. They really fit well together. But do know they had a lot of previous experience playing doubles together.

 

[penguin]

Guess I'm pretty stubborn on the matter of the Mosconi. I always get the sense that when we focus on the intangibles of performance for Team USA at the Mosconi, we divert our attention from the real problem holding us back, which is sustained failure to develop a stream of top professionals in America in the recent past.

USA professional pool went all-in on Shane Van Boening at the expense of every other player that could have been cultivated towards becoming world-class.

And it will continue to pay the price for that mistake for many years to come.

 

[buckshotshoey]

USA professional pool went all-in on Shane Van Boening at the expense of every other player that could have been cultivated towards becoming world-class.

And it will continue to pay the price for that mistake for many years to come.

I dont understand this. Shane paid his dues, he did his homework. He isnt stopping anyone else from doing the same. I guess you'll have to explain that one to me.

 

[sjm]

USA professional pool went all-in on Shane Van Boening at the expense of every other player that could have been cultivated towards becoming world-class.

And it will continue to pay the price for that mistake for many years to come.

I'm not sure I understand this point. In what sense is this true? If you're saying that the US threw all of its money and instructional resources at Shane alone, that's really not accurate, but if you mean it in a different sense, please clarify. How have resources been diverted away from other professionals in a manner that compromised their developmental opportunities?

 

[Nick B]

The teamwork thing is a myth. It is in singles that the US has consistently played itself out of Mosconi contention over the last dozen or so Mosconi Cups. Not a lot of teamwork involved in singles. Actually, the record of the US is much better in team matches than in singles.

Last year, it seemed like the US was giving up 50 Fargo points on average per match. There's no amount of teamwork that will cover that spread.

This year, the US may well be up (Fargo in parentheses), against Filler (836), Gorst (827), Sanchez-Ruiz (825), Shaw (819) and Ouschan (821). On paper, this looks very one-sided, even if the five members of Team Europe all give each other the silent treatment.

As one who has attended many Mosconi Cups, I can't say I've seen more teamwork in one team than the other. On the other hand, the European fans exhibit a level of support and enthusiasm for the event that is otherworldly, even when the event is played in America.

Does home field matter for Team USA? For prestigious events having good prize money, I'd have to say no for 2022 year to date. At Derby City, Filler won the 10-ball, Sanchez-Ruiz won the 9-ball, and Gorst won bank pool and one pocket. At the Arizona Open, Gorst won. At the Wisconsin Open, Kazakis won. At the Las Vegas Open, Zielinski won. At the World 10-ball, Szewczyk won. At Super Billiards Expo, Shaw won. In 2022, there's little evidence that home cooking is worth anything to American players.

The US can win, but it won't be easy.

Well said. No amount of hugging will make up this skill gap.

 

[sjm]

I cant remember which Mosconi it was, but it was the first time Woodward and Bergman played together. They really fit well together. But do know they had a lot of previous experience playing doubles together.

In a typical pool year, we see doubles just twice: a) at the World Cup of Pool, and b) at the Mosconi Cup.

Skyler always had good chemistry in doubles with his friends, specifically Bergman, Thorpe and Shane. Of the three, the one he has the greatest chemistry with is Shane, as they have played as a team at the World Cup of Pool several times as well as at the Mosconi.

 

[Nick B]

Isn't it 2 wins each the last four years?

Isn't the overall series tied, or only a one year separation?

Sure Europe went on a long run, but the US did before that.

Not sure how much closer you want it. The format (Short Races/alternate breaks) does a fine job of keeping it competitive.

Every year the same threads pop up about how much more dominant everyone is than the US. and how Europe could field 27 teams that would give our team the orange crush. It is a pool exhibition. Our boys will be fine.



Eliminate those and you stamp out the last hope of pool in this country.

This is like the old Stripper and Cocaine analogy. She needs the Coke to get on stage. She needs the $ from "dancing" to pay for the coke. This type of play promotes poor mechanics and fundamentals. From there you are done. Starting at 21 is TOO LATE! This drink = pool culture is not going to win. Leagues also are only there as profit vehicles for League Owners and Area Operators. They are like Stuffed Animal Prizes at the Carnival. They would rather you lose but letting you spend $20 to get a $2 prize is OK with them.

 

[AtLarge]

The teamwork thing is a myth. It is in singles that the US has consistently played itself out of Mosconi contention over the last dozen or so Mosconi Cups. Not a lot of teamwork involved in singles. Actually, the record of the US is much better in team matches than in singles. ...

Ok, you forced me to provide some more stats.

The Mosconi Cup has been played 28 times. After the first 12 (1994-2005), the score was 10-2 USA. Then, in 2006 they played to a tie (why did they allow that to happen?) For the last 15 Cups (2007-2021) the score was 12-3 Europe. So let's look at that long 15-year period in which Europe has dominated. Here are the results for singles, doubles, and teams matches (USA's wins first), a total of 256 matches over those 15 years:

Singles -- 49 - 87 (USA winning percentage 36%)​

Doubles -- 44 - 61 (42%)​

Teams -- 7 - 8 (47%)​

Total -- 100 - 156 (39%)​

​

Over that 15-year period

In singles, USA scored more points than Europe just once, was outscored 12 times, and tied twice.​

In doubles, USA scored more points than Europe 4 times and was outscored 11 times.​

[The split in the 5-person teams matches was as even as it can be, but combining those 15 matches with the doubles matches to get an overall "team" or non-singles result doesn't do much for the USA winning percentage (moves it less than 1 percentage point), and it is only 1 player per team per game anyway (i.e., no real teamwork during each game).]

So, yes, USA has fared better in doubles than singles, but they have actually done quite poorly in both.

 

[AtLarge]

In a typical pool year, we see doubles just twice: a) at the World Cup of Pool, and b) at the Mosconi Cup.

Skyler always had good chemistry in doubles with his friends, specifically Bergman, Thorpe and Shane. Of the three, the one he has the greatest chemistry with is Shane, as they have played as a team at the World Cup of Pool several times as well as at the Mosconi.

Woodward and Van Boening have played a doubles match at the Mosconi Cup every year (and twice this past year) since Woodward's first year (2015). Their record is 4 wins and 4 losses.

 

[justnum]

Mosconi Cup is an established event. Keep it.

A new event to attract a different audience is needed. The top US pros are seen plenty, same for the Euros.

Matchroom wants the toughest conditions with the best players. Defining the best players with more specific stats or event wins or fan votes could be a promotional tool.

To qualify the best could mean fewest losses, or least innings to win or voted by the fans.

Its better with US losing. Americans have too much pride. Right now the Euros should celebrate winning as a team.

 

[West Point 1987]

The top European players (and many Asian players) start out with coaches, work through a complex series of certifications/qualifications to advance and continue to consult with coaches throughout their playing careers. Ours frankly don't. The approach to the game from start to finish is totally different. The OG players of old in the U.S. had gambling, the Road and countless local and regional tournaments and sponsors with deep pockets to work with, when the Euro players were still playing mostly pub leagues. Most of that action is dead, many of the open "tours" and tournaments are glorified Masters amatuer events, and there's no central organized body or pro tour to build on here in the U.S. The system that bore the Lassiter-era and the subsequent Strickland/Varner/Sigel-era and bred Mosconi Cup dominance has atrophied and all but died. Meanwhile, China and Europe created and nurtured a better system that is lucrative, sustainable and develops a more dominant class of player. That, and most of them are conditioned to work with coaches to stay on top. I would point out that when Team Europe's coach came over to the U.S. side, the players were the same but the results were dramatic. Interesting....

 

[Cuebuddy]

This is like the old Stripper and Cocaine analogy. She needs the Coke to get on stage. She needs the $ from "dancing" to pay for the coke. This type of play promotes poor mechanics and fundamentals. From there you are done. Starting at 21 is TOO LATE! This drink = pool culture is not going to win. Leagues also are only there as profit vehicles for League Owners and Area Operators. They are like Stuffed Animal Prizes at the Carnival. They would rather you lose but letting you spend $20 to get a $2 prize is OK with them.

View attachment 658397

I see your point as far as cultivating world class players. Leagues bring the game to many players who are interested in the game and have hope of getting better and having fun using the game as that vehicle. I have never lived even close to a area where being in a league was possible, but my children all live in cities and truly love their weekly attempts at making dad proud.

Yes money is at the center of that but most of the players that are involved never think of it that way.

 

[pt109]

As your stats show the lag is important and certainly sustainable. Assuming all tables and conditions do vary it is even more important to practice lagging at the event. If possible on the playing table as well..

It was quite apparent to me a couple years ago when we got beaten. That year our lag win percentage must have been dismal. I remember watching it and screaming at my monitor.
Practice Lagging The Damn Ball!!!

Oh well. Thank you for the stats and I would agree that SJM is correct in his overall analysis...

I agree about the lag….it’s not just winning the break, it’s showing the lack of preparedness.
…..watch any 3-cushion match…they’re trying to freeze it….they’re not just ’taking their turn’

 

[Fatboy]

The youth programs in Europe have helped them tremendously over the last 10-15 years. The fruits of their labor are starting to show up and we rot away……..