Muscle Memory/Upper Arm

D

DrCue'sProtege

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I posted this in another thread, but it sort of got lost in the back and forths, so i thought i'd start another thread.

I dont think i am ever going to keep that upper arm still and/or up. it is just way, way too natural for me to drop it some. the only time i can keep it there is when i use the Stroke Groover. and then its only because the Stroke Groover wont allow it to drop. the moment i take the strap off, down comes the upper arm. even if i make a conscious effort to keep it up there, it still drops some. i never bought this concept of "Muscle Memory" so i am afraid i'm going to be a dropper.

i guess i'll just have to learn to live with it. and as one instructor said, if you can deliver that cue tip straight through the aim line on a consistent basis, thats what really matters. i guess i'll just have to focus on that concept and forget about keeping the arm up/still.

DCP
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
i guess i'll just have to learn to live with it. and as one instructor said, if you can deliver that cue tip straight through the aim line on a consistent basis, thats what really matters. i guess i'll just have to focus on that concept and forget about keeping the arm up/still.

DCP
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I agree with you.

However, I do have a bit of personnel experience which makes me believe in muscle memory. Back when I was in highschool and playing soccer (probably the best shape of my life) our coach brought in a special speed training instructor. We timed ourselves in 40 yard dashes, then we started the speed training. The training consisted off huge 100ft elastic bands, you would secure one end against something sturdy and walk away from it to stretch out the band as much as you could. Then you turn around and run as fast as you can, the idea was the band propels you faster than you naturally run and sets your "muscle memory" higher. After a couple runs with the bands, we all re-tested ourselves on the 40 yard dash, everyones(18+ kids) time improved except one.
 
There is a thread that shows the stroke of all the pro players. Everyone drops their elbow some. I think there is some confusion about dropping the elbow and shoulder drop.
 
The only confusion is in not realizing that ANY movement of the elbow, up or down (even if it's a couple of inches) results in the stroke being initiated and manipulated by the shoulder...meaning overuse of the muscles, and less ability to deliver with perfect timing, using only the weight of the cuestick. This is not to say you cannot do it another way...but if you're struggling with consistency, this is almost a foolproof approach for many players.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

TheBook said:
There is a thread that shows the stroke of all the pro players. Everyone drops their elbow some. I think there is some confusion about dropping the elbow and shoulder drop.
Click to expand...
 
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There is no such thing as muscle memory. It's brain training. The muscles don't have any memory function. Muscles cannot remember anything. Every movement is new and is initiated by the brain.

My grandpa once changed the way he walked so I recently changed the way I walk. I used to walk with my feet splayed out, I landed on my heels and I grew huge, thick, painful callouses on the side of my feet ... now I don't. I decided to change. Now I consciously turn my feet in and land on the ball of my foot pushing off with the toes... with every step.

The same can be done with holding your arm up. You just consciously change the position of the arm at the beginning of the stroke and then keep it there. Just DO IT! You either consciously control your arm or you don't. You can't make the excuse that your arm refuses to do it because it has different muscle memory. That's just plain BS.

Sorry to be rude. That's just the way it is.
 
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Tap, tap, tap! Spot on Jim! There are many very well known instructors who teach this ideology (and not just BCA). We can't ALL be wrong, can we? LOL :D

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

JimS said:
There is no such thing as muscle memory. It's brain training. The muscles don't have any memory function. Muscles cannot remember anything. Every movement is new and is initiated by the brain. I recently changed the way I walk. I used to walk with my feet splayed out and now I don't. I consciously turn my feet in with every step. The same can be done with holding your arm up. You just consciously change the position of the arm at the beginning of the stroke and then keep it there. Just DO IT!
Click to expand...
 
Muscle memory is how I play pool. It is the automation of human reaction.... Your muscles do have a sense of memory. What that means is they can be trained to do a particular movement and when your brain and body come together as one it is referred to as natural or automatic. For someone to be bent down in the stance during your stroke is not a natural thing. You have to become comfortable with that position.
 
So, let me ask this question:

Lets say I would use the Stroke Groover for 60 minutes each day, doing nothing but stroking with that strap on and thereby eliminating the upper arm movement along with the elbow acting as a hinge. Lets say 60 minutes a day and also do this for an entire month.

But when i would take it off and hit a shot, i would drop the upper arm. Its as if the Stroke Groover did no good after all of that practice.

Why?

DCP
 
My perspective on these questions is that of a professional body-worker since 1987.

I have refrained from entering these discussions because my input would piss some people off.

Muscle memory is better characterized as neuromuscular memory. Some complex neuromuscular skills (memories) are inborn, like sucking and swallowing.

Others are developed as our proprioceptive sense matures along with the fineness of motor control of our muscles.

The brain's neurons instruct some muscle(s) fibers to contract to accomplish some task. The result is evaluated and repeated with appropriate adjustments in the brain's commands to the muscle(s) until the result is satisfactory.

Extended repetition of this task creates a neural engram in the brain.

Instead of agonizing over the correct placement of the laces with loops etc., as the toddler does, the adult invokes the engram "tie shoes" and the shoes get tied effortlessly, perfectly, below the level of conscious awareness.

These neuromuscular engrams inform much of our life and make it much easier. They free us to focus our conscious awareness on important things, like fine tuning and improving our stroke engram :-).


Now to piss some off: The quality of the stroke is inversely proportional to the involvement of the biceps brachii muscle.

In other words, the more fibers of the biceps that are active, the less likely the stroke will be delivered on a straight line.

The only muscle whose sole function is flexion of the elbow is the brachialis.

This muscle arises from the front, lower half of the humerus (upper arm). Its tendon crosses the elbow joint and attaches to the ulna just below the elbow joint.

The biceps brachii is a multi-function muscle. Its principal function is supination of the forearm ala driving a screw the old fashioned way.

Hmmm...Okay, it's also an elbow flexor. But wait , there's more.

Since it works across both the elbow AND the shoulder joints, it has still more duties.

The long head assists the deltoid in lifting the arm to the side. The short head pulls the arm toward the body, an action that usually involves the pec major as well.

As the speed of the stoke goes up, the unwanted actions of the biceps (supination and shoulder movement) become increasingly difficult to control.

The neuromuscular engram for atomic draw or the breakshot must be pretty complicated. I haven't grooved mine yet, but I get it just often enough to keep me trying.

Sorry if I droned on. Thanks for reading.

Pete
Occasional flashes of B
Too often in the slough of D
 
Just wanted to mention that tonight i got my digital camera out and video'd myself shooting a few shots. and i discovered two things:
1) on draw shots my elbow will collapse
2) on all the other shots it looked pretty good to me. at least alot better than what it was a long time ago until Scott Lee made me aware that the collapsing elbow could be a detriment to progress.

so, i guess as the cold winter months creep slowly into southern Indiana i am going to have alot to practice. starting to almost look forward to practicing 2-4 hours a day again.

DCP
 
AtLarge said:
So ... to summarize:

Emulate Mike Davis' stroke rather than that of pendulum strokers or elbow droppers!?!?

True? False?
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I don't advocate emulating anyone.

IF you want a straight pendulum stroke, maximize reliance on the brachialis and minimize reliance on the biceps.

This is no big deal on a two foot stop shot.

On a table length or more draw shot, the inevitable participation of the biceps is both a blessing and a curse. We are blessed w/more power and cursed with the tendency to supinate the forearm and pull the butt to the outside and turn the tip inside.

Oh, and the elbow will drop.:wink:

pete
 
Pete...Are you saying it's not possible to shoot a table length draw shot, without an elbow drop?

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

yankeepapa said:
I don't advocate emulating anyone.

IF you want a straight pendulum stroke, maximize reliance on the brachialis and minimize reliance on the biceps.

This is no big deal on a two foot stop shot.

On a table length or more draw shot, the inevitable participation of the biceps is both a blessing and a curse. We are blessed w/more power and cursed with the tendency to supinate the forearm and pull the butt to the outside and turn the tip inside.

Oh, and the elbow will drop.:wink:

pete
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yankeepapa said:
... The quality of the stroke is inversely proportional to the involvement of the biceps brachii muscle. ...
Click to expand...

Pete, I'm still curious as to your view of the quality of Mike Davis' stroke. Is he minimizing the involvement of the biceps brachii?
 
AtLarge said:
Pete, I'm still curious as to your view of the quality of Mike Davis' stroke. Is he minimizing the involvement of the biceps brachii?
Click to expand...

It's reliable, repeatable and accurate, for him. He plays world class pool with it. Seems high quality to me. The results certainly are.

Minimizing biceps? Beats me.

pete
 
one thing i noticed on my very short video was that my forearm wasnt perpendicular to the cue at the set position. seems like that is something i was told was necessary. but for me to get it there means i have to grip way back on the cue, off the irish linen grip. and that feels uncomfortable for me.

again, i doubt i ever get the mechanics that i probably should have. i think i am going to concentrate on delivering the cue tip straight through the aim line and let the chips fall where they may.

DCP
 
DCP:

it seems (to me) that you really know where your current problem is. From that what i read from you, the main problem is to get in the correct (and for your comfortable) set-up position (tip at CB, cue as level as possible...etc).
This is very hard to detect and correct for yourself. This is really a good example where i always recommend to work with an instructor who works with video! From my experioence i would say that it would take 2-3 weeks (for some less for other a bit longer) until you feel comfortable with it. On the beginning it might feel a bit *strange* or *wrong* to you, but very soon you ll see the advantages.
In my opinion 3-4 dates with an instructor over a time of 4-6 weeks should help you a ton here. And he can also show you, how to work on yourself.
As soon you understood it, it will be much easier.
Little example: an absolutley A+ Player (friend and instructor, too) played already 1st division here in germany(very hard league). So he was already a super player- then he met an instructor and saw how he taught pendulum stroke etc- and he changed it....it took him 8 weeks to burn it in.
half a year later he won german championships- and this saison he played straight pool like never before- He s in my age, middle of the 40s....so my friend, it s never too late-and anyway YOU would do this FOR YOU, you just need to want it :9

lg
Ingo
 
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