My theory on Deflection

[KRJ]

Yeah, not much of a price difference is a relative statement. Depends on how mad you are at your money or how deeply you're swimming in it.

I think this is a low deflection shaft. Forgive me if it isn't, I don't buy them because I don't like being robbed.


I think this isn't a low deflection shaft. But who knows maybe it is.

Both 5/16 x 18.


You young upcoming players have to stop listening to all this bullsh!t hype. Knowledge and practice improve your game not sales gimmicks.

$200 for a LD shaft. big whoop. A cue maker is gonna charge min $100. And some other cuemakers are gonna charge $200. Yet there are some in the $300 range.

My kids baseball bat cost $300. And he only gets one, maybe two seasons out of it.

My OB shaft will last for decades.

 

[poolguy4u]

Yeah, not much of a price difference is a relative statement. Depends on how mad you are at your money or how deeply you're swimming in it.

I think this is a low deflection shaft. Forgive me if it isn't, I don't buy them because I don't like being robbed.


I think this isn't a low deflection shaft. But who knows maybe it is.

Both 5/16 x 18.


You young upcoming players have to stop listening to all this bullsh!t hype. Knowledge and practice improve your game not sales gimmicks.

Well the cheaper shaft is probably made in Taiwan. Just needs a better tip and ferrule and will work fine.

$43 for that shaft is certainly on the high side.

Wish I could sell mine for that much.:smile:

 

[KRJ]

I understand where you were trying to go with this... but that is why I said "your average speed player"... John had THOUSANDS of hours of muscle memory to "unlearn"... whereas your average speed player has much less engrained time to overcome

And yet, there are many other pro's that picked up an LD and never looked back. And the best pool instructor on the planet (stan shuffet) uses an LD shaft, after decades of playing with maple. Everyone is different, everyone likes things a little easier for them.

Personally, on the closer range shots, using lots of english, I have to adjust ZERO on those type of shots, and I like that. Do I still have to adjust on the longer shot, yep. Do I have to adjust less. yep. So, personally, it could be considered a wash on the longer shots, but for the ones I never have to adjust... I just like it. I can think "less" which is always helps for folks that can't focus 100% after working all day, rushing home to eat dinner, and making it to league on time

 

[nineballsafety8]

And yet, there are many other pro's that picked up an LD and never looked back. And the best pool instructor on the planet (stan shuffet) uses an LD shaft, after decades of playing with maple. Everyone is different, everyone likes things a little easier for them.

Personally, on the closer range shots, using lots of english, I have to adjust ZERO on those type of shots, and I like that. Do I still have to adjust on the longer shot, yep. Do I have to adjust less. yep. So, personally, it could be considered a wash on the longer shots, but for the ones I never have to adjust... I just like it. I can think "less" which is always helps for folks that can't focus 100% after working all day, rushing home to eat dinner, and making it to league on time

I think the point you are strengthening is one of comfort... which I COMPLETELY agree with... if you are more COMFORTABLE with that shaft, then by all means, play your heart out. I just don't think it boils down to RESULTS.

There is absolutely ZERO evidence ANYWHERE that any given player from novice to Efren, when handed an LD shaft and given a full week to adjust to it, will be "x" amount more accurate... it is simply a falicy.

I think there may be an argument that if learning from no previous baseline that the learning curve with an LD shaft is less steep... I think that is a very valid argument. I think any beginner that can afford an LD shaft should certainly buy one, as they will pick up the game quicker, as they have less "feel" to learn.

My post was as it pertains to an AVERAGE or better player... that "gear hops" because they think "upgrading" to shaft "X" will improve their game... just not true.

 

[dr_dave]

Earlier today someone asked a question about LD and what characteristics lended themselves to makind LD... I responded, and after posting, I felt so passionate about what I said, I wanted to start a new thread to ensure as many people saw it as possible.

Curious as to what you all think of my opinion:

The concept of "avoiding deflection" is one that I find rather funny, and at one point, I bought into all the hype also... But

Yes there is a BUT

no shaft, ON EARTH, regardless of who makes it, or what fantastical mysterious material it is made of will guarantee 100% knowledge of how the cueball will react on any given shot... simply not possible.

The ONLY way to get CLOSE to that 100% confidence in KNOWING how the cueball is going to react when struck of center... is to do it, OVER AND OVER AND OVER

To prove this point, I had a cuemaker put on a 1" brass ferrule on one of my spare shafts... and let me tell you what a 13.2mm BRASS ferrule is freaking HEAVY!!!!
And I played with it, ALOT, for about a week... and guess what, I could run racks with it... with HUGE amounts of deflection... HUGE amounts, like a full ball and a half difference across the length of a table.

And I would challenge people to make a half ball hit cut shot, with inside spin to go 2 rails and get back up table... most everyone who tried, missed the object ball by ATLEAST a full inch.

What does this prove... NOTHING

Other than... buy a cue, and PLAY WITH IT!!!
after 8-10 hours a consistant play (assuming an average speed player), your game will adapt to your shaft and it won't matter AT ALL how much deflection your cue has... as long as you stick with your gear... you will get better, PERIOD

STOP BUYING SHAFTS, and HIT MORE BALLS!!!

Every shaft creates squirt (AKA "cue ball deflection"). One must adjust their aim differently with different shafts and with different types of shots. As you point out, with enough practice this can be learned intuitively. There are also systems that can be used for aim adjustment when using english.

A low-squirt shaft offers an advantage concerning squirt adjustment. The rationale behind this is described and illustrated in the following article: "Squirt - Part V: low-squirt cues" (BD, December, 2007).

Low-squirt shafts (AKA "low cue ball deflection" or "LD" shafts) definitely offer advantages, but they also have disadvantages for some people.

Regards,
Dave

 

[nineballsafety8]

Thank Dr. Dave!
Your input is always welcome, and greatly appreciated!
I also liked your video on testing LD tendencies in varying tips and tip heights!

 

[KRJ]

IThere is absolutely ZERO evidence ANYWHERE that any given player from novice to Efren, when handed an LD shaft and given a full week to adjust to it, will be "x" amount more accurate... it is simply a falicy.

.

Who here claimed that to be true?? It can't be a fallacy if nobody ever said that to be true. Some folks have a more difficult time adjusting using a lot of english. for me, using lots of inside english on a long shot to spin the cb 2 or more rails, I seem to get more rattles than a new born baby.

But that shot, even though it does not come up that often, nice to know I can hit it. Of course, there are TONS of guys/gals that can hit it with a good old fashion maple shaft... i'm just not one of them unfortunately

 

[CreeDo]

So... why doesn't SVB use an LD shaft?

Why doesn't Darren Appleton use a high-deflection shaft?
We could go around in circles naming pros who do, or don't use them.

The best players in the world have unbelievably consistent aiming, incredible mechanics,
near perfect tip placement. They adapt faster than anyone.
That's why John Schmidt can pick up a strange new cue and run 400 with it.

But what if you're not the best player in the world?
What if you're not even the top 100, or top 10,000?
What if you don't have time to play 8 hours a day, every day?

In that case, maybe you should purchase your cue based on how it handles
your imperfect aiming, and imperfect tip placement.
Maybe the top players don't need to worry as much about 'error tolerance' because
they don't make those small errors all the time, like we do.

BTW, an AZBer reviewed the R360 shaft, and said he aimed the same way he would
with his predator and OB cues.
You SURE it's an example of a high deflection shaft?

If you watch the TAR podcast between Corey Duel and John Scmidt...
John talks about how switching to the OB (which he loved), RUINED his game for almost TWO YEARS.
While he was able to run a 403 the same day he got the shaft... that was in Straight pool,
with minimal cueball moment, and LOTS of natural shape with pattern play.

If you truly believe it's 6-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other, then why does it sound
a lot like you're hating on LD cues, giving examples of how they "ruined" someone's game? :grin:

And if you are arguing "straight pool doesn't count" then you can't have it both ways.
You have to scratch mosconi and greenleaf off your list, because I could just as easily say
"sure, they played great with a high deflection cue... but that's in a game with minimal cueball movement,
and LOTS of natural shape with pattern play."

You have to scratch them off anyway, because they had no choice in the matter.
They played before these cues were invented.
It's like saying "if digital cameras are so great why didn't Alfred Hitchcock use one?"

--

Look, we know players can reach the highest level, in all games, using either type of cue.
So the argument isn't "buy an LD cue because this other guy uses it."

The argument is, the LD cue makes it a little easier to aim highly deflect-y shot,
like a long distance high-inside-3-rails-for-shape type of shot. And it might just provide
a little error tolerance.

For example, If you have to adjust your aim about 1 inch for deflection,
but you're only human and are aiming to hit the ball 10% too fat...
then you're going to hit 2.5 millimeters off on the object ball.
You might just get away with it, and make the shot anyway.

If you have to aim 3 inches off the no-english line of aim, and you
are aiming 10% too fat... now you're hitting 7 or 8 mm off. Probably a miss unless it's a hanger.

 

[JohnPT]

So... why doesn't SVB use an LD shaft?
best player in the world right... he would obviously play better with an LD shaft...

OR how about these
Greenleaf
Mosconi
Crane
Seagal
Buddy Hall
Strickland
Efren
Fats

ALL considered to be THE BEST at one point or another, in one or more games...

NONE of which EVER played with an LD shaft...

they just played... ALOT

Has anybody said you can't play great pool with a regular shaft? I don't think anybody said that.

I agree with what you said about being able to play with any shaft given enough time.

But now I want to ask you. Do you think it's a waste of time to pick a shaft that shoots straighter in the first place?

 

[genomachino]

They all play a little different.......

You just have to learn how the one you are using reacts on each and every type of shot.

What I like about the low deflection shafts is there is not as much adjustment to make. Also they play pretty consistent when you order the same one as long as the width is the same.

But on the same hand it creates new problems that you never had before.

They can be overcome from repetition.

 

[nineballsafety8]

Has anybody said you can't play great pool with a regular shaft? I don't think anybody said that.

I agree with what you said about being able to play with any shaft given enough time.

But now I want to ask you. Do you think it's a waste of time to pick a shaft that shoots straighter in the first place?

Not at all... as I mentioned earlier in a post... I completely agree that LEARNING from scratch would be much easier with an LD shaft. It takes many variables, and although doesn't eliminate them, they do minimize them. I think LD shafts do 90% of what they advertise that they do. They minimize squirt cause by an off center cue ball hit. BUT... what they DONT do... is MAKE YOU BETTER.

That was my main point of my argument. Not that I don't believe in LD shafts, Hell I have owned 8 or 9 of the damn things... BUT I did it for the wrong reason... I did it "hoping" it would improve my game.

That is what I feel is the downfall of the LD trend. People think that because the spent 200 on a "high performance" shaft that they will inherently play better. That is just not true. Will they grasp concepts of aiming that might have been more difficult with out said shaft, quite possibly.


BUT THAT ISN'T MY POINT

my argument is toward someone that HAS ALREADY LEARNED HOW TO PLAY, and THEN wants to switch to an LD shaft... its counterproductive, and you will regress in your game before you see ANY benefits that the shaft ACTUALLY DOES have to offer...
It may be a step forward, but its two steps back FIRST

 

[nineballsafety8]

Why doesn't Darren Appleton use a high-deflection shaft?
We could go around in circles naming pros who do, or don't use them.

The best players in the world have unbelievably consistent aiming, incredible mechanics,
near perfect tip placement. They adapt faster than anyone.
That's why John Schmidt can pick up a strange new cue and run 400 with it.

But what if you're not the best player in the world?
What if you're not even the top 100, or top 10,000?
What if you don't have time to play 8 hours a day, every day?

In that case, maybe you should purchase your cue based on how it handles
your imperfect aiming, and imperfect tip placement.
Maybe the top players don't need to worry as much about 'error tolerance' because
they don't make those small errors all the time, like we do.

BTW, an AZBer reviewed the R360 shaft, and said he aimed the same way he would
with his predator and OB cues.
You SURE it's an example of a high deflection shaft?




If you truly believe it's 6-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other, then why does it sound
a lot like you're hating on LD cues, giving examples of how they "ruined" someone's game? :grin:

And if you are arguing "straight pool doesn't count" then you can't have it both ways.
You have to scratch mosconi and greenleaf off your list, because I could just as easily say
"sure, they played great with a high deflection cue... but that's in a game with minimal cueball movement,
and LOTS of natural shape with pattern play."

You have to scratch them off anyway, because they had no choice in the matter.
They played before these cues were invented.
It's like saying "if digital cameras are so great why didn't Alfred Hitchcock use one?"

--

Look, we know players can reach the highest level, in all games, using either type of cue.
So the argument isn't "buy an LD cue because this other guy uses it."

The argument is, the LD cue makes it a little easier to aim highly deflect-y shot,
like a long distance high-inside-3-rails-for-shape type of shot. And it might just provide
a little error tolerance.

For example, If you have to adjust your aim about 1 inch for deflection,
but you're only human and are aiming to hit the ball 10% too fat...
then you're going to hit 2.5 millimeters off on the object ball.
You might just get away with it, and make the shot anyway.

If you have to aim 3 inches off the no-english line of aim, and you
are aiming 10% too fat... now you're hitting 7 or 8 mm off. Probably a miss unless it's a hanger.

Thank you Creedo,
the above is exactly why I wanted your input, always well thought out, and well delivered. I believe I covered alot of what you referenced in my post immediately above this one.

 

[KRJ]

That is what I feel is the downfall of the LD trend. People think that because the spent 200 on a "high performance" shaft that they will inherently play better. That is just not true. Will they grasp concepts of aiming that might have been more difficult with out said shaft, quite possibly.

I've never met these "folks" you speak of... not one that ever believed that to be true. I mean, well besides you of course

 

[nineballsafety8]

RJ... I believe in playful banter, but lets not get personal

unless you want to talk about that every team minus the blackhawks from Chicago has sucked since Phil Jackson left... LOL
(i mean that playfully, and if i genuinely offend you, I do apologize)

But yes... I was one of those people... and that's why I feel so passionately about it. had i just spend my time on practice, and stayed with the first nice cue I ever bought... I likely could be WORLDS better.
I just don't want anyone to have to struggle the way that I did... I had to learn the game twice... it sucks

 

[shanesinnott]

Not at all... as I mentioned earlier in a post... I completely agree that LEARNING from scratch would be much easier with an LD shaft. It takes many variables, and although doesn't eliminate them, they do minimize them. I think LD shafts do 90% of what they advertise that they do. They minimize squirt cause by an off center cue ball hit. BUT... what they DONT do... is MAKE YOU BETTER.

That was my main point of my argument. Not that I don't believe in LD shafts, Hell I have owned 8 or 9 of the damn things... BUT I did it for the wrong reason... I did it "hoping" it would improve my game.

That is what I feel is the downfall of the LD trend. People think that because the spent 200 on a "high performance" shaft that they will inherently play better. That is just not true. Will they grasp concepts of aiming that might have been more difficult with out said shaft, quite possibly.


BUT THAT ISN'T MY POINT

my argument is toward someone that HAS ALREADY LEARNED HOW TO PLAY, and THEN wants to switch to an LD shaft... its counterproductive, and you will regress in your game before you see ANY benefits that the shaft ACTUALLY DOES have to offer...
It may be a step forward, but its two steps back FIRST

I work for a company that makes LD shafts so I am a little biased in my opinion but have also been selling LD shafts since 1996 so I think I have some experience to bring to this discussion.

I guess I really just have issue with your statements that I have bolded above. Over the years I have received hundreds and hundreds of testimonials from people of all ages and of all levels of play stating that switching to an LD shaft did improve their game and make them better players. Are they all wrong? You emphatically state that buying an LD shaft will not make people play better. That is a very broad statement and maybe one that should be re-phrased to be more accurate?

If you had stated that some people buy an LD shaft and try them and their game regresses and they decided to go back to their regular shaft because their game didn't improve then that would be true. If you stated that some other people buy 8 or 9 shafts and keep switching from shaft to shaft (like you did) and then go back to non LD then that would be true. But if you are going to say these things do you not think that you should also concede that it is possible that some people buy and LD shaft and their game improves and they stick with it because they actually become better players?

Here is a testimonial that we just added to our website and is one that we received not long ago. There are many more like it. Is the person who wrote it wrong?:

Hello OB, I just purchased one of your OB-1 cue shafts from Seyberts Billiards. My motivation for purchasing this shaft was Alex Pagulayan. I have watched him play for some time and thought if the shaft is good enough for him it is certainly good enough for me. I am a senior player (71) I play with an original Rambow cue I purchased from Herman Rambow himself. I payed $47 for it in 1965. I have only used a Rambow shaft on my cue. Recently I have been thinking my game might improve a bit using a more hi tech shaft. BOY WAS I RIGHT! In the short time since I have owned your shaft it has helped my game tremendously. I can't say enough about the workmanship and precision that you put into this OB-1. That alone inspires confidence. But the real proof is in the shooting. There is no doubt I am a much better player when I use a much better shaft ..(sorry Herman). I will continue to improve and enjoy this great shaft for a long time. Thanks OB.
Jerry S., Valparaiso, IN

 

[nineballsafety8]

I work for a company that makes LD shafts so I am a little biased in my opinion but have also been selling LD shafts since 1996 so I think I have some experience to bring to this discussion.

I guess I really just have issue with your statements that I have bolded above. Over the years I have received hundreds and hundreds of testimonials from people of all ages and of all levels of play stating that switching to an LD shaft did improve their game and make them better players. Are they all wrong? You emphatically state that buying an LD shaft will not make people play better. That is a very broad statement and maybe one that should be re-phrased to be more accurate?

If you had stated that some people buy an LD shaft and try them and their game regresses and they decided to go back to their regular shaft because their game didn't improve then that would be true. If you stated that some other people buy 8 or 9 shafts and keep switching from shaft to shaft (like you did) and then go back to non LD then that would be true. But if you are going to say these things do you not think that you should also concede that it is possible that some people buy and LD shaft and their game improves and they stick with it because they actually become better players?

Here is a testimonial that we just added to our website and is one that we received not long ago. There are many more like it. Is the person who wrote it wrong?:

Hello OB, I just purchased one of your OB-1 cue shafts from Seyberts Billiards. My motivation for purchasing this shaft was Alex Pagulayan. I have watched him play for some time and thought if the shaft is good enough for him it is certainly good enough for me. I am a senior player (71) I play with an original Rambow cue I purchased from Herman Rambow himself. I payed $47 for it in 1965. I have only used a Rambow shaft on my cue. Recently I have been thinking my game might improve a bit using a more hi tech shaft. BOY WAS I RIGHT! In the short time since I have owned your shaft it has helped my game tremendously. I can't say enough about the workmanship and precision that you put into this OB-1. That alone inspires confidence. But the real proof is in the shooting. There is no doubt I am a much better player when I use a much better shaft ..(sorry Herman). I will continue to improve and enjoy this great shaft for a long time. Thanks OB.
Jerry S., Valparaiso, IN

Shane,
You are absolutely right... and if it came across that I am knocking the concept of LD shafts... I am not. I fully believe that someone can and likely will improve after switching to an LD shaft IF they stick with it... That is the main point that I am making. I don't believe that a shaft itself makes anyone better, regardless of the shaft, whether it be LD or standard. That was not the argument that I was trying to argue. If my point got out of wack due to my passion, I apologize for that. I fully believe that ANY equipment switch is capable of making anyone a better player.

HOWEVER, I feel they have to view it as an upgrade toward something that is more comfortable, and something that makes them more confident in their ability. I feel that the best way to accomplish that zen feeling with your equipment is to get intimate and spend as much time with your setup as possible.

In now way do I discredit the benefits of ANY LD shaft out there. Most of the LD shafts (predator, OB, Mezz, Lucasi, Tiger, Jacoby) ALL of them DO have significantly less deflection than a standard shaft, and that does enable a less steep learning curve when improving your game.

My point is that LD is NOT a magic pill that instantly makes your game better. Regardless of the BEST LD shaft out there (whatever it may be), it still has deflection, and you still have to learn the shaft.

My point is if some people who do or have equipment hopped (myself included) dedicated as much time to practice as they did trying to find the magic shaft or butt or tip, or chalk, or whatever... they likely would see gains as good or better than had they stuck with what they already had (assuming they had something decent)

 

[Thepip]

I still stick with Bob Meucci

http://www.meuccicues.com/lectures.html#pointa

Most cant tell you what cue is High Deflection shaft or an Low Deflection shaft or even what cue ball squirt is.

It does not matter if it is Mezz, OB, Predator black dot, red dot, or an ishaft by Mcdermott each company has come up with there own definition of what it is and how it works is it the cue ball or is it the shaft? pick up a stick and play with it..

All wood is symmetrical so it does not matter if it is layered, spliced or rolled onto it's self.

 

[poolguy4u]

I still stick with Bob Meucci

http://www.meuccicues.com/lectures.html#pointa

:wave2:


I tried OB, Tiger-X, Predator and I keep going back to my Meucci Original shaft.

 

[KRJ]

RJ... I believe in playful banter, but lets not get personal

unless you want to talk about that every team minus the blackhawks from Chicago has sucked since Phil Jackson left... LOL
(i mean that playfully, and if i genuinely offend you, I do apologize)

But yes... I was one of those people... and that's why I feel so passionately about it. had i just spend my time on practice, and stayed with the first nice cue I ever bought... I likely could be WORLDS better.
I just don't want anyone to have to struggle the way that I did... I had to learn the game twice... it sucks

Personal ? I was only repeated what you admitted to

No offense taken...we are quite aware that the bulls, cubs and bears suck very badly. Thank God the World Champion White Sox (2005) are gonna bounce back this year

But your struggles were your struggles, they are not anyone elses. Do you think all the folks that shoot pool started with LD, no, we all switched from maple shafts.

So, either they will struggle like you, or they will not, like us. So, either you are helping some and hurting others. Just a little tired of the LD versus maple bs threads that pop on here... oh about every other month :wink:

 

[nineballsafety8]

in a yoda voice:

a passionate group we are

LOL