My thoughts on conventional shaft vs. low deflection shaft

you got to see it from a business and cuemaker point of view. By laminating the maple in different particular ways as shown by predator, ob1 etc.. you can get a pretty consistent product. This goes for hit as well as the overall quality of the stock wood.

Most good custom cue makers spend alot of time culling through the proper pieces of maple to turn down....even some of those don't make the final qc check. So you end up wasting.... With their manufacturing process they can produce more product faster, more consistently = happy consumer,make more money,waste less, good for environment bla bla bla.

Most are all a good product, but like we say its all in the stroke anyways. A player should be able to adjust to anything within decency given time.

I shoot with an 11mm tip and have been shooting with a new cue at 13mm just to try it out to see how I really feel about it. After adjusting to it over a few days it find the cue plays really great. I still prefer my 11mm but I would shoot with the other custom any time if thats what I had.

Same with the PFD its got ivory ferrules and forward balance, you get super sloppy english....its just too much for me so I like to just play a softer game with it, using more natural lines....its not the same so I adjust.

bad mechanics wont be fixed by any equipment, but most any equipment can do well with good mechanics

happy new year,
grey ghost


Most good custom cue makers spend alot of time culling through the proper pieces of maple to turn down....even some of those don't make the final qc check. So you end up wasting.... With their manufacturing process they can produce more product faster, more consistently = happy consumer,make more money,waste less, good for environment bla bla bla.

Yes they, they can even use maple that could not used for any other purpose because even if it was warped, when it is cut into sections and laminated it will come out straight. I mean what do you think they do with all the shaft wood in the China that doesn't meet the requirements of their normal lines of production cues.

Now with all that said can you see what the actual cost of an LD Shaft is, and it also makes it very clear how much profit margin there is.

Can you even imagine the profit margin? So with the cost considered and the fact that many of these marketed products have a retail cost of $200+ what are people really paying for, it is obviously not the cost of the product. In addition, most end users do not play at a level where LD or Non-LD really even matters, because while a good shaft can improve your game there is no substitute for useful practice and general knowledge. So in the end most people buy these products because of what they have read or what others have told them, without consideration for Practice and knowledge. Is it worth it? It all depends if you know how to use it, for the beginner or recreational player I don't think so.

JIMO
 
Let me take a crack at this:
I have a couple questions for anybody inclined to contemplate the thought. Take two shafts, one is a 4.0oz low deflection laminated shaft with typical 12" pro-taper. The other is a "conventional' maple shaft weighing a typically natural 3.4oz with a 3/8" tenon & capless melamine ferrule, cut to the same very normal 12" pro-taper. Both are 12.75mm. Which will have the lowest deflection? Which will have the most natural & responsive feel? And please explain why.

You have not provided enough information here. The main factor in determining the amount of cue ball squirt *seems* to be the endmass of the tip and ferrule. A capless melamine ferrule most likely weighs less than a capped one. Lets assume identical tips (shape and type). You mention that one shaft is "low deflection". You need to be more specific. Predator makes a variety of low deflection shafts, as does OB, as do many custom makers. Are these shafts "low deflection" because that is what someone decided to call them, or because they have lower deflection? If the latter, then you already have the answer to the question. 4 oz. is a fairly heavy shaft. However, if the end of the shaft is hollow like a Predator, then it is very likely that this one will deflect less. I have tried some standard maple shafts that have had relatively low deflection, though there is HUGE variability from shaft to shaft. The answer to this part is there is no answer based on the info given.

My next question is what exactly does laminating a shaft have anything to do with it's deflection? Again, please explain.
This one is easier. The point of *radial* lamination is to make the shaft perform the same no matter how you rotate it. There are shafts that are flat laminated (like Meucci black dot). This means if you looked at a cross section of the shaft, you would see a stack of wood strips. These would flex very differently if you rotate them 90 degrees. Predator is radially laminated, meaning a cross section would look like an evenly sliced pie. This lamination is not intended to minimize deflection, but rather to make the shaft consistent no matter how it is rotated in your grip.

What makes the definitive difference between a "low deflection" shaft and a "conventional" shaft? Please explain.
As mentioned above, it could be that a manufacturer decided to name their product that. Hopefully, the difference is that the shaft produces less cue ball squirt than a typical conventional shaft. This will likely mean that the mass of the last 5" or so of the shaft is less than normal. This means the when you strike the side of the cueball, the shaft will be more likely to "deflect" out of the way of the cueball, rather than making the cue ball get out of *it's* way. So really, a shaft that offers less cueball squirt most likely offers MORE deflection (meaning it is more likely to bend and move out of the way of the cueball).

My last question is, when the marketing of these "low deflection" shaft manufacturers make claims of higher accuracy and lower deflection than "conventional" shafts, exactly whose conventional shafts are they referring to?
They are typically referring to the average standard maple shaft. As stated above, there is quite a lot of variability in standard shafts. However, on the whole, shafts marketed as Low Deflection (which should really be called low cue ball squirt) have less cue ball squirt (often called deflection).

I think there is little question that low deflection shafts do what they are intended to do. That is easily proven. The question is whether it is desirable to aspire to that goal for a shaft. I personally feel that all other things being equal, less "deflection" is a good thing. It certainly simplifies the aiming process, and offers the incorporation of many shots into a players arsenal that they just would never get to normally, because it would take so long to learn to do reliably with a regular shaft. Obviously many people have put in the time and shoot amazing shots with conventional shafts. However, the fact that someone can do it does not mean that it isn't taking the hard route to get there.

As for feel, I think any good player will tell you that this is huge. When a cue feels good and "has a good hit" (or one that appeals to a particular shooter), that player will likely experience better speed control, a better feel for exactly what the cueball is doing, a better ability to control the spin of the cueball, etc. The fact is that for people concerned about the hit of the cue, I think you will find more people that like the hit of a standard maple shaft. This is likely because the end of the shaft is *not* hollow. This makes for a more solid, positive feel to the hit, with what I believe is more feedback. Don't get me wrong. I have shot with a Predator 314 for about 5 years now. (Now a 314-2). I love the overall performance, and find that when the joint is installed by a good cue maker, the feel and hit can be quite enjoyable and useful. I have a brand new Andy Gilbert cue. I got an Andy Gilbert shaft, and a Predator 314-2 prepared by him (he installed the joint). I must say that the feel of the hit is surprisingly close. I might say the the standard shaft has an ever so slightly superior feeling hit, but i think this is fairly minimal. I have certainly experienced far more significant differences in the past with other standard/Predator comparisons I've made. However, the performance of the Predator (which the original poster highlighted) is definitely superior for my game. I'm sure if I had a few years, maybe 5 hours a day or so to kill, I could probably become as proficient with the standard shaft when using inside english, or really any english...I just don't have that kind of time. I would rather spend my pool playing learning time getting better at patterns, speed control, etc. I definitely thing shafts like the Predator offer a shortcut to a more advanced game. Heck, I need it; I'll take it!

KMRUNOUT
 
I completely understand the low tip end mass = lower deflection. What I was referring to with the conventional shaft and the laminated shaft was that there is no way to know because there is no way to accurately measure only part of the shaft, without cutting that section off & ruining the shaft. My point is that unless the difference between low deflection shafts and conventional shafts can be quantified by actual tests then it's a bogus argument. As far as I know, there are no mechanisms that offer unbiased testing of a shaft's deflective properties during play, and therefore no such thorough & unbiased tests have been executed. By thorough I mean testing hundreds of low deflection shafts and testing hundreds of conventional shafts, enough to give clear & unquestionable results. If such could be done, then we'd not be talking about it right now. I completely agree that lamination has absolutely nothing to do with deflection. It's not even anything to mention except that it's a huge aspect of the marketing behind the low deflection shafts. I find that ironic. I think if the shafts actually had the awe inspiring accuracy that they are claimed to have, then there wouldn't have to be the huge reliance on baffling the public with so-called engineering accomplishments that increase the shaft's ability to pocket balls. My concern is that people are painting such a bold line between conventional shafts and so-called low deflection shafts. Do I beleive they can hollow out the tip end to decrease deflection? Yes, I beleive you can decrease the deflection of any shaft by hollowing it out. Is is enough to make any difference? No, I don't beleive it is.
Wait...you can or cannot decrease deflection by hollowing out the end of the shaft? Did you mean to say that there is a difference, but the difference is not significant enough to offer any benefit or liability to one's game? That would make sense so I will assume that is what you meant. However, I disagree completely with this. It is very easy to test. Remember that even a tiny difference could be the difference between pocketing the ball and missing. It really doesn't take much. You may be interested to know that in the Meucci test, there were differences that translated to several inches over about 6 feet. The is VERY significant. That is like the difference between cutting the ball to the left, and totally missing the object ball entirely.

The heavier the shaft, the more difference it will make. With a lightweight shaft it'll make very little difference as you are removing very little weight. Either way, the difference, IMO, is rediculously minute. Taper shape, diameter, ferrule material & ferrule install technique can have as much or more affect on deflection.
It is possible that the proportion of the endmass that is removed could affect the result...sure. However, I believe that the other items you brought up are significant only in the degree to which they affect the end mass of the shaft. An interesting footnote, however, is that I believe that the pattent Predator has on its "technology" is on the design of the ferrule, *not* the pie shaped lamination and *not* the hollow ended shaft. (This is what I heard, so I'm not 100% sure about this-anyone else?)

is, unless each shaft is tested individually, you have no idea what kind of deflective properties it has. It doesn't matter if it has a "conventional" look or if it's a super engineered laminated shaft. Either can be high deflection and either can be low deflection. Nobody knows. There are no definitive answers beyond understanding what deflection is & how it affects the game. We don't really know which shafts are low deflection & which are not. We only assume that the ones marketed as low deflection are actually low deflection because it's what we are told. And it's been that way for so long that now we assume a shaft that isn't laminated with a funky or short ferrule is going to be high deflection, and that's alarmingly wrong.
Would you accept the following as a reasonable guide line? The typical shaft that is a simple solid piece of maple will likely fall in the typical range of deflection produced by typical shafts. I have hit with hundreds of cues. Of the many hundred I've tried with conventional shafts, I recall exactly 1 cue that allowed me to aim the same way I aim with my Predator, and 1 or 2 more that were reasonably close. The vast majority, however, gave a fairly predictable level of cueball squirt that was much higher than what I experience with my Predator. The low deflection shafts I've tried also are fairly predictable. Most all Predator shafts play as expected. (There is no doubt that the Z2 deflects the least, the 314-2 a little more, and the 314 a little more than that.) Every Z2 seems about the same, every 314-2 seems about the same, etc. They all seem to fall within a range that is expected and predictable, and considerably lower than the average conventional shaft. In fact, I would argue that this consistency of production and predictability of results is actually a good quality in and of itself with regard to Predator shafts in particular. Two maple shafts from the same cue maker, with the same ferrules, weight, taper, etc. may actually be very different in the way they play. Not night and day of course, but different enough to notice the difference.

Anyway, my $0.02

KMRUNOUT
 
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Here's a helpful hint from the old Steamer. Google Wikipedia, enter the word 'deflection' and click on it. Select the type of 'deflection', which would be engineering and see what it says.
The upshot is that 'deflection' is another word for the bending of a structure (our cue shafts) when placed under a load (the load being the cue ball when struck).
If less 'deflection' of the structure (our cue shafts) is desireable then how do we we construct them without adding mass? Simple, laminate them. Either in a radial fashion as with the pie pieces, or laterally by stacking them flat. Less mass, but still structurally sound.
Do you remember when you were a kid and you wanted to put a little extra jizz on the cue ball? You grabbed a snooker cue of the wall. And do you remember that oftimes you have to roll a couple of them to find a straight one. There's nothing new under the sun.

I think you misunderstand the engineering involved in "low-deflection" shafts. It isn't your fault though, as the terms are not used very accurately. The marketing term "low deflection shaft" is used to describe a shaft that produces less cue ball squirt. This is often accomplished by producing *MORE* shaft deflection. In other words, a lighter shaft will bend *more* than normal, getting out of the way of the cueball, rather than the other way around. A heavier shaft will bend less (deflect less), thus resulting in more cue ball squirt.

KMRUNOUT
 
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Back to the point, I am not discounting low deflection shafts. In fact, I think if it helps a person feel more confident, then by all means it's great. If indeed it does aid in a person pocketing balls, then it's awesome. My point is that the shafts that yourself & Predator build are not the only low deflection shafts and there could very well be lower deflection shafts that look very much conventional, but the pool society doesn't accept it as such because it doesn't have laminations or a tricky looking ferrule. And if they most likely do exist, and they do because I have seen them & know builders who do it, then how much difference is there between the commonly known low deflection shafts and any other shaft if people using them cannot blindly tell the difference? Example, I build a shaft with an ultra thin wall ferrule & an 8" deep 5/16" bore. It'll look exactly like any other shaft while having the comparable tip end mass as a Predator or OB. Give it to a player who 100% bites off on this "low deflection" theory & he'll hate it, wanting to switch back to his Predator or OB. He'll swear the "conventional" shaft has more deflection.
This sounds like you are saying that you can employ the exact same engineering principles as OB or Predator to achieve a similar result, except that it will "look" more like a traditional shaft. This is cool, I guess. Kinda stealthy in a way. The point is, it either works or it doesn't. It sounds like you think it does work. That to me boils down to how important a traditional looking shaft is to a player. To me it doesn't matter too much. Once I've played with a Predator shaft, and dirtied it up a bit, it would be very hard to distinguish it from any other shaft from a distance. Now granted the OB shafts have the "new" looking ferrule (which to be honest is a bit of a turnoff for me). So assuming the average consumer doesn't care much about conventional vs. very nearly conventional looks (a la Predator), the decision comes down to exposure. Predator is all over the place--MANY pool players have heard of them. I must admit, and intend no disrespect, that I have never heard of you, your cues, or any shafts you have made. Yours may be superior in every way, but I simply haven't been exposed to it. Unless there is a radical difference in cost, I guess it really doesn't matter. I was able to get a low deflection shaft that I like. I could have got a shaft (from you) that did the same thing and looked slightly more traditional, but the opportunity never came up, you know what I mean? The consumer you describe is, for lack of a better term, a moron. When I try out a "low deflection" shaft, I first am interested in one thing only. How much cue ball squirt does it produce. If I am satisfied that it is equivalent to the "standard" LD shaft (Predator imho), I will next decide how the hit feels. Finally, I will evaluate the aesthetics. If it doesn't produce low deflection (at least as well as my 314-2) then why bother go any further. I could care less how it was made if it doesn't work for me.

Great comments though, I appreciated your input in this thread.

KMRUNOUT
 
Pool players like what they're familiar with, not what's "best". Inexperienced players aren't familiar with anything yet, so they don't prefer one thing or another - this means they actually have an advantage over "solid players" because they can choose a cue based on real objective playing characteristics (like low squirt) rather than on the cue's familiar "feel".

pj
chgo

A keen observation. This is perhaps true in many areas of life.
 
i know what deflection is.... and i laugh at the mythbuster everytime i seen the video of it.

Because id never make a shot if cues deflected the cueball like in his vid.

i cannot recreate what bob meucci did with my schon....hell' id never make a shot if my cue deflected that much. nobody would because youd never beable to compensate for something like that.

i can hit a ball hard with extreme english and hit where i aim every time
when my stroke is on.....i dont understand what people are doing to create this 3 or 4 inches of deflection????

the only way i get 3 or 4 inches of deflection is if i miscue...and that can happen with any shaft....

there is no need for low deflection shafts really....but if thats what you like to use go ahead. whatever gives you confidence....

i dont compensate my aim for deflection ever....for THrow/swerve/masse yes ill adjust my aim to contact point but other than that. i dont ever account for deflection because i feel like its never an issue with me....
i think people just like to blame a missed shot on anything but themselves or the imput that they might of put into the cueball via stroke,

ive used a predator and i made/missed balls just the same as with a regular shaft....to me it was just another shaft...
hit fine played fine...definately not worth $220 tho

Robots/machines dont play pool...people do...shoot whatever you want....the only way to get better is practice...and dream about the game when your not practicing.

.

Interesting post. You make your point, then proceed to destroy it. The fact is that when a robot strikes the cueball off center (with its fixed bridge, fixed pivot point, etc.) it *absolutely does* deflect quite a bit. You saw it. I saw it in person. I've tried it myself with all kinds of cues and shafts. This is a simple fact of physics, like it or not. Understand it or not.

However, you then go on to say that robots don't play pool, people do. Well there is your answer. *That* is how you are able to make a ball with a cue that deflects so much. You unconsciously aim to compensate for it (robots can't do this...yet). You already know that you can also compensate for it with your stroke, the way you grip the cue, the way you adjust your bridge, and many other ways. You do all those things because you are a human being and you can.

So there you have it: yes, the cue does deflect like you saw. yes, you are able to compensate for it. That's it.

KMRUNOUT
 
Dennis Searing does it. He tests the flex of his shafts & they have to fit within a tiny window of range or else he'll not use them. Combine this with weight matching and tone matching that other cuemakers utilize. I'd say most custom builders test each shaft to some extent. Personally, I check for tone & weight. The tone tells me how stiff the shaft will be and the memory of the flex, and the weight tells me about the window of deflection it's likely to have. My shafts play best with a high tone & 3.8-4.2oz. Deflection is but one aspect of how a shaft performs.

You are one of the few people I have heard talk about the tone. This is very important to me too. I also feel a high tone "feels' best. It simply gives a more satisfying feel (to me of course).

Good stuff!
 
. As far as I know, there are no mechanisms that offer unbiased testing of a shaft's deflective properties during play, and therefore no such thorough & unbiased tests have been executed. By thorough I mean testing hundreds of low deflection shafts and testing hundreds of conventional shafts, enough to give clear & unquestionable results. If such could be done, then we'd not be talking about it right now.
I don't think hundreds of shafts need to be tested to quantify shaft squirt characteristics. Tests have been done. Theory has been done. Tests agree with theory.


My concern is that people are painting such a bold line between conventional shafts and so-called low deflection shafts. .
I'm confused at your concern here. As an unbiased end user and one of the long time posters who (in my not so humble opinion) have helped over the last 10 years the entire internet community on the understanding the how's and what's of squirt, there is no doubt there is a bold line. It's certainly not subtle.

Also, I know you were being a bit tongue-in-cheek saying that squirt is 8th grade Physics, but I dont' think most people realize that it's not first year Physics. IMO, the study is a pretty advanced branch of collision analysis. It's a pretty unique analysis. Here's a hint: when people say "it's the tip end mass," they either only say that to keep it as layman as possible or they don't fully understand the theory. My guess is half the people or more simply don't understand the theory, but they understand that changing the tip end mass makes a difference.

Fred
 
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I saw Meucci demonstrate his machine which was a simple pendulum and have no doubt about what I saw - unless he had a hidden tweak mechanism. It convinced me that the 314 or the OB would squirt less and offer a closer to a center ball aim for cuts - which works for me.

Bottom line is that it helped to convince me that there is a difference when compared to a higher mass conventional shaft made of the same wood - maple with no core. I believe in the engineeering that goes into the OB shaft. I own a OB-1 and am planning to buy an OB-2 for a smaller diameter that I like.

I used to sand down my shafts toward 11 mm to help me aim and got used to LD as well. I noticed that Oscar Dominguez and his Father also shot with a small diameter shaft with great results. Oscar now shoots with a commercial LD shaft after he used my Z2 and said that it shot the same - perhaps a coincidence?

Years ago, A guy named Dutch had shaft that had a 6" copper rod hidden in the center behind the tip and would challenge people to shoot a spot shot with it - high mass, HD and mucho squirt.

I hope that Meucci's machine was not rigged as inferred by some. We didn't have hundreds of tests to get to the moon to get it right, but we did have good science.

Thanks for all that you do for Pool.

In meucci's test, what I saw was that the object ball struck... it was never shown on camera to be set in place like everything else was. It seemed like they went out of their way to make sure everything was caught on camera just right so the test wouldn't seemed biased... except the object ball which, if moved even slightly a centimeter to the right could make a massive difference.
 
KMRUNOUT:
a lighter shaft will bend *more* than normal, getting out of the way of the cueball, rather than the other way around. A heavier shaft will bend less (deflect less), thus resulting in more cue ball squirt.

Shaft flexibility doesn't matter to squirt. Two shafts with the same endmass, but one flexible and the other stiff, will squirt the same.

pj
chgo
 
Cornerman:
...when people say "it's the tip end mass," they either only say that to keep it as layman as possible or they don't fully understand the theory. My guess is half the people or more simply don't understand the theory, but they understand that changing the tip end mass makes a difference.

Unless you know of something other than end mass that makes a significant difference, what other understanding is needed?

pj
chgo
 
1) I think the biggest reason is that people who have been playing with a conventional shaft for a long time are just extremely used to compensating for the deflection. Making this transition could possibly be very hard. Many great open minded players that I talked to said they think the concept is great and makes sense, but the reason they haven't switched to a low deflection shaft is because they have been playing for 20+ years and are just extremely used to their current shaft.

I'm going to go with this explanation although I would phrase it a little differently. A person's brain gets programmed a certain way. Without any mathematical calculation, an experienced player just knows where to aim to make a certain shot. Give him a completely different shaft and now he has to learn a completely new way of aiming.
 
I have seen the Predator infomation comparing the 314 and Z shaft to standard shafts. Also, I have seen the Meucci video comparing the Black Dot shaft. In both cases the were comparing their product to mostly really cheap low-end production cues. What I have always wanted to see is a test done with high quality shafts (Black Boar, Searing and etc...). Long ago I was in Tony's (Black Boar) shop and he was talking to me about things he was doing to reduce deflection and this was almost 2 years before Predator hit the market in the early ninties.

Don't get me wrong, I have a nuetral stance in the LD/HD debate. I believe you should use what you like and play better with no matter what kind of shaft it is.
 
Dennis Searing does it. He tests the flex of his shafts & they have to fit within a tiny window of range or else he'll not use them. Combine this with weight matching and tone matching that other cuemakers utilize. I'd say most custom builders test each shaft to some extent. Personally, I check for tone & weight. The tone tells me how stiff the shaft will be and the memory of the flex, and the weight tells me about the window of deflection it's likely to have. My shafts play best with a high tone & 3.8-4.2oz. Deflection is but one aspect of how a shaft performs.


Thanks Eric. I understand that there are many parameters that affect how a shaft performs. I appreciate that many fine cuemakers have testing methods. What I would like to see is STANDARDIZED testing, so that one could compare the "deflection rating" between a Sugartree, a Searing, an OB1, an OB2, etc. etc. We have this for tip diameter. We have this for shaft weight. To some extent we have taper specifications. We do not have any standard way to rate the deflection of a shaft. This is what I am speaking about.

Dave
 
I don't think hundreds of shafts need to be tested to quantify shaft squirt characteristics. Tests have been done. Theory has been done. Tests agree with theory.

Fred, the testing done until now will not tell me what magnitude of deflection I get from my Falcon cue, and what I might expect if I buy a Schon. I am speaking of a practical use of some standardized tesing, not the laboratory proof-of-concept testing that has been done.

Here is are questions that I doubt have answers (yet). For any given production run of a given LD shaft, what is the variance of deflection charatoristics ? Will they all be exactly the same ? <I doubt that, we're dealing with wood>. Will they all be within 2% ? Will they all be within 5% ? Can a 2% difference affect ones game ? Can a 5% difference affect ones game ?

In my mind this is NOT about proving the theory, it's about being able to make comparative buying decisions based on real tests (like buying a 19.5 oz cue versus a 20.5 oz cue, a 13mm tip versus 12.75mm tip). Having no way to measure deflection means we have to buy-and-try for the most part, something I am not interested in much after spending months adjusting to new cues. It would be SO much nicer to know what my current cue does, and then buy a new cue that is similar so I do not have to re-learn potting.

Dave
 
Unless you know of something other than end mass that makes a significant difference, what other understanding is needed?

pj
chgo

You've either misunderstood my post or you don't have the technical understanding beyond the term "tip end mass." I have a hard time believing the latter.

Warning to those who don't want to read further: Semi-techno speak to follow.

The term "tip end mass" as I said is just a layman all encompassing term. A more proper term or statement is "effective end mass" or "mass in effect of the lateral collision."

Certain things can influence the "mass in effect of the lateral collision." For example, the unnatural vice grip by the Jacksonville robot with little to no compliance at the grip can falsely increase the tip/cueball contact time. Mass in effect during the lateral collision is based on contact time and the speed of the transverse wave due to the lateral force. A human using english only gets about .002 seconds of contact time due to hand compliance. The robot with vice grip can get more contact time therefore increasing the mass in effeect of the lateral collision (and therefore more squirt).

A further example is Bob Meucci's method which was to develope a floating tenon concept that effectively decoupled much of the mass a the tip end from the lateral collision and therefore reducing cueball squirt. It's also the reason his Myth Destroyer made his cue seemed like the best performer: the decoupled tenon didn't depend on the rest of the tester's mechanics. The other cues suffered because the test system falsely influenced the effective mass in the lateral direction of the collision.

These things (and related have been discussed ad naseum (to which you have certainly been part of those discussion) for many years. I can point to links if you'd like.

Fred
 
Fred, the testing done until now will not tell me what magnitude of deflection I get from my Falcon cue, and what I might expect if I buy a Schon. I am speaking of a practical use of some standardized tesing, not the laboratory proof-of-concept testing that has been done.

Here is are questions that I doubt have answers (yet). For any given production run of a given LD shaft, what is the variance of deflection charatoristics ? Will they all be exactly the same ? <I doubt that, we're dealing with wood>. Will they all be within 2% ? Will they all be within 5% ? Can a 2% difference affect ones game ? Can a 5% difference affect ones game ?

In my mind this is NOT about proving the theory, it's about being able to make comparative buying decisions based on real tests (like buying a 19.5 oz cue versus a 20.5 oz cue, a 13mm tip versus 12.75mm tip). Having no way to measure deflection means we have to buy-and-try for the most part, something I am not interested in much after spending months adjusting to new cues. It would be SO much nicer to know what my current cue does, and then buy a new cue that is similar so I do not have to re-learn potting.

Dave
Platinum Billiards performed and document such tests. But, maybe you and Eric are simply looking for even more information than they've give.

Additionally, the Aim & Pivot Method for squirt testing has been recommended by Bob Jewett (and many others) for years.


Fred
 
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Platinum Billiards performed and document such tests. But, maybe you and Eric are simply looking for even more information than they've give.

Fred

I am looking for standard methods of comparing cues. Like others have suggested, currently there seem to be only two quantums, the "LD shaft" and the "Conventional shaft". I would expect that there is a range of deflections, as Ron Sheppard has shown, and I want cuemakers/shaftmakers to define their products within that range. Currently there is no standard test to do so. I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear.

BTW, I just went looking for the Platinum data (I have studied it previously) and could not find it, do you have a valid link ?

Dave
 
I am looking for standard methods of comparing cues. Like others have suggested, currently there seem to be only two quantums, the "LD shaft" and the "Conventional shaft". I would expect that there is a range of deflections, as Ron Sheppard has shown, and I want cuemakers/shaftmakers to define their products within that range. Currently there is no standard test to do so. I'm sorry if I am not making myself clear.
Aim & Pivot Method as described in Bob Jewett's Pool & Billiard FAQ. It's quantatative, but it ends up giving the "effective pivot point" as opposed to the "natural pivot point" due to throw. If you used one of those laser devices that show you when you hit the center of the target, you could measure the natural pivot point with no throw effects.



BTW, I just went looking for the Platinum data (I have studied it previously) and could not find it, do you have a valid link ?

Dave
I can't find it either. That's too bad. Maybe someone else has saved the data.

Fred
 
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