My thoughts on conventional shaft vs. low deflection shaft

I have added this shot a few months ago to my arsenal as a day to day shot.
I like it better than slow roll as there is less chance of table getting in the way.
I use it on some long cut shots as well so that CB bounces less off the rail.
Funny thing, the reason I started using it is that in a book the author said -the shot is mostly used by pros and amatures don't use it much.
Tony Drago seems to play it a lot.
 
Wolven said:
I have added this shot a few months ago to my arsenal as a day to day shot.
I like it better than slow roll as there is less chance of table getting in the way.
I use it on some long cut shots as well so that CB bounces less off the rail.
Funny thing, the reason I started using it is that in a book the author said -the shot is mostly used by pros and amatures don't use it much.
Tony Drago seems to play it a lot.
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yea most ametures dont use it.....it takes a while to get use to it....if you dont do it all the time. what i find nice about it is it allows you to sho0t the shot at a different speed with same position results...its just ways to acheive a different feel for the same shot position wise....im stilll more comfortable with other strokes and dont use it much....usually because i dont think to use it in a match/game....but i do use it in practice sometimes..
 
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RD3P said:
what i find nice about it is it allows you to sho0t the shot at a different speed with same position results...its just ways to acheive a different feel for the same shot position wise....
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I didn't think of it but you are right different speeds with similar result, good point.

As for the long cut shots but with softer speed using our draw/follow technique.
One thing that makes me nervous is possibility of OB & CB sticking together.
It took me a while to realize that since I'm using draw my brain expects a sliding collision between CB & OB
but the collision is at rolling speed which produces a slightly different angle of departure for OB.
 
RD3P said:
agree with you on that...

why cant he shoot a long shot and roll the cueball forward one rotation after contact???? its not the shafts fault, but user malfunction.
the idea that certain shots are lost because of a certain shaft is crazy....adjust your stroke.

.....how many pros use predator and are not sponsored???
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Ralph Eckert, in "Modern Pool", wrote that he lost certain "quality shots" when he tried a low deflection shaft. In case you haven't heard of him, he was the German national billiards coach, working with players like Thorsten Hohmann, Oliver Ortmann, Ralph Souquet, and he also invented the PAT learning system. He's played in multiple world events, and is a pro. So, is "user malfunction" your final answer?
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Ralph Eckert, in "Modern Pool", wrote that he lost certain "quality shots" when he tried a low deflection shaft. In case you haven't heard of him, he was the German national billiards coach, working with players like Thorsten Hohmann, Oliver Ortmann, Ralph Souquet, and he also invented the PAT learning system. He's played in multiple world events, and is a pro. So, is "user malfunction" your final answer?
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yea...still.

what shots???is he talking about

why cant you draw the ball 4 or 5 inches with a ld shaft????
like you said

why cant you roll the ball forward 3,4 or 5 inches??? i dont get it?
like you said????

if the predator shaft is really incapable of performing these shots....i doubt that the pros would be using their equipment....hell theyd be oout of buisiness.

sounds like user malfunction. change your input into the shot instead of shooting it like you always do...and youll get the cueball to where you want it.

Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong
The shots I lose with an LD shaft - the long shot where I have to roll through one ball rotation. The jump shot with my playing shaft. The bounceback draw shot, where I only need to pull the ball back 4-5". I also lose the ability to "cheat" certain shots, like overcutting a ball by adding a touch of inside english.

anyone here with a camera want to execute these shots with a predator shaft and put them on youtube?
i dont have a camera and i dont own a predator shaft so i cant do it....

wolven:
ive never aplied that stroke to a shot with a steep angle.
ill have to play around with that a bit and see if i find anthing to like....
i usually only use it on strait shots or shots with very little angle like 10 degree or less
 
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RD3P said:
yea...still.

what shots???is he talking about

why cant you draw the ball 4 or 5 inches with a ld shaft????
like you said

why cant you roll the ball forward 3,4 or 5 inches??? i dont get it?
like you said????

if the predator shaft is really incapable of performing these shots....i doubt that the pros would be using their equipment....hell theyd be oout of buisiness.

sounds like user malfunction. change your input into the shot instead of shooting it like you always do...and youll get the cueball to where you want it.

Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong
The shots I lose with an LD shaft - the long shot where I have to roll through one ball rotation. The jump shot with my playing shaft. The bounceback draw shot, where I only need to pull the ball back 4-5". I also lose the ability to "cheat" certain shots, like overcutting a ball by adding a touch of inside english.

anyone here with a camera want to execute these shots with a predator shaft and put them on youtube?
i dont have a camera and i dont own a predator shaft so i cant do it....

wolven:
ive never aplied that stroke to a shot with a steep angle.
ill have to play around with that a bit and see if i find anthing to like....
i usually only use it on strait shots or shots with very little angle like 10 degree or less
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You're right. I'll be much better with a low deflection shaft. I just need to stick with it, learn how to use it, and then I'll be at the exact same level I'm at right now, except I'll be $200 less wealthy, AND I'll have performed at a lower level than I play at now just to learn how to shoot those shots with the overpriced shaft.

If I don't need the shaft to compensate for me, why would I WASTE MONEY on something that does nothing for me? It's like the kids I play league with that have the $1000 Schon (with the $280 314-2 shaft on it), the $350 BK2, and the Predator Air in their bags. The new Predator motto should be "Buy a Better Game". I play with my plain jane Rick Howard, and break with my playing cue, and I win......convincingly. Maybe I should cave into the hype that the LD spinsters put out there, and realize that I need to retool to get better. Either that, or PRACTICE.
 
agreed i dont buy into LD technology either....
but i still dont see how ld technology could wipe certain shots out of your bag of tricks....surely you can do them...you just have to find the right stroke for them.

thats all im getting at.
 
RD3P said:
agreed i dont buy into LD technology either....
but i still dont see how ld technology could wipe certain shots out of your bag of tricks....surely you can do them...you just have to find the right stroke for them.

thats all im getting at.
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You get slightly hooked behind a ball & the object ball is too close to the pocket to jump at safely. You use a tremendous amount of inside spin and intentionally squirt away from the ball that's blocking you & the cueball will swerve back on track to contact your intended target ball. I'd like to see somebody do that with a low deflection shaft. Obviously, deflection is a key element in making the shot possible. It's also not an uncommon shot.
 
RD3P said:
agreed i dont buy into LD technology either....
but i still dont see how ld technology could wipe certain shots out of your bag of tricks....surely you can do them...you just have to find the right stroke for them.

thats all im getting at.
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I use a 314-2 and really like playing with it.

I think your post is 100% accurate. You can do any shot with a predator but you have to take the time to relearn some shots. Softer shots with english are much harder to execute cuz they can curve a little. Also sometimes it can be hard to put just a little english on the ball---you have to be very precise with your tip on the cue ball.

I think the main advantage of using a pred shaft is that it is much easier to aim on power english shots. Hitting a follow shot with inside english is waay easier to make consistantly.

If someone wanted to switch to a predator or other LD shaft be prepared for a learning curve. It can take a long time to master the differences.




Originally Posted by Shawn Armstrong
The shots I lose with an LD shaft - the long shot where I have to roll through one ball rotation. The jump shot with my playing shaft. The bounceback draw shot, where I only need to pull the ball back 4-5". I also lose the ability to "cheat" certain shots, like overcutting a ball by adding a touch of inside english.


This makes perfect sense to me although I wouldn't say these shots are completely lost just harder to find.

dudley
 
qbilder said:
You get slightly hooked behind a ball & the object ball is too close to the pocket to jump at safely. You use a tremendous amount of inside spin and intentionally squirt away from the ball that's blocking you & the cueball will swerve back on track to contact your intended target ball. I'd like to see somebody do that with a low deflection shaft. Obviously, deflection is a key element in making the shot possible. It's also not an uncommon shot.
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You can still masse with a predator.
 
Wolven said:
You can still masse with a predator.
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I agree, you can indeed masse with a Predator. The shot i'm referring to is not a masse. It's a shot that you keep the cue very much level and depend on deflection to avoid contacting the ball you are hooked behind, and then depend on swerve to bring the cueball back on line to contact & pocket your object ball.

With a Predator, this shot can only be made by going with a masse. I don't think I have to explain how tough it is to control a masse. The shot I mention is relatively routine & easily judged, and is certainly not a masse.

A masse depends on back spin to curve. It can be executed with any cue capable of applying spin. The swerve shot does not depend on back spin & can only be executed with a cue that will deflect the cueball slightly off course, with the spin swerving it back on track. The shot I mention is unquestionably a deflection shot, meaning that it requires deflection to be executed.
 
qbilder said:
I agree, you can indeed masse with a Predator. The shot i'm referring to is not a masse. It's a shot that you keep the cue very much level and depend on deflection to avoid contacting the ball you are hooked behind, and then depend on swerve to bring the cueball back on line to contact & pocket your object ball.

With a Predator, this shot can only be made by going with a masse. I don't think I have to explain how tough it is to control a masse. The shot I mention is relatively routine & easily judged, and is certainly not a masse.

A masse depends on back spin to curve. It can be executed with any cue capable of applying spin. The swerve shot does not depend on back spin & can only be executed with a cue that will deflect the cueball slightly off course, with the spin swerving it back on track. The shot I mention is unquestionably a deflection shot, meaning that it requires deflection to be executed.
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If you give me enough distance the predator will do the curve you describe.
I know because I have executed this shot a couple of times this week.
On a short distance you are probably right.
I will give it a try and report back on this one. :)
 
Eric,

I'm surprised!

This shot is actually easier with an LD shaft! There are really only 2 differences.

First, because it doesn't "squirt" as much, you have to actually aim to "miss" the ball you are shooting around. With a normal squirt cue, the squirt pushes it out enough to get around so you aim more at the interfering ball.

Second, you have to be careful about how much spin you hit it with because the LD shafts typically spin the cue ball a little easier and you can over spin it.

That's it! Remember, squirt only changes the angle of aim, so as long as you aim appropriately, you can shoot just about any shot with just about any shaft.


Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com

qbilder said:
You get slightly hooked behind a ball & the object ball is too close to the pocket to jump at safely. You use a tremendous amount of inside spin and intentionally squirt away from the ball that's blocking you & the cueball will swerve back on track to contact your intended target ball. I'd like to see somebody do that with a low deflection shaft. Obviously, deflection is a key element in making the shot possible. It's also not an uncommon shot.
Click to expand...
 
qbilder said:
You use a tremendous amount of inside spin and intentionally squirt away from the ball that's blocking you & the cueball will swerve back on track to contact your intended target ball. I'd like to see somebody do that with a low deflection shaft. Obviously, deflection is a key element in making the shot possible.
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Why do you think you can't simply aim a little to the side to get around the blocking ball?

It really surprises me that anybody thinks squirt is necessary for this shot. I do it all the time with my ultra-low squirt shaft. It's a standard shot with any shaft.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick,

No, I don't have any testing. I am pretty much biased to our cue shafts based on what our customers say.

There is one common theme when players hit our cue shafts for the first time. They all comment about how easy it is to spin the cue ball. I don't think it spins it more, just easier or more spin with less speed.

Sorry, I usually qualify that statement with "according to our customers comments" or something like that.

Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Why do you think you can't simply aim a little to the side to get around the blocking ball?

It really surprises me that anybody thinks squirt is necessary for this shot. I do it all the time with my ultra-low squirt shaft. It's a standard shot with any shaft.

pj
chgo
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That's exactly right.
 
JUMP SHOT. Let's see you shoot it with a low deflection shaft. I can make EVERY shot with my one-piece, low tech shaft with hard ferrules that I can with the hollow, wooden or plastic ferruled shafts. Anyone who has tried a jump shot with their playing cue with an LD shaft knows they jump like a turd. There is the odd shot where I have to hop over a little piece of the blocking ball, but do not feel the need to bring out the jump cue, as I'm much more accurate with my playing cue.

PJ, tell me how your ultra low deflection shaft jumps balls.......let me guess, one of your standard shots as well, right?
 
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