Myth or real - Stroke smoothness as a requisite for certain shots

[straightline]

The only exception that I can think of is certain power shots. Here, in order to generate the sort of controlled power that is needed, the stroke must be played using an autonomous, open-loop, control mode. Loosely speaking, this allows the agonistic and antagonistic muscle groups to be applied sequentially (accelerate first and then brake) rather than concurrently (one foot on the accelerator, the other at the same time on the brake).

This is the first description of actual "timing" I've seen here. lol. Personalized timing and anticipatory histrionics are what the (non) argument is about. These superfluous actions are the filing system of the player.

 

[gregcantrall]

Check out Moe Norman .

 

[Siz]

Some things to think about, but not related to the exact question....

At a Eurotour event they put slo-mo cameras and such on about 20 top players and measured a bunch of things. A major result was that for all of the players shooting standard shots -- not break shots -- the tip hit the ball at near zero acceleration. The cue was, in effect, coasting through the cue ball.

The theory says that this timing will also be the least effort to accomplish the speed/spin required for a shot. I think it is very difficult or impossible to consciously teach this timing and that the players have simply learned the best/easiest way to hit the ball by years of practice.

Also....

Some say that you have to have a certain strength of grip for some shots. It turns out that that human flesh is so much softer than wood, CF, and even the tip, that during the actual tip/ball contact, the hand is not really involved in the collision. This has been demonstrated with high speed video.

In fact, the original Iron Willie design was broken. The grip was very, very firm. So firm that most of the robot arm was added to the weight of the stick. Iron Willie was redesigned to have a properly compliant grip, I've been told.

Bob, two questions:

First, I would be very interested to see what the slo-mo analysis came up with - is this published anywhere accessible?

Secondly, regarding the non participation of the hand, you suggest that softness of human flesh is the reason for this. But is it not the case that the signal from the collision simply would not have time to reach the hand and return to the tip by the time the cb has lost contact? (So a similar argument to why it is only the mass of the last 6 inches or so of the cue that is relevant for deflection purposes.)

Thanks

Simon

 

[Jaden]

Some things to think about, but not related to the exact question....

At a Eurotour event they put slo-mo cameras and such on about 20 top players and measured a bunch of things. A major result was that for all of the players shooting standard shots -- not break shots -- the tip hit the ball at near zero acceleration. The cue was, in effect, coasting through the cue ball.

The theory says that this timing will also be the least effort to accomplish the speed/spin required for a shot. I think it is very difficult or impossible to consciously teach this timing and that the players have simply learned the best/easiest way to hit the ball by years of practice.

Also....

Some say that you have to have a certain strength of grip for some shots. It turns out that that human flesh is so much softer than wood, CF, and even the tip, that during the actual tip/ball contact, the hand is not really involved in the collision. This has been demonstrated with high speed video.

In fact, the original Iron Willie design was broken. The grip was very, very firm. So firm that most of the robot arm was added to the weight of the stick. Iron Willie was redesigned to have a properly compliant grip, I've been told.

Exactly, that's why I said that it's not about accelerating through the ball, it's about ensuring you aren't DECELERATING.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Exactly, that's why I said that it's not about accelerating through the ball, it's about ensuring you aren't DECELERATING.

And (in case this horse is playing possum) the direct problem isn’t deceleration itself, but the negative effect it can have on the stroke’s timing and accuracy.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

And (in case this horse is playing possum) the direct problem isn’t deceleration itself, but the negative effect it can have on the stroke’s timing and accuracy.

pj
chgo

There's that timing word again. It does its Newtonian thing, doesn't have to synch with anything in particular - it's the shooter with all the bad parts and latencies.

 

[straightline]

Check out Moe Norman .

That wind up looks comical. Tell you why it works though.
Natural motion; looks awkward but all the shifts and balances <let> the energy pass into the ball.

Who is Moe Norman? lol

 

[Patrick Johnson]

There's that timing word again. It does its Newtonian thing, doesn't have to synch with anything in particular

We need it to "synch" with the target speed at impact.

pj
chgo

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, two questions:

First, I would be very interested to see what the slo-mo analysis came up with - is this published anywhere accessible?

Secondly, regarding the non participation of the hand, you suggest that softness of human flesh is the reason for this. But is it not the case that the signal from the collision simply would not have time to reach the hand and return to the tip by the time the cb has lost contact? (So a similar argument to why it is only the mass of the last 6 inches or so of the cue that is relevant for deflection purposes.)

Thanks

Simon

This is covered on Dr. Dave's website.

The tip-ball contact time is long enough for a couple of round trips of length-wise stick compression energy, so the hand does see the stick compression during the contact. From the video analysis, the hand is about 100 times softer (IIRC) than the tip/stick, so it is like a limp noodle during the collision. In the case of a golf ball/golf club, I think there the hands can't participate at all because the force would be from bending, and that's a much slower action.

 

[straightline]

We need it to "synch" with the target speed at impact.

pj
chgo

That's a natural thing though. Like tossing trash.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That's a natural thing though. Like tossing trash.

I think deceleration in the stroke (and in tossing trash?) is assumed to be not the usual way.

pj
chgo

 

[straightline]

I think deceleration in the stroke (and in tossing trash?) is assumed to be not the usual way.

pj
chgo

It's propelled until just before release. Size of the target presents more issues. Dumpster vs Cue ball etc... The required precision in pool will cause more extraneous tension until the act is fluid and natural.

 

[gregcantrall]

Who is Moe Norman? lol

Overview

Murray Irwin "Moe" Norman was a Canadian professional golfer known for his accuracy and ability to hit consistently straight shots. He was nicknamed "Pipeline Moe" and "Rain Man" of golf.