NAPA or UPA

Mark Griffin said:
Dear hockey scratch,

You sound like an ad for napa.
Please get your facts straight.

The BCAPL system is very friendly to the players. All leagues can be run any way the local operator desires. If you had an issue with the local program, that is fine. But the national program does not even have a handicap system.

You guys need to gets your facts STRAIGHT.
You also need to sign your real name.

Mark Griffin, CEO
CSI - BCAPL - USAPL
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While I understand that you are standing behind your league and I fully appreciate that- you seem to be just trying to avoid bad publicity.

The BCA was never even close to a choice for me. I do not agree with the fact that league operators do not own anything.

It is still a point you have not addressed. It is a point that made the UPA turn you guys down back when you made a bid to buy them and its something that prospect League Operators have to seriously consider when shopping around.

Again, I started the search for a league being fully objective. I don't hold anything against any of the leagues but I do see a need for change in this industry if the future of the sport is to be secured.
 
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hockeyscratch said:
Here' my two cents after playing in many leagues over the last 20 years.

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APA treats their players like cattle. Poor handicapping system. Their handicapping system is NOT a handicapping system at all when you compare it to other sports. It's completely inaccurate on all levels. If you took the same handicapping system and applied it to tennis, Peter Sampress would have been a 2. Doesn't make any sense.

Scoring is a set back. Counting balls is like counting chickens....after a while ya just get plain dizzy. Sandbagger friendly.

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BCA system is not player friendly and too much work for the League Operator. However, their game play rules are great. Handicapping system is much like APA's and it not accurate at all. Sandbagger friendly. Player support is pitiful. You don't get any.

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TAP scoring is ridiculous, I still don't get it after two years, and their player support gets a -1 on the quality scale. In fact I am not sure that anyone works at the main office anymore. Scoring is sandbagger friendly.

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UPA - I'm clueless on this one. But looking at their web site says a lot. If their web site is any reflection on the organization of their league I would be concerned. Someone there needs to hire an html developer. Looks like the league was formed at the playground

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VNEA - No idea because I refuse to play on Valley tables. Being forced to play on a particular table is like being forced to use a jump cue as your break stick.

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NAPA is impressive...perhaps ingenious. Supposedly the brainchild of one man, from arkansas of all places. Its run like an ACTUAL federation/association. Much detail goes into the player and not someones pockets. Just take 2 minutes and look at a player page on their web site. You are actually able to see a players entire history and make comparisons on their trends. It's very clear how and why a player moves up and down on their handicap scale. It's a variant of the ELO system which is used by many sporting associations around the world. Not too mention local and national rankings...not just in skill...but performance as well. According to my local LO everything is maintained at their data center. Player support is a +9 and their response time to league issues on league night is amazingly fast. One time we had a foul issue in our 8-ball league, we called the main office at 10:30pm and someone named Amy picked up on the second ring. Problem solved. Sandbagging in this league has no benefit. Simple, effective and allows players to focus on their game and not that darn score sheet. They do not count balls so you won't get dizzy. Very nice. Excellent web site and player search. Player skill levels are very broad from 0 to 100 or more and my local pro players can join in. It's like getting free lessons.

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Synopsis: NAPA offers the most for your game because it is simply done right and has more attention to the players. It's understandable why there is a new NAPA league popping up on their facebook page practically every hour. If they keep things the same they will be the only game in town in a few years.
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Very well said Sir. Thanks for your support and pointing those out.

Zach
 
Jeff M said:
nOrisc,

What day of the week is NAPA played in the Columbus area? How far east does the league go from Columbus? I play APA in Newark, Oh (about 25 minutes east of New Albany). Want to play in some other leagues..Am a 5 in APA 8-ball but should probably be a 6 (not due to sandbagging though)...but I just started playing again after 4 years...It's sounds like NAPA might be a good league to play in..
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We do offer a league in Licking County. With the practices of APA stacking sessions right on top of each other which forces APA players to play 48 weeks out of a 52 week year, it has been difficult to slip in a Monday Divsion. It will take much help from fellow players in Newark to successfully have a Newark Division, and I would love to incorporate Newark/Heath into our travel assistance programs, and send several players to the 2013 NAPA Nationals. For Singles and Teams.

4 teams minimum to have a successful divsion. If getting 8 players is difficult per team, then we can do 7, or 5 person teams.. So in all reality to get something started this Summer, you could have as few as 12-20 players. It can be done in-house at one location, or traveling. Out of those 12-20 players 10 will acquire a qualification in either 8,9,10-ball every session.

Please fell free to call me at the league office anytime. The office number forwards straight to me. 614-750-7665

Zach.
 
n0risc said:
and I would love to incorporate Newark/Heath into our travel assistance programs, and send several players to the 2013 NAPA Nationals. For Singles and Teams.
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I also wanted to clarify that it is not necessary to acquire travel assistance from our program to attend and participate at any NAPA National Event. Our travel assistance program just enables those to travel and stay for free.

Zach.
 
Jeff M said:
nOrisc,

What day of the week is NAPA played in the Columbus area? How far east does the league go from Columbus? I play APA in Newark, Oh (about 25 minutes east of New Albany). Want to play in some other leagues..Am a 5 in APA 8-ball but should probably be a 6 (not due to sandbagging though)...but I just started playing again after 4 years...It's sounds like NAPA might be a good league to play in..
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Seeing how your captain is a APA rep, I dont think he would like that. I have talked to a few people around here and trying to do NAPA is like getting someone to cheat on a spouse. I would like to have a NAPA league down here just to see what it is all about. see if you can get any players and I will see what my team thinks maybe we find 25 people to start one.
 
stlerdave said:
Seeing how your captain is a APA rep, I dont think he would like that. I have talked to a few people around here and trying to do NAPA is like getting someone to cheat on a spouse. I would like to have a NAPA league down here just to see what it is all about. see if you can get any players and I will see what my team thinks maybe we find 25 people to start one.
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Smokey Ross has expressed some interest to Dave.
 
Come to this tournament and see how the handicaps work in person.
 

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n0risc said:
Keep in mind The NAPA is not a copy cat league. It is unique, true, adopted form by players for players, and by operators for operators.

The adopted ELO rating system NAPA uses is bar none the least manipulated scoring system ever invented, hence the reason why it's used for the most sophisticated game known to man, Chess.
Zach.
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This is like the truth, but the opposite. This Napa system is the most exploitable system ever invented. There are no National team events so you really dont play for anything all year except the few dollars you get at the end of the session and pride. This makes the the team competition a distant second behind the singles handicap manipulation which is widespread.

Case in point: Alex Olinger. Also from your region BTW. Is playing in NAPA. He has lost 9 of 16 matches in pool leagues to get his handicap down to 93 in 9ball and 102 in 8ball. At the same time he is crushing pro events. He beat Johnny Archer twice to win a southern classic event, Played a perfect accustats match agaist Larry nevel in another southern classic pro event. I am going to nashville next week to get his autograph and then try to spot him 2 games on the wire LOLOLOLOLOL
 
To the OP:

I play in one league, a BCA 8 Ball league for about 2 years. I enjoy it, it's my night out. I like the members, and the LO's are good peeps. I've no complaints. Just want to give you a frame of reference, my knowledge of leagues is limited compared to some who have posted here.

You seem to be down to two choices - the UPA or NAPA. Don't know much about the UPA league but so far no one has explained what the value-added is for the players in UPA.

Given this, the choice seems fairly easy. With most of these leagues, the main value-added for the players is a national tournament. Since from what I read here the UPA league doesn't have this I'm left wondering what it brings to the table for the player. For this reason alone I'd choose NAPA.

If there isn't some "carrot" for the players like a big national championship, why not just start your own proprietary league? Look at it this way: Say most of the weekly members dues is $10. If the corporate office is taking $2 (20%) that leaves $8. The LO has to make something for the effort so let's say that is another $2. That leaves $6 (60%) for pay-outs back to the members.

With a proprietary league you as the LO could take the $2 and pay back 80%. You could even take $3 and pay back 70% - both higher pay-backs than with an affiliation to an organization. Better still for the player is you take $1 and pay back 90%.

As a player, if my league has no national tournament, or has one but I don't usually participate, I'd prefer the proprietary league that pays back more to the players. Unless of course, there is some other value-added the national organization is bringing to the table - for the players.

Just my $0.02
 
GoBilliards said:
This is like the truth, but the opposite. This Napa system is the most exploitable system ever invented. There are no National team events so you really dont play for anything all year except the few dollars you get at the end of the session and pride. This makes the the team competition a distant second behind the singles handicap manipulation which is widespread.

Case in point: Alex Olinger. Also from your region BTW. Is playing in NAPA. He has lost 9 of 16 matches in pool leagues to get his handicap down to 93 in 9ball and 102 in 8ball. At the same time he is crushing pro events. He beat Johnny Archer twice to win a southern classic event, Played a perfect accustats match agaist Larry nevel in another southern classic pro event. I am going to nashville next week to get his autograph and then try to spot him 2 games on the wire LOLOLOLOLOL
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So he lost on purpose is what your saying? Or he got beat because he gave up? He felt the spot was too large? Have you personally talked to Alex about this or are you assuming this is the case and point?

Many people have beat Johnny Archer..
 
n0risc said:
So he lost on purpose is what your saying? Or he got beat because he gave up? He felt the spot was too large? Have you personally talked to Alex about this or are you assuming this is the case and point?

Many people have beat Johnny Archer..
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Ive never beat Johnny Archer. Let alone twice in the same tournament. Yet I will be the one spotting Alex 2 games on the wire. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's prolly a duck.

In addition I would be willing to bet that no one else in the NAPA league, has beat Johnny archer twice. You can't possibly think this is all fair do you? I would hope not.
 
BTW, 9-8 alt break perfect match (neither player miised a ball)vs Larry Nevel is actually more impressive than 2 matches vs. Archer. They are both examples of absurdity . Play with and crush the pros , then get weight from a bunch of bar league players.

I am embarrassed for you that you defend this position instead of trying to fix the obv problem.
 
GoBilliards said:
BTW, 9-8 alt break perfect match (neither player miised a ball)vs Larry Nevel is actually more impressive than 2 matches vs. Archer. They are both examples of absurdity . Play with and crush the pros , then get weight from a bunch of bar league players.

I am embarrassed for you that you defend this position instead of trying to fix the obv problem.
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I guess Heinz and the gang must be doing something right. People are making identities just to post half truths and try and discredit them.

Those events you speak of were handicapped. Obviously the "pros" were giving a lot of weight and lost.

There is a National Event. 9 Ball, 10 Ball & 8 Ball Just under 1000 entries.

Many Gearards,

Diff Lock
(aka Ray)
 
Half truths? wow. The event with archer was handicaped. He played archer 9-8 that was the handicap. Crushed him both sets. The set I was reffering to vs Larry Nevel was an even race and Alex lost 9-8 without ever missing a ball he was trying to make. The point was it was a perfect match. Neither player missed a ball.

If we are going to throw around statements like "half truths" we should get it right.

I'm not the one mincing words here. I asked a yes no question. Do you think it's fair for bar bangers to give alex multiple games on the wire? Simple: one answer has 3 letters and one has two.
 
GoBilliards said:
Half truths? wow. The event with archer was handicaped. He played archer 9-8 that was the handicap. Crushed him both sets. The set I was reffering to vs Larry Nevel was an even race and Alex lost 9-8 without ever missing a ball he was trying to make. The point was it was a perfect match. Neither player missed a ball.

If we are going to throw around statements like "half truths" we should get it right.

I'm not the one mincing words here. I asked a yes no question. Do you think it's fair for bar bangers to give alex multiple games on the wire? Simple: one answer has 3 letters and one has two.
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State your name and I will be happy to discuss. You are nothing more than a TROLL who made a handle just to hate.

Why don't you ask Tony when you are in Nashville playing in the NAPA league?

Ray
 
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I didnt make a Handle just to hate sir. I dont hate anyone. This happens to be a pending topic. NAPA nationals are hours away now. I would love it if someone would respond from NAPA. Responding to an email would have prevented this frustration, But I am sure they are very busy this week (and last week).

No discussion needed.

Still just a yes no question.

would have been way easier to answer than to dodge.
 
GoBilliards said:
I didnt make a Handle just to hate sir. I dont hate anyone. This happens to be a pending topic. NAPA nationals are hours away now. I would love it if someone would respond from NAPA. Responding to an email would have prevented this frustration, But I am sure they are very busy this week (and last week).

No discussion needed.

Still just a yes no question.

would have been way easier to answer than to dodge.
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Who's dodging? You come here anonymously, post half truths trying to make a case, and then make accusations.

You have zero creditability, and it doesn't appear that will change anytime soon.

Whatever Alex's handicap is, i'm sure it was fair. There is no conspiracy. NAPA deals in facts. That's what's makes it a great league. There its not a LO bumping you up because he wants more teams.

FTR, Johnny spotted Alex 4 games in a race to 13. That tournament was ranked by one person.

I asked you a very easy question. Your name. I guess you will remain a troll.

Ray
 
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