Natural ability VS. Trained ability

JB Cases said:
No one is saying that just because someone plays every day they would be world class.

What I am saying is that if you take someone and nurture them with the same amount of experience as Efren had, same type of learning experiences, same tutors, same everything then it's very likely that this person will be a world class player as well. Will they be as good as Efren? Probably not because that's where personality and cognitive skills come in.

So I'll agree with you then that champions are born if you'll agree that they are also formed.

Efren Reyes without any introduction to pool might have just been a world champion farmer instead. However he did become involved in pool and was competing against tough competition for money at a young age. There is no denying that these experiences honed his skill.

I am fairly certain that if Efren Reyes had been born in a remote village with one broken down pool table and no one to teach him more than the basics that he would never have reached any decent level in pool.

Do you at least agree with that?
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actually no i dont agree at all. many have had the same time as efren or me and instruction and everything else and they are b players and always will be.
let me put you on the spot .
do you think if you did everything say a guy on tour has done that you would play as good as him .
come on john let me hear you say hell yes i know you want too. not a long drawn out answer yes or no.
actually i can answer it for you. you have played as much as many pros already and i would think you would have a hard time competing on womens tour. its simple some people got that extra special ingredient and some dont.
to say if someone practiced and had the same help as the pros that they would certainly be world class is one of the most ridiculous things ive ever read on here.
ive got news for you the guys on tour are special at what they do and to dismiss it by saying almost anyone could do it is frankly rather insulting and one of the reasons im going dirt biking this weekend instead of wasting my time on here being told its a hanger to do what i do.
dont take this the wrong way but anybody could make a poolcase do you agree .
see what i mean
 
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I think someone with great natural ability could beat anyone when feeling it. The low game will drop though and some weaker guys will get the better of them. The trained guy will always be tough and you will need to play very good to win.

For example the natural guy might average 8th in events like this.

1st, 1st, 24th, 16th, 1st etc...

Trained would be something like

4th, 6th, 3rd, 16th, 12th, etc.

Thats my take on it.

I do think that the biggest factor is the mind. The guy with the mental game will give the 7 to both guys above.
 
Jason Robichaud said:
I think someone with great natural ability could beat anyone when feeling it. The low game will drop though and some weaker guys will get the better of them. The trained guy will always be tough and you will need to play very good to win.

For example the natural guy might average 8th in events like this.

1st, 1st, 24th, 16th, 1st etc...

Trained would be something like

4th, 6th, 3rd, 16th, 12th, etc.

Thats my take on it.

I do think that the biggest factor is the mind. The guy with the mental game will give the 7 to both guys above.
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i thinks thats pretty accurate. but both have talent to begin with or wouldnt be playing on tour anyway with i think
 
john schmidt said:
actually no i dont agree at all. many have had the same time as efren or me and instruction and everything else and they are b players and always will be.
let me put you on the spot .
do you think if you did everything say a guy on tour has done that you would play as good as him .
come on john let me hear you say hell yes i know you want too. not a long drawn out answer yes or no.
actually i can answer it for you. you have played as much as many pros already and i would think you would have a hard time competing on womens tour. its simple some people got that extra special ingredient and some dont.
to say if someone practiced and had the same help as the pros that they would certainly be world class is one of the most ridiculous things ive ever read on here.
ive got news for you the guys on tour are special at what they do and to dismiss it by saying almost anyone could do it is frankly rather insulting and one of the reasons im going dirt biking this weekend instead of wasting my time on here being told its a hanger to do what i do.
dont take this the wrong way but anybody could make a poolcase do you agree .
see what i mean
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Hell yes. I think anyone can make a pool cue case and I think just about anyone in the world can run 200 balls if they learn how to do it, get proper training, and gain the requisite experience.

I am totally taking it the wrong way because you seem to think that you and your fellow professionals are better human beings than other people are. Like you are superior or something. You're not. You excel at something because you chose to excel at it. You put in the time and training.

You're definitely uncool though. Too bad I thought you were halfway cool but I guess not.

I know for a fact that IF I had chosen to dedicate my life to pool and run with best players around that I would have become one of them. I have played straight pool a handful of times in my life and I have a 98 ball high run - does that make me special too?

Let me see if I can explain this too you slowly since obviously God or Genetics didn't give you much in the way of reading comprehension.

IF I had the same pool pedigree as most pros coupled with the desire to play at the highest level then I have no doubt that I could spot you all day. You're right John, champions are born and I guess uncool people are too.

Why don't you name anyone who you claim has had the same experience as Efren and is still a B player? Since you say that there all these people out there that have been playing pool since birth against champion caliber players and they are hopeless B players.

Go on. Just find one player who is a B player who can claim to have started at a young age and played pool nearly every day since, been mentored by champions the whole time, been on the road, played every game on every table since they were a child and is STILL just a B player.

You can't find one. But I can give you plenty of examples of people who got there through training, self admittedly. Neils Feijen, remember him, the WORLD STRAIGHT POOL CHAMPION. He credits his success not to overwhelming talent, I still remember when he was third string in Holland, but to intense training and road experience in the USA.

I will tell you what Mr. 400 - let's just bet on a little experiment.

Let's find a test where we can determine what level of hand/eye coordination a person has. We test 100 subjects and you get the top five people and I get the bottom five.

Your five are locked in a room for a month with nothing but a pool table and the rules of 14.1.

My five get a month with an instructor focusing on 14.1.

I will bet you any amount that my five will wipe the floor with your five.

I can't believe the nonsense you spew about being better than other people. Yes you play pool better than most but a 19 year old kid in Taiwan plays better than you do. Is he more talented than you are or did he train harder? I am a good cue case maker because I have worked at it for 17 years not because I was born to it. And the fact is that anyone can do what I do in faster time if they want to put in the effort to learn. Anyone can dissect what I make and find ways to make it better. If I had apprenticed under Chas Clements then I would be even better than I am now.

Dedication, education, and experience make people world class at whatever they choose to do. Not some "special" gene that makes them better than everyone else.
 
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Just how is it John that you can figure that I "have played as much as many pros"?

Where do find a basis for that statement? Because I have been around the game so much? Because I know a lot of pros or they know me?

What makes you think that I have put in as much time as the pros or even if I did that the time was spent in the same way?

That's my point that you are making for me. I said IF one has the SAME experience level, the same mentoring, and the same dedication then they can't help but to become a world class player.

If someone is missing some or all of that then they probably won't become a world class player.

Don't start making assumptions about me to try and prove your point, it won't get you anywhere.

I will agree with you though that you are special.
 
Ans another thing Mr. Can't Read:

NO ONE HAS SAID THAT IT IS A HANGER TO DO WHAT YOU DO. We ALL understand the hard work and dedication it takes to be a professional class pool player.
 
JB Cases said:
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I will tell you what Mr. 400 - let's just bet on a little experiment.

Let's find a test where we can determine what level of hand/eye coordination a person has. We test 100 subjects and you get the top five people and I get the bottom five.

Your five are locked in a room for a month with nothing but a pool table and the rules of 14.1.

My five get a month with an instructor focusing on 14.1.

I will bet you any amount that my five will wipe the floor with your five.
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I'll take John's 5.
 
john schmidt said:
im sorry the truth hurts barton.i would argue with you all day but im too busy being world class .bye for now wanna be.
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OMG you are about the biggest egoist I have ever seen hold a pool cue.

In my book you have just surpassed them all for being overbearingly smug.

Next time you want to beg the forum for backing remind them of how "special" and far above them you are.
 
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And another thing Mr Contradiction:

When you were having your barking session with Chamillionaire, the ex-communicated snooker pro - I sadi something to the effect that I thought that any top snooker player could learn to play world class 14.1 in a fairly short time and you jumped my ass for saying that.

Yet here you are arguing the opposite point by saying that you were able run 7 centuries and one 145 in just a few months. I guess top snooker players aren't as special as you are. I really don't understand why you beg us to back you when you could be in England earning millions. Don't you know that you'd be as popular as Jasmin in the World Ten Ball championship if you went to the mecca of snooker and tried to win?

So which is it? Are people able to learn to excel OR is it only reserved for the special ones?

Don't answer, world class people like you have no time for the little people.

John Barton - secretly hoping to be as good as John Schmidt
 
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hi

your not worth arguing with barton. i clearly see you have major inferiority issues and self esteem problems. im the first to admit im no better than anybody else . im just sick of jealous haters like you taking the credit away from people who have made it at something and saying like you did if i played as much as you i could spot you. you need to take a breath and relax before you hurt yourself.
i think im going to get rich and develop a pill that makes people non jealous,hatefull,know it all,more talented,smart,and less goofy looking .
i think im going to overnight you a months supply free because you need it more than anybody ive ever met . all kidding aside lighten up john
 
john schmidt said:
im sorry the truth hurts barton.i would argue with you all day but im too busy being world class .bye for now wanna be.
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Actually, you can't. In this game I can spot you the rainbow and I am stone cold stealing. Run away and be special at something else because you have no shot at beating me at this game.
 
john schmidt said:
your not worth arguing with barton. i clearly see you have major inferiority issues and self esteem problems. im the first to admit im no better than anybody else . im just sick of jealous haters like you taking the credit away from people who have made it at something and saying like you did if i played as much as you i could spot you. you need to take a breath and relax before you hurt yourself.
i think im going to get rich and develop a pill that makes people non jealous,hatefull,know it all,more talented,smart,and less goofy looking .
i think im going to overnight you a months supply free because you need it more than anybody ive ever met . all kidding aside lighten up john
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Really, the first to admit it huh?

When did I take the credit away from anyone? If you spent more time here you'd find me to be someone who is very much attuned to how tough it is to become a world class player and who give tons of respect for being one.

You started the insulting behavior John, if you can't take what you dish out then stop serving it.

Jealous? Not hardly. Sorry John but I have never had to beg anyone to back my pool playing or my case making. It's a sad state of affairs when a world class player such as yourself does not have backers lined up and has to come to an open forum and solicit backing. Or when your backer takes you to Valley Forge and they won't let you play because he doesn't like the odds.

You seem to be the one who takes offense anytime someone suggests that hard work and dedication can also make a champion. You seem to think that we are knocking your level by suggesting that anyone can reach it. But you fail to read all the way through because we tack on special conditions that NOT EVERYONE can fulfill, like dedication, experience, getting the right mentoring, mental ability.

Your inferiority complex completely blocks all that and all you see is APA2 is as good as John Schmidt............................NO ONE SAID OR IMPLIED THAT.

Jesus John, we all think you are world class and no one is saying that joe blow is going to be as good as you with a copy of Byrne's book and unlimited time. Try reading through the material and thinking about the other side's point of view BEFORE coming to the assumption that simply disagreeing with you is insulting your accomplishments.
 
JB Cases said:
Really, the first to admit it huh?

When did I take the credit away from anyone? If you spent more time here you'd find me to be someone who is very much attuned to how tough it is to become a world class player and who give tons of respect for being one.

You started the insulting behavior John, if you can't take what you dish out then stop serving it.

Jealous? Not hardly. Sorry John but I have never had to beg anyone to back my pool playing or my case making. It's a sad state of affairs when a world class player such as yourself does not have backers lined up and has to come to an open forum and solicit backing. Or when your backer takes you to Valley Forge and they won't let you play because he doesn't like the odds.

You seem to be the one who takes offense anytime someone suggests that hard work and dedication can also make a champion. You seem to think that we are knocking your level by suggesting that anyone can reach it. But you fail to read all the way through because we tack on special conditions that NOT EVERYONE can fulfill, like dedication, experience, getting the right mentoring, mental ability.

Your inferiority complex completely blocks all that and all you see is APA2 is as good as John Schmidt............................NO ONE SAID OR IMPLIED THAT.

Jesus John, we all think you are world class and no one is saying that joe blow is going to be as good as you with a copy of Byrne's book and unlimited time. Try reading through the material and thinking about the other side's point of view BEFORE coming to the assumption that simply disagreeing with you is insulting your accomplishments.
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j.b. your backtracking bigtime.youve said you can spot me if you play as much as me. i know you believe that b.s. too. anyway you called me a few cursewords already and i havent cursed you once and wont.
im done with this crap im going dirt biking for a few days . if you feel the need to call me anymore names be sure and drop by the ob booth at the derby and do it in person because i dont type fast enough to argue with you on here.take care
 
john schmidt said:
im just sick of jealous haters like you taking the credit away from people who have made it at something and saying like you did if i played as much as you i could spot you.
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How do you know I couldn't? How do you know that I am not more talented than you are?

I mean let's just use your logic for a moment and assume that some people are really just born with more talent. If that's the case then how do you know I don't have more talent than you do?

I mean I said I played 14.1 a handful of times and I have a 98 ball run. How many could I run if I really studied the game and played as much as you do?

By your logic training has less to do with it than natural ability and some people just "have it" and others don't and never will amount to anything.

So by that logic there is someone out there who has more natural ability and is by default better than you do, why can't that person be me? Just because you don't like me? Because you don't agree with me? You just have that "feeling" that I don't "have it"?

I suppose that I am just as entitled to think that I could be better than you as you are entitled to think I could never make it on the WPBA. Neither of us have any way of knowing if that is true because I will never have put in the time or gained the experience that you have.

However I know myself and what I am capable of and you do not. I know what your skill level is and what I would need to be able to do to reach it.

I am not willing to do that just as you are not willing to do what it takes to compete with the snooker pros. Don't you think that using your logic though by saying how you ran those centuries so easily after just a few months of tinkering that you are not denigrating the accomplishments of the top snooker players? Are you being a hater to them?

Think about it John.
 
john schmidt said:
j.b. your backtracking bigtime.youve said you can spot me if you play as much as me. i know you believe that b.s. too. anyway you called me a few cursewords already and i havent cursed you once and wont.
im done with this crap im going dirt biking for a few days . if you feel the need to call me anymore names be sure and drop by the ob booth at the derby and do it in person because i dont type fast enough to argue with you on here.take care
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Believe me if you act like an ass to me in person as you have done here then you can bet you'll earn that moniker in person as well.

I'd like to see you stand around at the OB1 booth and tell all their customers that you are better than them and that they have no chance to ever reach your level. See how far that goes with your employer.

You don't think fast enough to debate with me civilly. You have a one track mind and it's whoever doesn't worship John Schmidt is a hater.
 
I have to agree with John S. on the nature versus nurture argument.

But that isn't going to stop me from trying to eke out the best I can through practicing and learning.

From a marketing standpoint, I would imagine that most bangers would like to think they can become good through use of the right products, lessons by the right teachers, reading the right books. It's probably best not to disillusion them if you need to sell them something.
 
JB Cases said:
Believe me if you act like an ass to me in person as you have done here then you can bet you'll earn that moniker in person as well.

I'd like to see you stand around at the OB1 booth and tell all their customers that you are better than them and that they have no chance to ever reach your level. See how far that goes with your employer.

You don't think fast enough to debate with me civilly. You have a one track mind and it's whoever doesn't worship John Schmidt is a hater.
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barton fed ex only works so fast . your pill is on the way relax.
furthermore i see now your an idiot and believe me ill say that to your face.
 
hi

john schmidt said:
barton fed ex only works so fast . your pill is on the way relax.
furthermore i see now your an idiot and believe me ill say that to your face.
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also if someone around the booth starts talking stupid like you and saying i could be as good as you all i have to do is play as much.
i wont have to tell them anything the people standing around will tell them they are smoking crack. get a life please
 
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