Natural ability VS. Trained ability

[ShootingArts]

I agree with the other players

Wins against a soft field or when the favorites were having a bad day meant little to me. To be worth bragging about I had to beat the best in the usual field when they were having a good day.

There is a very small percentage of people like Tiger who are genuinely competing against themselves and history. Allison Fisher is another. She wasn't satisfied with dominating woman's pool for all of those years, she was hungry to win every event and hugely disappointed if she didn't. That kind of internal drive is one of the things that leads to greatness in all arenas not just sports. That is a gift or a curse but I do believe it is there from birth. A few people in history with this drive set out to conquer the world and damned near did it.

Hu

this is where I'm with you. Like I mentioned with Tiger...watch the 2000 US OPEN, he doesn't just want to win, he wants to destroy you and make you believe there is no way to beat him. He also is playing against HISTORY, he needs to hear that noboby has ever done this or that better; the records mean quite a bit to him as well (winning by the lowest score EVER, beating the field by the most strokes, winning more tourneys, and majors than anyone, etc.). Sometimes winning isn't enough...he wants to step on your neck in the process, and make you think twice about even trying again, regardless how talented, or great of a player you are. Just listen to the absolute BEST players in the world when asked about winning without him in the field....they believe it doesn't mean as much either. Now that is a CHAMPION!!

 

[JB Cases]

Neil,

One of the reasons that I keep my mouth shut about matchs that seem blatantly uneven is I have seen a far lesser player overall take a far better player often enough to know that ignorance can be a great equalizer. I have also known many players that look around at the competition and "know" they can't beat this one and that one so the best finish they believe is possible might be top five or top ten. I know of no greater self-fulfilling prophecy than thinking you can't beat someone. On the other hand "knowing" that anyone can be beaten on a given day empowers a player.

Hu

I played a good Filipino guy in South Florida once and beat him. We had started out playing in a five or six handed ring game until it was only us two. I jacked the bet to 50 and 100 and we kept playing and I was winning. UNTIL Adam Schick walked in and saw who I playing and the first words he said to me is "What are you getting?" meaning what weight was I getting. I said, "nothing, we are playing 5&9 for 50/100 and I am up 600". The next thing Adam says is you need the 6 ball at least.

I said I didn't think so and kept playing but inside I was now wondering. I resolved to quit even and he pulled up when I was 400 winner.

And that was before I knew that anyone with a Filipino passport was barred.

 

[Seneca Steve]

I think exposure to good and/or great players is essential to becoming a great player. Pool has an abstract element that is difficult to realize without help.

 

[Impact Blue]

I think exposure to good and/or great players is essential to becoming a great player. Pool has an abstract element that is difficult to realize without help.

Yeah, I think this 100% as well.

Equally, I haven't heard of a single situation where someone who shares insight with a lesser speed player, especially over time, that doesn't have a love for the game.

And to see many of the things to mature your game will cost you something. Money, pride...and time, for certain.

 

[fan-tum]

Ever notice that many champions in all areas suffered severe adversity in life before becoming champions? Nothing like a silver spoon to discourage greatness. Take a million people with the same training, the same starting age, and the same desire and you would have thousands that could beat Efren on a given day. You would have over a hundred thousand pro level players. It doesn't take that unusual of natural ability to play at a pro level, rather it is what you do with that natural ability.

Hu

Sorry, but you are totally wrong. I've heard so many people say,"well sure, if all I had to do was play and practice all the time, I'd be a champ, too. Maybe a champ, but not a top ten player.

 

[ShootingArts]

Really? Totally wrong?

Sorry, but you are totally wrong. I've heard so many people say,"well sure, if all I had to do was play and practice all the time, I'd be a champ, too. Maybe a champ, but not a top ten player.

Actually when you say that a person can be a champ out of billions in the world you are agreeing with me about it not taking that special of talents however I never said that having the time to play and practice alone would do it. Top ten is pretty elite. However define what you think are the innate advantages that a great pool player must have. The physical or mental attributes please. Yes there will be a follow up question after you define what it takes to be a top player.

Hu

 

[JB Cases]

Sorry, but you are totally wrong. I've heard so many people say,"well sure, if all I had to do was play and practice all the time, I'd be a champ, too. Maybe a champ, but not a top ten player.

He didn't say that they would be top ten players. But there would definitely be a much broader base of players who play at world class speed.

John Schmidt makes a good point about golf and all the people who try to qualify for the tour each year.

I think that last time I checked there are several hundred ranked golfers in the PGA. That means, if I understand it right, that there are hundreds of people who play world class according to the PGA's standards and who have qualified to play on Tour. Please correct me if I am wrong. That means that there are thousands more who are just shy of that speed trying to get there and thousand more below them also trying hard to get better and better.

I think that any of these PGA players could beat Tiger on any given day. Not day in and day out but given that good day where it all comes together then they can beat Tiger. These are the guys who make up the bulk of the Tour who have to play over their heads to beat the top guys. They are what world class is.

In pool we already have hundreds of players worldwide who don't play pool full time who could take a race to nine off Efren now and then. What would it be like if we had thousands and tens of thousands of player TRYING to become world class?

What would the landscape look like?

As the chess study concluded with - the top guys would still be the top guys and their ratings would be even higher.

Yes, it takes something extra to be in the top ten. Is that extra experience? Heart? Brains? Autistic-like performance?

In a hundred years this question and it's answer will be completely different.

 

[JB Cases]

I think exposure to good and/or great players is essential to becoming a great player. Pool has an abstract element that is difficult to realize without help.

Absolutely. Champions breed champions. I can't tell you the amount of times I have learned something from a champion that isn't "taught" in books or on tapes.

This applies in so many endeavors it's not even funny.

Ten years of working leather by myself wouldn't equal one year of apprenticeship under Chas Clements.

 

[ShootingArts]

OK, I'll ask the obvious

It is apparent that my last post will be ignored so I will ask the obvious:

If the pro level and better pool players are the result of natural gifts, eyesight, hand/eye coordination, a smoothly and gracefully functioning body, all the physical attributes needed in some sports such as gymnastics, why are players able to play and play at a top level into their fifties and even sometimes sixties? According to his statements, Efren was probably legally blind besides being in his early fifties before eye surgery.

We peak both physically and mentally before we are thirty in every way but possibly raw strength. If natural gifts are what makes a pool player why isn't a young player that is more naturally gifted in every way we can measure able to beat an older player with the knowledge and skills that a lifetime of playing pool brings?

If natural ability was the primary factor most youngsters with a couple years experience should be able to beat basically any player in their mid-forties or older as testing not related to pool would demonstrate that their natural abilities and gifts were greater at this point in time. Not going to happen because training trumps natural gifts and the top older players have decades of training behind them.

Hu

Actually when you say that a person can be a champ out of billions in the world you are agreeing with me about it not taking that special of talents however I never said that having the time to play and practice alone would do it. Top ten is pretty elite. However define what you think are the innate advantages that a great pool player must have. The physical or mental attributes please. Yes there will be a follow up question after you define what it takes to be a top player.

Hu

 

[PistolPat]

Imho.......

Either your're born with it or you're not, yeah a lot of people say that, but truthfully it's the best of both worlds. Tiger Woods for example I believe was born to play golf. I mean his dad DID teach him ever since he was a baby, but he learned fast at such a young age, kept it up and grew up to be perhaps one of the best ever if not THE best ever golfer in history. Michael Jordan didnt have that kind of luck, he was cut from his highschool freshmen tryouts! What did he do after that? He worked hard as he could and kept it up to become the best the game has ever known. I believe that both exist, those who are the best becasue they have a natural "KNACK" for game and those who are the best because of thier drive and desire to be the best. In my opinion..... Anyone can be great with anything that they do, they all just have to have one thing that a keeps them going to push themselves harder everyday and that's HEART.

 

[Banks]

Anybody turn pro(speed) with their hours and lessons since this thread?

 

[Jaden]

You have natural ability that must be honed.

I was just wondering what you all that about training and practicing and how no matter how much someone could practice if they could achieve the ability of someone as naturally gifted like Efren or some of the other greats. I'm sure practice has helped these fantastic players but deep down they are just absolutely gifted with pool playing ability.

It's like a traditional japanese sword. You can have iron that is naturally better than other iron, that has fewer impurities so to speak...

But until it is forged into a sword it will NEVER be all that great. The better the forger, the more time and care and most importantly KNOWLEDGE, the better the sword that comes out will be.

Now that illustration is imperfect because to a certain degree, the pool player is also the forger. Some people have a higher intelligence, especially visual spatial intelligence that allows them to more easily achieve great pool playing, but the most important thing is knowledge.

The best players didn't just naturally know what to do, even Efren. They learned over time, either by being taken under the wing of other great players, watching other great players or figuring out through tons and tons of focused practice.

They were honed over long periods of time like a great Japanese sword.

Many of the best people in all things were told by others that they had no chance and it was pure dedication and determination that led to their greatness.

Don't let anyone tell you, you don't have enough talent, or are too old, or anything.

If you want something, do what you have to do to achieve it.

Jaden

 

[West Point 1987]

Natural ability gives a player the head start that others can never catch up to. You can go to multiple camps/coaches, work your butt off and become a pretty decent baseball pitcher...but unless you have that natural ability, you'll never throw a 100mph fast ball or be able to pitch a no-hitter. Pool is no different. You can play for decades and get to pro speed, place high or even win some big tournies, but the natural player that does the same thing will always play a few balls better. Some guys picked up a cue and could aim and stroke pretty straight from the get go...without a lot of agonizing over how to aim, what's my right arm doing, how many measuring strokes to I take, etc. Hard to fade that kind of head start.

 

[Jaden]

I want to know how people know this????

Natural ability gives a player the head start that others can never catch up to. You can go to multiple camps/coaches, work your butt off and become a pretty decent baseball pitcher...but unless you have that natural ability, you'll never throw a 100mph fast ball or be able to pitch a no-hitter. Pool is no different. You can play for decades and get to pro speed, place high or even win some big tournies, but the natural player that does the same thing will always play a few balls better. Some guys picked up a cue and could aim and stroke pretty straight from the get go...without a lot of agonizing over how to aim, what's my right arm doing, how many measuring strokes to I take, etc. Hard to fade that kind of head start.

How do you know that no one can train harder to pitch 100 mph??? How do you know that the people who were able to had natural talent and didn't just work their asses off harder than everybody else???

You can't tell anybody what they can and can't achieve, because you'll look the fool in retrospect.

Jaden

 

[leto1776]

Hardly anything natural about pool playing,which is why I'm dismissive when I read about someone being a "natural player." This topic was discussed in Pleasures of Small Motions,btw

 

[CJ Wiley]

the mystery and mystique....it is more mentally natural than physically. imho

Natural ability gives a player the head start that others can never catch up to. You can go to multiple camps/coaches, work your butt off and become a pretty decent baseball pitcher...but unless you have that natural ability, you'll never throw a 100mph fast ball or be able to pitch a no-hitter. Pool is no different. You can play for decades and get to pro speed, place high or even win some big tournies, but the natural player that does the same thing will always play a few balls better. Some guys picked up a cue and could aim and stroke pretty straight from the get go...without a lot of agonizing over how to aim, what's my right arm doing, how many measuring strokes to I take, etc. Hard to fade that kind of head start.

I'm not sure there's really a "natural" ability in pool....that would indicate pocket billiards is "natural"....even starting out at age 7 I knew pool was far from "natural" and that was part of the mystery and mystique....it is more mentally natural than physically. imho

Pool's a very unnatural thing for a human body to do, that's why most of the "secrets" are counterintuitive. I don't think anyone will take the position that we were put on this earth in any way, shape, or form to play pool....or golf, or tennis, or even chess.

The champion players figure something out that few "real eyes," even if they're told directly "if it feels right it's probably wrong".....or at least there's probably a more effective way to do it.....and such is life. 'The Game is my Teacher' ... who is yours?

 

[West Point 1987]

How do you know that no one can train harder to pitch 100 mph??? How do you know that the people who were able to had natural talent and didn't just work their asses off harder than everybody else???

You can't tell anybody what they can and can't achieve, because you'll look the fool in retrospect.

Jaden

The OP's original proposition was that could someone without natural ability train hard enough to be as good or surpass someone who trained as hard and had natural ability. The math doesn't indicate that's possible. Once you get a 100mph pitch across the plate, I'd say that's indicative of having had more natural abiltiy than you might have thought, in ADDITION to the training. I'm a big fan of believing in yourself, but the theoretical question of can you surpass someone with natural ability who practices just as hard as you do can't be answered "yes". All things being equal, you started out at a different point, so you both finish at different points.

 

[CJ Wiley]

there's "natural" athletes who have an advantage at any sport.

The OP's original proposition was that could someone without natural ability train hard enough to be as good or surpass someone who trained as hard and had natural ability. The math doesn't indicate that's possible. Once you get a 100mph pitch across the plate, I'd say that's indicative of having had more natural abiltiy than you might have thought, in ADDITION to the training. I'm a big fan of believing in yourself, but the theoretical question of can you surpass someone with natural ability who practices just as hard as you do can't be answered "yes". All things being equal, you started out at a different point, so you both finish at different points.

It may be essential to have above average Hand/Eye coordination to play championship pool....and it may also be essential to have a "great right/left arm" to pitch in the majors.

Maybe the point is there's "natural" athletes who have an advantage at any sport. hmmm

 

[Jaden]

Without achievement, you can't know who has it and who doesn't...

The OP's original proposition was that could someone without natural ability train hard enough to be as good or surpass someone who trained as hard and had natural ability. The math doesn't indicate that's possible. Once you get a 100mph pitch across the plate, I'd say that's indicative of having had more natural abiltiy than you might have thought, in ADDITION to the training. I'm a big fan of believing in yourself, but the theoretical question of can you surpass someone with natural ability who practices just as hard as you do can't be answered "yes". All things being equal, you started out at a different point, so you both finish at different points.

You can't know who has it and who doesn't without the achievement.

Often times, it is the people who seem to get really good at something really quickly that are said to have the natural talent, but my bet would be that NO ONE is immediately world class and that those who do learn quickly that go on to be world class at any sport immediately had someone who were already accomplished take them under their wing and teach them the right way to do things.

Most world class people at all walks of life had someone who was a world class coach, teaching them from an early age and were reinforced positively throughout their development.

I had a friend who I taught how to play pool. He took it seriously, there was nothing natural about it except his dedication and my knowledge and he was an A player within a year and a half and a short stop within 3 years.

He could have probably gone all the way had there been any reward in it. and he may still.

Prior to meeting me he had only occasionally banged balls with his friends and had never ran more than two balls.

He didn't start taking pool seriously until he was 21 years old.

The only limitations are those we place on ourselves.

Jaden

p.s. I would argue that ALMOST anyone that had the same dedication and access to good instruction could achieve the same level.

 

[West Point 1987]

It may be essential to have above average Hand/Eye coordination to play championship pool....and it may also be essential to have a "great right/left arm" to pitch in the majors.

Maybe the point is there's "natural" athletes who have an advantage at any sport. hmmm

Exactly my point. I believe that's why top level pro pool players are also gifted at other sports that require the ability to execute rather complicated complex movements in simple, predictable and repeatable ways and excel at golf, tennis, bowling, etc.