natural talent or practice talent you decide, this should settle it
- Thread starter getsome01
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Sometimes you can push a kid too far. I was watching the old Mike Douglas show years ago and Connie Francis was the guest for the week. They surprised her with her old piano teacher from when she was a kid and she refused to play the piano, said it was a traumatic experience for her.
no doubt that natural talent can't be taught and it is a true gift that is a huge advantage. But those of us with a little natural talent and a lot of heart and hard work can TASTE greatness for a moment... and that can be just as satisfying and just as amazing. If someone without the natural talent can run through a pro tournament and win, even if its only once in their life, its a great achievement and should be appreciated in its own right.
That being said, I wish I was born with the SVB/Archer/Efren talents. it'd be a lot easier. :grin:
That being said, I wish I was born with the SVB/Archer/Efren talents. it'd be a lot easier. :grin:
Didn't Tommy win the U.S. Open ...I think that is major
read the book outliers. it has been discussed many times on here. 10,000 hrs to achieve excellance in anything. this girl has been tutored by the best of the best. her grandmother specializes in teaching children music at a high level.
does anybody think this girl is far along the path to 10,000 hours? sorry nobody is born with it. exposure at a young age and lots of hours at a young age = prodigy
does anybody think this girl is far along the path to 10,000 hours? sorry nobody is born with it. exposure at a young age and lots of hours at a young age = prodigy
??????
read the book outliers. it has been discussed many times on here. 10,000 hrs to achieve excellance in anything. this girl has been tutored by the best of the best. her grandmother specializes in teaching children music at a high level.
does anybody think this girl is far along the path to 10,000 hours? sorry nobody is born with it. exposure at a young age and lots of hours at a young age = prodigy
do you think this guy has 10,000 hours of practice? he's only been painting 1 year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ5sXuUQBC4
read the book outliers. it has been discussed many times on here. 10,000 hrs to achieve excellance in anything. this girl has been tutored by the best of the best. her grandmother specializes in teaching children music at a high level.
does anybody think this girl is far along the path to 10,000 hours? sorry nobody is born with it. exposure at a young age and lots of hours at a young age = prodigy
do you think this guy has 10,000 hours of practice? he's only been painting 1 year. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ5sXuUQBC4
Yeah, because Tommy Kennedy has the lowest aptitude for pool playing in the history of homo sapiens.
LOL-That's exactly what I was thinking! Like Tommy can't make a ball or draw his rock!
The point is..Tommy just does not have the physical talents that some other pros have, and he was able to overcome this deficit through long long long hours of practice.
It may have taken him many more hours than it took Johnny, but he got at least far enough along the path to become a dominant regional player, which is all I was ever talking about.
Every time this nature vs nurture argument comes up, people always put words in my mouth and act like I am saying anyone can play like Johnny Archer if they practice hard enough.
NO.. What I SAID is that a HUGE amount of people can achieve a very very high level of play if they are afforded unlimited practice time, access to champions, and other elements of the proper environment.
I can say from my personal observations, is that most of the people who DO have this unlimited practice time are either
A. Too old. Pool is a young man's game.
B. Not practicing right, and no one knowledgable is there to mentor them along the right path.
or
C. Are too comfortable in life to have the "hunger" needed to fuel 12 hour practice marathons.
I personally think that an unrelenting hatred of losing, which fuels one's practice, along with enough intelligence to know how to practice properly and to learn from watching great players, are the two overriding prerequisites to reach shortstop ability and above. I think the physical talent IS required to play consistently at world class speed, but not to have "flashes" of world class talent for a tournament.
Russ
It may have taken him many more hours than it took Johnny, but he got at least far enough along the path to become a dominant regional player, which is all I was ever talking about.
Every time this nature vs nurture argument comes up, people always put words in my mouth and act like I am saying anyone can play like Johnny Archer if they practice hard enough.
NO.. What I SAID is that a HUGE amount of people can achieve a very very high level of play if they are afforded unlimited practice time, access to champions, and other elements of the proper environment.
I can say from my personal observations, is that most of the people who DO have this unlimited practice time are either
A. Too old. Pool is a young man's game.
B. Not practicing right, and no one knowledgable is there to mentor them along the right path.
or
C. Are too comfortable in life to have the "hunger" needed to fuel 12 hour practice marathons.
I personally think that an unrelenting hatred of losing, which fuels one's practice, along with enough intelligence to know how to practice properly and to learn from watching great players, are the two overriding prerequisites to reach shortstop ability and above. I think the physical talent IS required to play consistently at world class speed, but not to have "flashes" of world class talent for a tournament.
Russ
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Not everyone has talent. It is such a thrown around term that it has lost it's meaning. People with an 1600 ELO rating in chess claim they have a talent for chess. I've heard D players say they had a gift for pool and guitarists who couldn't make it through a pentatonic scale claim they were born to play. BS.
It is important to note though that none of this comes without work, even for the kids. I've known gifted children before and they all put a lot of time and practice into their craft. The difference is, for many of them it's what they want to do so practice isn't as labored as it is for others. We overlook this generally because at the start they are good for their age then great for their age and eventually just great. If you put on an adult (or even an 18 year old) through the exact same progression they are similarily percieved as terrible, not bad, good then great.
The 10,000 hours is meant to be the amount of time it takes to become a master. None of the links provided dispprove this since, with the exception of the previous little girl posted and the 11 year old electric guitarist, none of them are masters. They're good, but not masters. Not yet anyways.
No one picks up a guitar their first time and plays eruption. But no one plays that song (flawlessly) without tons of aptitude.
I am speaking from experience as guitar teacher who taught both privately and commerically. I was also considered by many to be the most technically profficient player in the city where I went to high school, which I achieved after 4 years practice (but I worked DAMN hard for that). Not to be immodest, just stating where I am coming from.
It is important to note though that none of this comes without work, even for the kids. I've known gifted children before and they all put a lot of time and practice into their craft. The difference is, for many of them it's what they want to do so practice isn't as labored as it is for others. We overlook this generally because at the start they are good for their age then great for their age and eventually just great. If you put on an adult (or even an 18 year old) through the exact same progression they are similarily percieved as terrible, not bad, good then great.
The 10,000 hours is meant to be the amount of time it takes to become a master. None of the links provided dispprove this since, with the exception of the previous little girl posted and the 11 year old electric guitarist, none of them are masters. They're good, but not masters. Not yet anyways.
No one picks up a guitar their first time and plays eruption. But no one plays that song (flawlessly) without tons of aptitude.
I am speaking from experience as guitar teacher who taught both privately and commerically. I was also considered by many to be the most technically profficient player in the city where I went to high school, which I achieved after 4 years practice (but I worked DAMN hard for that). Not to be immodest, just stating where I am coming from.
Tommy does have a great natural talent for eating...but I didn't know he liked Carraba's. :smile:
"Willie's Game," Mosconi talking about a game of pool he played at age 6:
"One day a friend of [my dad ] came into the pool hall looking for a game, but the place was deserted. He asked my father to play, but he was busy.
"I'll play you," I said to the man.
"Okay, young fella," he said, "let's see if we can find a cue stick that's not too heavy for you."
He broke open the balls, patted me on the head, and said, "there you go, now do your stuff."
I ran 14 balls and left one for the break. He called my father over, and my father watched as I ran a second rack and got started on a third. Picking off the balls was easy. The hard part was getting up and down from the box and moving it around the table."
Willie played a lot because he liked it. He liked it because he was good at it. He was good at it because he played a lot. Sure it's a cycle, but it starts with a gift.
"One day a friend of [my dad ] came into the pool hall looking for a game, but the place was deserted. He asked my father to play, but he was busy.
"I'll play you," I said to the man.
"Okay, young fella," he said, "let's see if we can find a cue stick that's not too heavy for you."
He broke open the balls, patted me on the head, and said, "there you go, now do your stuff."
I ran 14 balls and left one for the break. He called my father over, and my father watched as I ran a second rack and got started on a third. Picking off the balls was easy. The hard part was getting up and down from the box and moving it around the table."
Willie played a lot because he liked it. He liked it because he was good at it. He was good at it because he played a lot. Sure it's a cycle, but it starts with a gift.
I think there are rare individuals who are born with more talent than most but I strongly believe there are world champions in various disciplines who got there through sheer perseverance, they just had to work harder than others. The great snooker player Steve Davis is one example, he admits he didn't have a lot of natural talent so he practiced 3 times more and harder than anyone else. He would place a glass of water on his bridge hand and practice stroking to make sure it was stable and still. He would practice the stroke straightener shot were you shoot the cue ball uptable and have it come back to the cue tip for 2 hours straight! No one else was practicing nearly as hard as Davis and that's why he completely dominated the game in the 1980's and is one of the greatest snooker players of all time.
Great word....so are you autodidactic ?
and I believe this story is absolute total bs until someone that was there says "yup I seen it with my own eyes"
Maybe so. I am, however, quoting from an autobiography, and it's not like Mosconi needed to pad his credentials. Here are his direct thoughts on this thread's subject matter, taken from page 9:
"Most of the great players are naturals. They pick up a cue stick and it just feels right, they have an intuitive sense of what to do with it. You can tell just by the way they hold the stick, how they make a bridge, the rhythm of their stroke. That's the way it was with me. I could set up shots and make them, whereas if I set up the same shot for someone else and told him exactly what to do, he still might not be able to make it. I don't think you can teach someone to be a great billiard player. I never heard of any of the top players taking lessons, the way you do in golf or tennis. Most of them started out young and picked it up by playing and observing. So natural ability is essential, but it won't take you to the top. Just as in any other pursuit, you have to put in the time. It take hours of practice, day after day, and right about the time you think you're as good as you can ever be, you see another player do something you never even thought about --a new way to make a shot or play position, or a defensive strategy that can change the momentum of a game. . . ."
If I recall Mosconi's bio correctly, that wasn't the first time he played. He had been playing on his own many times when his dad wasn't around, imitating what he saw the adult players do.
Given that I tend to believe the story. For a talent like Mosconi, 2+ racks of straight pool at age 6 is plausible.