Natural talent or practice?

Bob Callahan

Bob Callahan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
This debate comes up every so often on this forum. Here's some new information:

"In other words, top performers in complex fields like medicine, math and chess become that way through repeated and focused practice that builds their skills until their performance seems almost super-human — rather than being born with highly exceptional skill.

...

Or to phrase it differently, it seems plausible that many more people than commonly believed (but perhaps not all people!) have sufficient innate skill to perform at world-class levels in complex fields with sufficient practice; the problem is that they do not undertake the necessary practice."

From: The Effort Is the Prize

This, too: Sweating Your Way to Success
 
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Bob Callahan said:
This debate comes up every so often on this forum. Here's some new information:

"In other words, top performers in complex fields like medicine, math and chess become that way through repeated and focused practice that builds their skills until their performance seems almost super-human — rather than being born with highly exceptional skill.

...

Or to phrase it differently, it seems plausible that many more people than commonly believed (but perhaps not all people!) have sufficient innate skill to perform at world-class levels in complex fields with sufficient practice; the problem is that they do not undertake the necessary practice."

From: The Effort Is the Prize
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I would strongly disagree especially in Art and Music.
 
There's definitely a strong correlation with expertise in a given field and the amount of deliberate practice accumulated. Research on expertise has shown this for pretty much any established discipline, from arts to sports to intellectual activities. It's the "ten thousand hour rule" that you may have heard about. It takes at least ten thousand hours of deliberate practice to become a true expert in any reasonably established field.

Now, that itself doesn't imply that anyone could become a world-class performer or, indeed, a champion. And in fact, it is by definition that in sports it would be impossible anyhow, because there can be only so many champions. If all pool players went through years of high-quality deliberate practice, the average level of play would be much higher, but there would still be only handful at the very top.

But the fact is that very few of, say, pool players practice at all, let alone with discipline and guidance. The kind of practice that really improves your skills is difficult and very few are willing to put such effort into their hobby. So the question of how good one can become is best answered with something like: well, put in ten thousand hours of deliberate, high-quality practice and we'll see.

The question "natural talent or practice?", then, is kind of irrelevant, because you can't know whether you have "enough talent" if you haven't given your best shot at improving. Furthermore, just believing that "you don't have the talent" will make it less likely that you devote enough effort and time into your practice, because you're more likely to give up when you hit your first plateau. You'll think that the difficulties prove that you don't have the talent, even though it might be that you just haven't practiced enough (or well enough).
 
I'm a strong believer that it has way more to do with serious practice than in talent. Yes, there are anamolies like Ronnie O'Sullivan (although he practiced A LOT) but by and large it's more about what a person does to become great rather than any genetic "gift".

There's a great book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell that deals with this exact subject, theres another call Talent is Overated and both books claim the magic number of practice hours for pretty much any endeavor is 10,000 in order to become great. That's 10,000 hours of FOCUSED practice. I'll often hear people say they prctice pool 6-8 hours a day and they can't progress but when you see them "practicing" they don't look very focused at all.
 
That subject makes me wonder about something else.

We all know gifted people but do you guys think its impossible for some to reach a pro level in pool?

Example: Gifted Player A has so much natural talent that you can see the birth of a champion in a close future with dedicated practice

No Talent Player B would have to spend much more time than player A to become a champion but is it possible?

There is saying that goes like ''You have those who can and those who can't''

Personally I believe in the power of the mind that its possible to overcome obstacles but what about you teachers, have ever had students that you thought that no matter how hard they practice they would never go past a certain level (and a low one at that)?
 
JarnoV said:
Furthermore, just believing that "you don't have the talent" will make it less likely that you devote enough effort and time into your practice, because you're more likely to give up when you hit your first plateau. You'll think that the difficulties prove that you don't have the talent, even though it might be that you just haven't practiced enough (or well enough).
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From the first article:

"Stanford psychologist Carol Dweck suggests that what she calls “mindset” (in her 2006 book of that name) plays a crucial role in sustaining the necessary type of intense practice — and that the right mindset can be quite useful even if your goal is not to win the gold. Dweck puts forward two mindsets — a fixed mindset, which occurs when someone believes that personal qualities like intelligence are immutable, and a growth mindset, which occurs when someone believes that skills and characteristics can be cultivated through effort. In the fixed mindset, success is showing you’re talented; in the growth mindset, it’s developing yourself."
 
A powerful statement Neil! At the end of a disciplined practice regimen (which might be a few weeks or a few months of focused practice), you must "crossover" from the analytical (think) side of your brain, to the creative (do) side of your mind, and go out and test yourself under the pressure of competition. Either your process holds up under pressure, or it doesn't. If not...continue your disciplined practice (this is NOT practicing playing, btw) until you perform well under pressure in competition. Then it becomes a matter of accumulating enough competitive time on the table, to allow you to utilize all the secondary knowledge we acquire (from playing, watching video matches, reading, posting, etc.).

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Neil said:
A good instructor can take anyone willing to put in the time and effort, and make them great in their home. Get them out in the real world, and then you might need a psychoanalyst.
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Totally agreed that the mind plays a big part in pool. You have to be hungry enough to win. All of the good players must more than 10K hrs logged in practice to get to their level. I haven't seen anyone who only played for a few years and go on to win a US open tournament yet.

You can have 2 players with the same amount of time spent playing the game but how they spent their time playing is also how they are shaping their mind for the game. Player A may have a player a coach who teaches him/her play how to play the game and play in tournament to reach his pro level and win a championship. Player B may have no coach but spend the same amount of time gambling his whole career...have never won a championship. But player A will be spotted a 7 ball by Player B if they are matching up :). Mental toughness and knowing how to handle your mind is key to any champion...especially the one that don't play tournaments that goes around and robbing the champion of their money.


Regards,
Duc.
 
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This topic really boils down to the age old nature/nurture debate. It is clear that both are not only involved, but intertwined and interdependent. People are different and in some ways unique. The types of thoughts that go through one person's brain are likely very different than perhaps those of anyone else. Every second of deliberate practice one spends is constantly a medley between the event itself and the details thereof (*what* happens while practicing), and the *evaluation* of what happened by that specific individual, as well as their own physical involvement in the event and the observation of *that* too! For example, two players are practicing stop shots. Player A misses and makes various observations about how and why, how to coordinate his body and mind to correct the error, etc. Player B may have a totally different response: he may or may not have the ability to "think" with his body, a different awareness, a different ability to provide himself with feedback about what happened and how to correct it. Thus one of the many differences we as people exhibit is our ability to derive *value* from our practice time (or really from any shot we ever take, or from watching others, etc.)

Now, this ability is a new topic. Did it come from practice or our genetic code? The answer is YES. There is no such thing as a skill or any complex behavior that is completely attributable to nature or nurture. The two are inseparable. Great players have both a natural aptitude for doing what they do, and also have likely spent time putting that aptitude into situations where *value* is built in the desired skill. The aptitude generates interest, which generates careful observation, practice, etc. They go hand in hand. I'm sure you could grab two pro players and have a situation where one has more "natural talent" while the other put in tons of deliberate practice and they both end up playing about the same speed. However, it is damn near impossible to measure any of that.

Natural talent or practice? The answer is YES.

KMRUNOUT
 
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Neil said:
The mind is the hard part. Learning to think like a champion, some will never do. And, when you don't think like a winner, your performance will coincide with your thinking.
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Absolutely! But that's trainable, too. Gamble. Play in tournaments. Searching the web for "mental toughness", "winning psychology", and the like will turn up millions of links.

"1. A winner knows what it means to be a winner.

2. A winner must set high goals.

3. A winner is disciplined.

4. A winner has strong motivation."

From: Four Characteristics of a Winner

"It was found that the athletes were characterized by: (a) the ability to cope with and control anxiety; (b) confidence; (c) mental toughness/resiliency; (d) sport intelligence; (e) the ability to focus and block out distractions; (f) competitiveness; (g) a hard-work ethic; (h) the ability to set and achieve goals; (i) coachability; (j) high levels of dispositional hope; (k) optimism; and (l) adaptive perfectionism. "

From: Psychological Characteristics and Their Development in Olympic Champions

And, oddly enough, from the world of poker, what sets the winners and losers apart: The Psychology of Winning Poker Players
 
It's all very simple

Practice makes talented players better, and dedicated practice makes talented players champions.

And among those, some are born winners ... and others, not. We've all known some very good players who were ... yup, losers.

Don't know how to explain it, except maybe it's a coin flip, and it's nobody's fault but fate's.
 
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9BallPaul said:
Practice makes talented players better, and dedicated practice makes talented players champions.

And among those, some are born winners ... and others, not. We've all known some very good players who were ... yup, losers.

Don't know how to explain it, except maybe it's a coin flip, and it's nobody's fault but fate's.
Click to expand...

There's a great list that's too long to quote here:

33 Striking Differences Between Winners And Losers
 
I had this same conversation about reaching the "Champion" level with a friend of my Moms who is a psychologist. After explaining how I learned in our basement at 5 or 6 and it was my escape from a HUGE family, and now I feel I get frustrated at not "running 100 every day" or "beat the 12ball ghost" daily, She said this.

Maybe if I reach the level I am searching for.......the "SEARCH" would be over!?....huh?....I enjoy practicing soooo much that if I get to the level I "think" I should be....the search would be over. So, I find ways to sabotage, or avoid getting to the percieved end of the search.....or even worse, under rate my game to keep the search alive.

This was a pretty profound way to look at why I play the game. After thinking on it a while I realized I practice not to get to a champions level, but because I REALLY enjoy checking out and watching the balls roll around.

Now I can give myself a break and just enjoy the game.......and in turn play the best I ever have in 35 years.

G.
 
The answer to this seems obvious to me and it is true is so many areas of life. Most anyone can learn to play the piano, only a few make it to the concert stage. Those who do displayed talent from an early age and they practiced intensely for many years. It requires talent, the right personality configuration, and concentrated practice to make it to the top of any field.

It also requires an interpersonal style that is suited to the area of expertise; the sensitive artist is needed in some fields, the emotionally stable in sports, and the highly intelligent in some of the others.

Those who are the true contributors to their field of interest are life long students. They continue through the end of their respective careers to seek to improve their own ability and their field.

To be a true champion one does not have to have all of society's valued traits. For instance, true statesman are often not the most intelligent, they do however have the best abilities to bring people together and make great decisions.
 
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JoeW said:
The answer to this seems obvious to me and it is true is so many areas of life. Most anyone can learn to play the piano, only a few make it to the concert stage. Those who do displayed talent from an early age and they practiced intensely for many years. It requires talent, the right personality configuration, and concentrated practice to make it to the top of any field.

It also requires an interpersonal style that is suited to the area of expertise; the sensitive artist is needed in some fields, the emotionally stable in sports, and the highly intelligent in some of the others.

Those who are the true contributors to their field of interest are life long students. They continue through the end of their respective careers to seek to improve their own ability and their field.

To be a true champion one does not have to have all of society's valued traits. For instance, true statesman are often not the most intelligent, they do however have the best abilities to bring people together and make great decisions.
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Thats damn true Joe.....I sometimes scoff at my god given mechanical abilities....I'm a master plumber, fabricator, built race cars of every kind, and went to school for mechanical engineering.......that stuff is childs play to me. I never had to work at it....when I look at a machine it makes sense..... But what drives me most is putting a little ball into a pocket with a real sweet custom cue! :)....I have never been to an engineering forum...:grin:

Reminds me of the Matt Damon character in "Good Will Hunting"...he said how childishly easy the incredibly difficult math was to him....while the teachers were struggling to keep up with him.

G.
 
practice vs. talent

I have given this topic much thought. I started out as a kid who wanted to play in the NBA. I am 6'3 and when I was younger I weighed 215.
I had decent tools to start with. I began playing on the school grounds of Cleveland and went on to become a pretty good player and played one year in Europe. Through those years I was a very hard and dedicated worker. 6 plus hrs day practice....drills...weight lifting...running....plyometrics etc.
On the other hand I had friends who only played maybe 12 hrs a week...(none of the other stuff) who played nearly as well and went on to D1 scholarships. So when we talk about champions or elites on the global scale these guys or gals are gentic freaks. For instance Lebron James, Joe Montana, Tiger Woods, Ali etc. Not to mention sprinters.

I think alot of people have the potential to reach the house pro level
like in golf. Which is no small feat and gives you a shot against anyone in a short race or on a given day if you catch lightning in a bottle.
Most of us can identify athletic talent right away...speed, size, strength.
The hardest talents to identify are things like abstract reasoning...some people put pool puzzles together quickly ie. Efren and Cory.
The ability to identify geometric angles to amazing accuracy...1/2 ball hit 1/4 ball etc.
Other talents like eyes that are almost non dominant and superior depth perception.
And finally hunger...hunger for knowledge. Hunger to get better. A fear of wasting time doing anything unecessary.
Combine all of this and it still is probably not enought to become elite.
Then you have to be in the right place at the right time. Like Efren who grew up in the Mecca of pool and had the luxury of standing on milk crates to reach the table as a child. Or Shane who's whole family is into pool. Tiger Woods had a father who arrainged for the best teachers and exposed him to national level talent.
In summary, so many things have to come together to make a touring pro that if you can identify half of them you are a genius. The other half comes from other people and chance. But of course we would never tell this to our children. Some will be Champions!
 
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