NEED HELP on a rules question!!!

[pharaoh68]

I was playing a guy for money last night and the two of us were going back and forth trading games. We're playing a race to nine and its tied at 7.

So, here's where I need help.

He leaves himself straight in on the 9 with the 9 ball frozen to the rail. Now he's shooting at the corner so he has to go past the side pocket. If he hits it wrong, he'll hit the 'tit' or the point on the pocket and the cueball will take off into the middle of the table. To ensure that he doesn't do this, he walks over to the pocket, takes the butt end of his cue and presses up against the 'tit' and pushes it in to sort of clear the path and ensure he won't hit it. Then, he races back to the cueball and shoots.

My question is... is this legal?? I mean, its not like we were playing for $1,000 or anything but I would think that tampering with table equipment during play is against the rules. He claimed it wasn't and since no one knew for sure and we had no rule book on hand, he got away with it.

Anyone know the rules on this? I'd really appreciate it.

 

[Moronix]

Well lets see, theres Texas Express, Pro Express, BCA, UPA, etc. etc. Which set of rules did you agree to play by before you started?
One of the reasons I don't gamble is because this kind of crap comes up all the time. I have other reasons like most pool players don't have any money anyway and I don't need what little they do have. I also don't see any sense in giving them any of my money so what's the point? I'm betting you can't find any rule against what happened in any rule book.
Look what happened at the IPT the other day. They are playing for 3 million in prize funds and Danny Harriman got up on the table on all fours to make a shot against Archer. Seems they left out the little part about one foot on the floor when the made the IPT rules. Just accept it as a lesson learned.

 

[Chris]

I was playing a guy for money last night and the two of us were going back and forth trading games. We're playing a race to nine and its tied at 7.

So, here's where I need help.

He leaves himself straight in on the 9 with the 9 ball frozen to the rail. Now he's shooting at the corner so he has to go past the side pocket. If he hits it wrong, he'll hit the 'tit' or the point on the pocket and the cueball will take off into the middle of the table. To ensure that he doesn't do this, he walks over to the pocket, takes the butt end of his cue and presses up against the 'tit' and pushes it in to sort of clear the path and ensure he won't hit it. Then, he races back to the cueball and shoots.

My question is... is this legal?? I mean, its not like we were playing for $1,000 or anything but I would think that tampering with table equipment during play is against the rules. He claimed it wasn't and since no one knew for sure and we had no rule book on hand, he got away with it.

Anyone know the rules on this? I'd really appreciate it.

From WPA/BCA rules (1.3 Use of Equipment):

Players may not use equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which the items were intended.

If you were playing by BCA rules, it would appear that he did violate them.

 

[GADawg]

I was playing a guy for money last night and the two of us were going back and forth trading games. We're playing a race to nine and its tied at 7.

So, here's where I need help.

He leaves himself straight in on the 9 with the 9 ball frozen to the rail. Now he's shooting at the corner so he has to go past the side pocket. If he hits it wrong, he'll hit the 'tit' or the point on the pocket and the cueball will take off into the middle of the table. To ensure that he doesn't do this, he walks over to the pocket, takes the butt end of his cue and presses up against the 'tit' and pushes it in to sort of clear the path and ensure he won't hit it. Then, he races back to the cueball and shoots.

My question is... is this legal?? I mean, its not like we were playing for $1,000 or anything but I would think that tampering with table equipment during play is against the rules. He claimed it wasn't and since no one knew for sure and we had no rule book on hand, he got away with it.

Anyone know the rules on this? I'd really appreciate it.

From the World Standrdized General Fules

1.3 USE OF EQUIPMENT
Players may not use equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which the items were intended (refer to rules 3.42 and 3.43). For example, powder containers, chalk cubes, etc., may not be used to prop up a mechanical bridge (or natural hand bridge); no more than two mechanical bridges may be used at one time, nor may they be used to support anything other than the cue shaft. Extra or out-of-play balls may not be used by players to check clearance or for any other reason (except to lag for break); the triangle may be employed to ascertain whether a ball is in the rack when a match is unofficiated and the table has not been pencil marked around the triangle area. (Also see Rule 2.3)

I think that would disqualify using the cue stick as he did.

Also, I think this woud fall under unsportsmanlike conduct even if he used his hand to do it.

Bob Jewett - Would be interested in your take on this.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

I'd not be happy that he did that, but I'd also question the practicality. The bumper is rubber and I don't see how that would help him.


HTH

Dave

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

I'd not be happy that he did that, but I'd also question the practicality. The bumper is rubber and I don't see how that would help him.
HTH
Dave

I've seen this a thousand times but, it is usually accomplished by the player using his hand to depress the cushion on the side pocket. I have NEVER seen it called as a foul and as a TD, I wouldn't call it as a foul either. Now, using the butt end of his cue is new to me and requires further thought..... imo

Doug

 

[Snapshot9]

I would think

that this would be covered in general in one of those 'catch-all' rules that weren't covered specifically. How is this much different than someone moving a blocking ball because it impedes the path to the pocket? .... lol
If the rubber is not fastened properly to begin with, why are you even playing on that table? Tell him to play shape on the other side next time ... lol

Yes, I consider it a foul, especially with using his cue to do it. And something else I would like to mention along these lines, are the people that break down a Break/jump stick for a jump and put the bottom handle sticking out of a pocket... to me, that is a no-no, just like setting drink in the pocket would be. Although I have never had it happen, what if a ball ended up in that pocket where the cue handle was? Could cause for many problems, depending on whether it stayed in or not? I always leave mine on the table where my stuff is.

 

[!Smorgass Bored]

that this would be covered in general in one of those 'catch-all' rules that weren't covered specifically.
If the rubber is not fastened properly to begin with, why are you even playing on that table? Tell him to play shape on the other side next time ... lol

Yes, I consider it a foul, especially with using his cue to do it. And something else I would like to mention along these lines, are the people that break down a Break/jump stick for a jump and put the bottom handle sticking out of a pocket... to me, that is a no-no, just like setting drink in the pocket would be. Although I have never had it happen, what if a ball ended up in that pocket where the cue handle was? Could cause for many problems, depending on whether it stayed in or not? I always leave mine on the table where my stuff is.

The rubber IS fastened down, but depressing the point of the side pocket WILL allow a ball to pass. Most players that depress the side pocket points are old time road players and gamblers (it's kind of like placing spotted balls with the number facing UP in one-pocket, giving your opponent no reference point to aim at)...
Placing part of your jump cue in the/a pocket is also not a foul.

Doug

 

[Andrew Manning]

I don't think it's a foul any more than picking up a piece of lint off the cloth would be a foul. If the rail on the far side of the pocket were sticking out and obstructing the shot, then that's just like a piece of lint or chalk on the cloth in the path of a shot; i.e. there's something obstructing the shot that isn't supposed to be there. On a perfect table, there would be no need to do this, and therefore IF compressing the rail beforehand were to have any affect, the affect would be "correcting" the table conditions, not "tampering with" them.

However, I think it's entirely moot because unless the rail or cushion is attached improperly or the rubber is totally worn out, the rail will be in exactly the same place it originally was by the time he takes the shot, and thus he didn't affect the shot at all.

Just my 2 cents.

-Andrew

 

[pharaoh68]

I don't think it's a foul any more than picking up a piece of lint off the cloth would be a foul. If the rail on the far side of the pocket were sticking out and obstructing the shot, then that's just like a piece of lint or chalk on the cloth in the path of a shot; i.e. there's something obstructing the shot that isn't supposed to be there. On a perfect table, there would be no need to do this, and therefore IF compressing the rail beforehand were to have any affect, the affect would be "correcting" the table conditions, not "tampering with" them.

However, I think it's entirely moot because unless the rail or cushion is attached improperly or the rubber is totally worn out, the rail will be in exactly the same place it originally was by the time he takes the shot, and thus he didn't affect the shot at all.

Just my 2 cents.

-Andrew

I would tend to disagree and here is my logic.
First, let me say that the railis fastened properly. But when a ball is frozen to or even a hair off the side rail and it is not struck absoltuely perfectly, it will not roll on that stright line toward the pocket. When this happens, it can hit the point and bounce off. Its a common occurence.

However, I think its different than a piece of lint or dirt on the table as the lint or dirt is NOT supposed to be there. It is not part of the playing equipment, thus, it can and should be removed. But altering the state of the table to give you an advantage I would think is a foul. As well, tampering or moving the playing equipment I would also see as a foul.

It would be the same as if my opponent were shooting the 1 ball and I decided to park the 2 ball directly in its path. By tampering with the equipment, that would be a foul.

 

[cueman]

I have never done this and even though it is a little unorthodox, I don't think it is a foul, as mentioned earlier it is like removing lint from the table. I would not call that on someone because I know it is the poor condition of the table that is impeding his cue ball path. It is just part of having to play on poorly installed equipment. Maybe it is a foul, but should it be called?? Pressing it with his stick instead of his finger would be the part that might bring it into the category of foul. As far as unsportsman like conduct I am not sure which one should have that called on them, the rail presser or the one calling it a foul.

 

[Andrew Manning]

First, let me say that the rail is fastened properly.
...
I think it's different than a piece of lint or dirt on the table as the lint or dirt is NOT supposed to be there.

So it sounds like you're saying that the rails on the far side of the side pocket is SUPPOSED to be in the way of the shot? The only way for the ball to hit the far pointl after the side pocket is if the table's not level or if the rails on either side of the pocket are not flush. Now, if it's that the slate rolls toward the rail you're shooting along, then you're right, this can happen on perfect rails. Otherwise it means the rail is in the wrong place, and is thus NOT supposed to be there, just like lint or dirt. I don't think your opponent can be blamed for trying to rectify the deficiency in the table.

-Andrew

 

[Bob Jewett]

... . I don't think your opponent can be blamed for trying to rectify the deficiency in the table....

OK, let's look at some more extreme cases.

I'm about to shoot a hard draw shot close to the long rail. That corner pocket has been spitting balls out on hard shots all night for my opponent. I have silently noticed that the cloth inside the pocket is dirty and the increased friction makes the pocket tighter, and I've managed to avoid such shots until now. Before I shoot the shot I get out a bottle of QuickClean and work on the pocket for a few minutes. The ball slides in like it is on ice.

I'm about to shoot the OP's shot -- along the long rail past the side pocket. I check the rails for the dread "protruding tit" and find none, but the far rail section is angled backwards! A ball sent along the upper rail section has no way to go into the pocket. I start delivering kicks -- like the celebrated martial arts wizard, Mike Seagal -- to the offending rail by the pocket and eventually smash it into reasonable alignment.

I think that minor cleaning, like picking up lint and chalk, and even brushing the table (if an idiot uses talc) is OK, but the players should accept the conditions at the start of the match and should not modify the conditions without their opponent's permission. If the match is refereed, the problem should be brought to the attention of the ref, and he should arrange to fix it (if possible).

 

[Snapshot9]

Good Answer ...

OK, let's look at some more extreme cases.

I'm about to shoot a hard draw shot close to the long rail. That corner pocket has been spitting balls out on hard shots all night for my opponent. I have silently noticed that the cloth inside the pocket is dirty and the increased friction makes the pocket tighter, and I've managed to avoid such shots until now. Before I shoot the shot I get out a bottle of QuickClean and work on the pocket for a few minutes. The ball slides in like it is on ice.

I'm about to shoot the OP's shot -- along the long rail past the side pocket. I check the rails for the dread "protruding tit" and find none, but the far rail section is angled backwards! A ball sent along the upper rail section has no way to go into the pocket. I start delivering kicks -- like the celebrated martial arts wizard, Mike Seagal -- to the offending rail by the pocket and eventually smash it into reasonable alignment.

I think that minor cleaning, like picking up lint and chalk, and even brushing the table (if an idiot uses talc) is OK, but the players should accept the conditions at the start of the match and should not modify the conditions without their opponent's permission. If the match is refereed, the problem should be brought to the attention of the ref, and he should arrange to fix it (if possible).

Bob .... Because there is a difference between 'correcting' something, or just trying to gain an advantage by fooling with the equipment.

 

[Cuebacca]

I don't think it's a foul any more than picking up a piece of lint off the cloth would be a foul. If the rail on the far side of the pocket were sticking out and obstructing the shot, then that's just like a piece of lint or chalk on the cloth in the path of a shot; i.e. there's something obstructing the shot that isn't supposed to be there. On a perfect table, there would be no need to do this, and therefore IF compressing the rail beforehand were to have any affect, the affect would be "correcting" the table conditions, not "tampering with" them.

However, I think it's entirely moot because unless the rail or cushion is attached improperly or the rubber is totally worn out, the rail will be in exactly the same place it originally was by the time he takes the shot, and thus he didn't affect the shot at all.

Just my 2 cents.

-Andrew

I agree with this logic. It shouldn't be a foul, IMO. If a screw fell out of the table or light onto the playing surface, you'd be allowed to move it out of the way, even though its part of the equipment. If the spot started peeling up, I would assume that you'd be allowed to smooth it out.

The rubber probably will spring back to its original position, but smoothing out the point might still help if the cloth is a little frayed out or if the fold is protruding slightly.

For what its worth, I have an Accu-Stats video where Keith McCready does this same thing using his hand, and no one objectioned. IIRC, there was not even any question or mention that it might be a foul. I can't remember which match this was, but if anyone is interested, let me know and I'll check when I get home.

 

[Cuebacca]

[...]

I think that minor cleaning, like picking up lint and chalk, and even brushing the table (if an idiot uses talc) is OK, but the players should accept the conditions at the start of the match and should not modify the conditions without their opponent's permission. If the match is refereed, the problem should be brought to the attention of the ref, and he should arrange to fix it (if possible).

That's a good answer. I feel that the OP's opponent should be allowed to do what he did, but it would have been best to ask first to make sure there were no objections.

 

[Andrew Manning]

OK, let's look at some more extreme cases.

I'm about to shoot a hard draw shot close to the long rail. That corner pocket has been spitting balls out on hard shots all night for my opponent. I have silently noticed that the cloth inside the pocket is dirty and the increased friction makes the pocket tighter, and I've managed to avoid such shots until now. Before I shoot the shot I get out a bottle of QuickClean and work on the pocket for a few minutes. The ball slides in like it is on ice.

I'm about to shoot the OP's shot -- along the long rail past the side pocket. I check the rails for the dread "protruding tit" and find none, but the far rail section is angled backwards! A ball sent along the upper rail section has no way to go into the pocket. I start delivering kicks -- like the celebrated martial arts wizard, Mike Seagal -- to the offending rail by the pocket and eventually smash it into reasonable alignment.

I think that minor cleaning, like picking up lint and chalk, and even brushing the table (if an idiot uses talc) is OK, but the players should accept the conditions at the start of the match and should not modify the conditions without their opponent's permission. If the match is refereed, the problem should be brought to the attention of the ref, and he should arrange to fix it (if possible).

As usual, you make good points, Bob. If the "protruding tit" is really in the way when shooting down the rail across the pocket, then maybe you should have chosen another table, rather than trying to "fix" it before such a shot. And getting your opponent's permission is always a safe way to go when trying to decide whether something's allowable.

At any rate, if an opponent asked me if they could press on the rail before taking the shot, I'd allow it.

-Andrew

 

[randyg]

Regardless of what we think, the person violated no rules. No Foul.

It is the shooters responsibility to make sure the equipment is proper. Case in point.

What would happen if a plastic pocket had turned sideways? It's my job to correct the pocket or suffer.....randyg

 

[Chris]

Regardless of what we think, the person violated no rules. No Foul.

The person clearly violated WPA rule 1.3. If that rule is not important, it should be amended or removed. Otherwise, it should be recognized and enforced.

As far as I am aware, cues are not intended to be used for adjusting table rails. The foul may have been trivial, but it was a foul nonetheless, at least until the rule is changed.

 

[Nostroke]

To me it should be a foul wheter he used the stick or not-What if he removed the whole rail with a chisel? You cant or shouldnt be able to 'alter' the equipment during play. In golf you can move "loose impedimnets' which would be like lint etc but virtually nothing else.