Need help on "roll" definition on a new cue!!

Johnfan

Johnfan

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Hi everyone. I need your opinion on a taper roll on an expensive cue. Your opinion is appreciated.

If you purchased an expensive cue ($3,000 an up), at what point does a taper roll becomes unacceptable??? I have lots of cues in my collection that are over 3K and some....or half....have taper roll when you roll the cue with the shaft on. I hope I have the term correct. This is the slight wobble (or up and down movement) that you see towards the middle of the shaft when you lay it down on the pool table. You can see that during the rolling of the cue, the shaft will go high and low but you can see the tip and ferrule stays on the table. At the high point, much more light can be seen (about two business card thick) for some cue. My SW does it. My JossWest does it.

At what point does this becomes a true wobble shaft? At what point when this becomes unacceptable to a collector??

This is the case with my current purchase. During the roll, the taper roll brings the joint off the table where you can see light at certain point of roll under the joint? Will this problem take away from the orig value of the cue?? Is this even a problem or am I just being too picky?? (Dealers opinion are welcome ^^)

Thank you all very much for your time and opinion as I am trying to more about pool cue collecting :)

Your opinion will be appreciated.
 
I'm not an expert.

AFAIC, if any of the ends (Ferrule or Joint) of the shaft or (Joint or Buttcap) of the butt lifts, then it's not taper roll, it's called warpage and it definitely lowers the value of the cue.

If it rolls fine apart and when put together then lifts at single point (Ferrule or Joint or Buttcap), there is definitely a problem with the cue.
 
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A "taper roll" would not bring the joint of the cue off the table. A "taper roll" is something attributable to a little inconsistency in sanding, etc which leads to a slight amount of light showing through when you roll the shaft. It will not cause the joint to lift or the tip to come off the surface of the table...that is much more than a "taper roll", IMO.

Does the shaft have a roll when unassembled? Is the butt straight? When I have seen what you are describing, most of the time, it has been a "facing" issue or a warp in the butt/handle.
Joe
 
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If it affects play, then it's too much. If you can't notice it when you're shooting then what does it matter when you roll it on the table.
 
This is the case with my current purchase. During the roll, the taper roll brings the joint off the table where you can see light at certain point of roll under the joint? Will this problem take away from the orig value of the cue?? Is this even a problem or am I just being too picky?? (Dealers opinion are welcome ^^)





That sounds like a warped butt !
Taper roll is between the joint of the shaft and the ferrule . When you roll the shaft seperatly there will be up and down movement in the middle of the shaft . Anything more that .050" effects the value .
If your rolling and assembled cue and the joint is lifting off the table That's an issue !
Try rolling the butt by it's self and see if it's not warped .
Bill
 
The entire butt and the joint MUST STAY perfectly flat/even, along with the ferrule! Any minor up/down/lifting/light showing in the shaft is acceptable "taper roll".

However, should the ferrule or joint move up/down, then it's not usually considered taper roll.

Taper Roll = Fine

More than Taper Roll = Not Good.

-von
 
Thank you all. For one, this cue was purchased for a collection and will not be shot with so if anything will lower the value of the cue will matter.

If I roll the the butt by itself, it does not have a roll. It does not come off the table at the joint. If connected with the shaft, the joint will come off the table during certain part of the rolling.

And again, I am not talking the joint lifting a lot off the table. Just so slightly where you can see light then no light during the roll with the shaft on. Will this be acceptable to a cue collector? With just the shaft rolling by itself, the shaft only have the "standard" taper roll.

This is a very expensive cue so that is why I want all you cue collector to chime in. If this was a 2K cue, I don't think I would be this picky.

If you guys have any more thoughts, I do want to hear it.

Thanks in advance!!!
 
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have it checked out to make sure it is flat-faced precisely enough or if dirt or something is in betweenthe surfaces of shaft bottom and butt top.
 
If the tip, the joint, and the buttcap, all stay on the table, and there is not OVER about an eighth of an inch movement any place else, I consider it quite reasonable for an old cue. I have 20 +, 60's through 80's cues that fit that description.

After all, wood is not a perfectly stable material. "it moves"

If it is a newer 1-5 year old cue and made properly, This would be a lot! of warp in my opinion.(Especially on a high end cue!)


If any of the forementioned areas are leaving the cloth, its a waped cue!

If it did this from the beginning it would not have left a good shop, There for, not at all likely to be a mis-faced joint.

AND FOR THE LOVE OF PETE!!! .... DONT GET ME STARTED ON "TAPER ROLL" what ever the h*ll THAT is?

A bit of varience in the wrap, or a minute itty bit of out of out of roundness FROM SANDING A FEW THOUSANDS OF AN INCH FROM THE FINISH, will at most be nearly unperceivable! If its that bad that you are concerned, you should REALY be concened. becase that would be tough to do on a lathe, if you were trying!

Roll each peice slowly on aflat surface, and watch carefully, you will see whats going on with you'r particular cue.
 
Generally, when the shaft & handle roll straight when apart but will lift at the joint when together, it's an indication that the the shaft & handle need to be refaced at the joint. It's no biggie. Take it to a reputable cue maker and in 5 minutes you'll believe this guy can work miracles. If a shaft has a slight wobble when rolled by itself, this is not a biggie either. Shafts can move on a daily basis and can be easily straightened by hand by someone who knows what they're doing. Warped handles are a different story. Most times it's due to bad construction methods but even then there's a chance that it can be improved.
No one has a perfect stroke so a slight wobble shouldn't be looked upon as a catastrophe.
 
Warped Shafts

Right on JAYMAN. If a shaft is warped its warped!!!!!!!!! Its a shame that you get people to argue on this.Put the shafts on a machine and watch them wabble when they spin. AMEN finished. Put the shafts on a machine and watch them spin. Said it again,watch them spin.. See if dennis searings shafts have tapper roll, give me a break.........Know it all.....
 
The first thing you need to know is, is the butt warped, the shaft warped, or a bad installation of the joint. If the joint isn't installed properly, than it is unacceptable. If the butt is warped a little, there wouldn't be a big problem, because the butt has a protection layer, so it wouldn't warped anymore. If the shaft is warped, it just depend how much. If I read your first post and it's the shaft, than it's quite acceptable. It also wouldn't effect your playing.

You should also know that a cue is made from wood. Wood always warped. It doesn't matter how you threat it, it always warped. The only question is, how much will or is it warping.

Like others said. If the tip or buttcap is moving from the table, than it's unacceptable. Try to roll the cue, and pushing a few inch above the buttcap. Give it some pressure, and you will see if the tip is comming out of the table.
 
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Thank you Wesley for the reply. The butt rolls flat by itself. The shaft rolls normal with only taper roll in the middle of the shaft. But when put together, one can see light throught the bottom of the joint during the slow rolling procedure across the pool table.

I guess I really need to send the cue back to the builder and let him take a look at it.
 
butt

i was told by a very reputable cue make that you really can't tell much by rolling then apart on the table. such like a southwest that has a 3 stage taper on the butt.(don't claim to be an exspert so holster the hammers). he said the best way to get an idea is to assemble the cue and roll it across both rails of a table(sue on top), and watch the center of the cue or the whole thing for up and down. that way you are on the ver tip of both ends and the wrap or butt taper will not come into play. try it. a second cue maker told me the same thing.jmato(just mine and their opinion):)
 
Johnfan said:
Thank you Wesley for the reply. The butt rolls flat by itself. The shaft rolls normal with only taper roll in the middle of the shaft. But when put together, one can see light throught the bottom of the joint during the slow rolling procedure across the pool table.

I guess I really need to send the cue back to the builder and let him take a look at it.
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Hmmm, a bad joint. There is also a trick that you can try, but it isn't really reliable. You can put one of your other shafts on the butt, and see what the result is. Just keep in mind that the original shaft always fit better. If all the other shafts gives the same result, I think you can really say the joint isn't good. Just try and see...
 
"The first thing you need to know is, is the butt warped, the shaft warped, or a bad installation of the joint. If the joint isn't installed properly, than it is unacceptable. If the butt is warped a little, there wouldn't be a big problem, because the butt has a protection layer, so it wouldn't warped anymore. If the shaft is warped, it just depend how much. If I read your first post and it's the shaft, than it's quite acceptable. It also wouldn't effect your playing."

I wouldn't say that "if the butt is warped a little, there wouldn't be a big problem". I am by no means a collector or an expert but I know about myself that if I wanted to buy a 2-3-4k dollar cue I wouldn't stand even the thought of a warped butt... I mean if I ever bought a high-end cue I wouldn't care that much for a shaft because (in my opinion and please correct me if I'm wrong) the greatest value is in the butt. I know that it is the shaft that has the greatest effect on how each cue play but most of the work was put into the butt, so are the valuable inlays (and maybe splicing techniques) therefore when you buy a 4k dollar cue I think at least 3.7k is in the butt.
What is more is that you cannot get a new, straight butt. But you do can get a new shaft - of course only if the maker of the cue is still alive and is at work. But you won't get the same butt made ever (or at least I think you wouldn't place another 4k order and wait several years again just in order to get the same but straight cue). But I would order 1 or two brand new shafts and pay 400 bucks if that is the price.

Just my .02...
 
poohkiller said:
I wouldn't say that "if the butt is warped a little, there wouldn't be a big problem". I am by no means a collector or an expert but I know about myself that if I wanted to buy a 2-3-4k dollar cue I wouldn't stand even the thought of a warped butt... I mean if I ever bought a high-end cue I wouldn't care that much for a shaft because (in my opinion and please correct me if I'm wrong) the greatest value is in the butt. I know that it is the shaft that has the greatest effect on how each cue play but most of the work was put into the butt, so are the valuable inlays (and maybe splicing techniques) therefore when you buy a 4k dollar cue I think at least 3.7k is in the butt.
What is more is that you cannot get a new, straight butt. But you do can get a new shaft - of course only if the maker of the cue is still alive and is at work. But you won't get the same butt made ever (or at least I think you wouldn't place another 4k order and wait several years again just in order to get the same but straight cue). But I would order 1 or two brand new shafts and pay 400 bucks if that is the price.

Just my .02...
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I agree with some points, but it's definitaly wrong to say the greatest value is in the butt. Ofcourse the butt contains a high value, like you mention, but more important is the original cue. For a collector, a cue without the original shaft will dramatically lost his value. Ofcourse the best is a no warped cue, but that's almost impossible. Like you mention a little warped butt will lost some value, but that also count for the other parts. I didn't make myself really clear, but I just want to say, when a shaft is starting to warped, the owner need to be more carefull not getting it warped even more. If you don't treat it right, it will get worser. A butt will warped lesser.
 
Roll

Johnfan said:
Thank you Wesley for the reply. The butt rolls flat by itself. The shaft rolls normal with only taper roll in the middle of the shaft. But when put together, one can see light throught the bottom of the joint during the slow rolling procedure across the pool table.

I guess I really need to send the cue back to the builder and let him take a look at it.
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If it's a new cue i'd definately send it back and describe exactly what is going on with the cue to the cue maker. The joint could have a speck or spot of something foreign on the butt or the shaft joint face that you don't notice until the cue is put together. The builder can double check the butt and joint face to be sure everything is as it should be (perfectly square). A slight roll in the shaft where the tip stays flat is OK, but I do mean SLIGHT! I get a sick feeling when I get a new cue and I roll the shafts and they don't roll true. It may not affect the play, but it bothers me mentally thinking "I wonder if I missed that shot because the shaft doesn't roll perfectly true?". I would not accept a cue if when I rolled it the joint move off the table (somethings not right and you need to address it especially on a high dollar cue).
 
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