I am looking for input on designing a hardwood pooltabe. Like double center beam construction. etc..... Please post and give reason.
Need Help with building a table.
- Thread starter PoolTable911
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PoolTable911 said:I am looking for input on designing a hardwood pooltabe. Like double center beam construction. etc..... Please post and give reason.
Pat, when you say a hardwood pool table, are you thinking about a modern style table with a leg and stretcher with a separate frame, or a traditional furniture style table, like an antique reproduction table with a consolidated frame and leg? The reason I'm asking is, my ideas for what I'd like to see Incorporated into the construction of each of them would be somewhat different. For example If you are building this table for both home and commercial use the design and materials would be different than a table primarily built for commercial applications.
That being said, the following items are things I believe should be Incorporated into any QUALITY billiard table.
1 30 mm or thicker slate bed.
2 Artemis or Kleber quality cushions.
3 Integrated slate leveling system. ( mechanical levelers )
4 Adjustable feet.
5 Massive frame of properly engineered materials. (steel I beams)
6 Stainless steel hardware though out.
7 Bolt through slate attachment rather than screws.
8 Top rails finished in Diamond wood, or finished with ceramic clear coat.
9 Drop pockets that hold at least 10 balls. ( and don't stain balls )
10 A 3 hour installation time once all equipment is on site.
I wish you all the luck in the world with getting this great project off the ground!
Jay
PS Just left Dave from Boston at the pool room, he loves the 3 cushion tables I installed.
ChrisShanklin
Banned
Pat can you design it from the ground up?
ChrisShanklin
Banned
What Pat is talking about is a good furniture table. No it won't have diamond wood or tight pockets. It will be an inexpensive furniture style table. Looking for ideas for design on outside and construction design.
xianmacx said:
The Diamond Pro Am Definitely comes the closest. Styling for the home table market leaves room for innovation and improvement IMO. Square leg tables are far less preferred by my home table buyers, as compared to a Queen Ann or round leg tables.
I know Diamond also produces a line of home style tables but I've never worked on any or even seen any in person ( only pictures ) and therefore can't comment or compare their construction or styling to ideas I would be suggesting to Pat.
Obviously Diamond Billiards produces one of the finest tables on the planet and any quality pool table is going to share many of there excellent traits. If you look at what Glen "RKC" brought to the improvement of the traditional bar-box with the development of the Smart table ( By FAR the best playing and built coin-op ever! ) you realize what a tremendous resource the combined experience of this industries mechanics are!!!
As far as sounding like, or looking like something that already exists in the market you are totally correct. Everything I suggested are things I've seen on other tables but never all on the same table.
For the record I'm not an engineer, industrial designer or manufacturer of any product. I'm just a billiard mechanic since 1970 trying to learn and share through this forum.
Jay
ChrisShanklin
Banned
To be honest I don't think we are looking to change the face of the furniture table market. Just looking to bring tables in that are built well, and engineered in such a way that make that a joy to install and sell.
ChrisShanklin said:
Wow is that a ruff market! How do you compete with the Big Boy's and the imports and still have reasonable quality.
With the new directive in mind, how about graphic appliqu? similar to the ones they use on cars to advertise beer and soda. It' a printed Mylar material that can be applied like contact paper. The best thing is that they are available in any color or design, pre cut to the dimensions of your table.
This would allow complete customization of a table beyond just the cloth logo and the finish colors.
As far as construction of the cabinet, rails and legs, sounds like a real balancing act between cost and quality.
Good Luck
Jay
ChrisShanklin
Banned
It will be an import table, but that is neither here nor there. It being an import is irrelevant, we want a great quality table and we will be building it from the ground up. You can definitely compete with the big boys (that aint hard!) and have better quality than the low end imports. These tables will be built well made of solid wood, I would personally like to see oversized and durable rails like Connelly. Definitely don't want the leg bolt style of a brunswick.A-1 billiards said:
A-1 billiards said:
Hi Jay,
How is Dave from Boston doing? He is definately a character. Tell him I said hello. The reason for my post is to come up with ideas to build a good quality table at an affordable price. I appreciate your posts. Welcome to the board.
PoolTable911 said:
Dave is certainly a character!!! I'll past on your greetings. As far as your new project, I have some Ideas that may be applicable. just don't have time right now. Talk with you tonight.
Jay
If you're looking to get into the home table market and you are going to be importing the tables I'd have a few recomendations. I sell Brunswick and Olhausen tables and we've even dabbled in a few of the imports without much luck. If thats the market you're after make sure the finish quality is top notch. We've put Chinese tables next to Olhausens and Brunswicks and its like putting a Chevette between a BMW and a Benz. Even though Brunswick tables come from Brazil or Asia (Contender series) they still make a nice looking table. What we've seen from ALL of the imports is cheap, shotty finish work. Customers want to get a good looking table regardless of how well its made which is one of the reasons Connelly doesn't sell more. Back when we had them with Olhausen it was night and day difference. You can build a table thats as solid as a brick sh!t house but if it looks like a brick sh!t house, nobody will buy it.
As far as construction is concerned, focus on whats actually going to do something for the table. Center beams really don't add much rigidity to the frame. Olhausen proved this years ago. Expand the contact area between the slate and the frame. Most tables we've seen have the slate resting on about a 2 inch frame cross member. Expand that surface area. It allows the weight to be spread out more. Center slate screw where the slate sections go together is another great way of adding rigidity and preventing seams from popping. You can't design a table thinking "How can I make the table solid?". The most solid and rigid part of the table is the SLATE! Wood flexes, warps, expands, shrinks etc, slate is 10,000 year old rock, it doesn't do anything. You need to think logically about how do support the slate and use it to create the stability and rigidity for the table.
Just my thoughts
Dave
As far as construction is concerned, focus on whats actually going to do something for the table. Center beams really don't add much rigidity to the frame. Olhausen proved this years ago. Expand the contact area between the slate and the frame. Most tables we've seen have the slate resting on about a 2 inch frame cross member. Expand that surface area. It allows the weight to be spread out more. Center slate screw where the slate sections go together is another great way of adding rigidity and preventing seams from popping. You can't design a table thinking "How can I make the table solid?". The most solid and rigid part of the table is the SLATE! Wood flexes, warps, expands, shrinks etc, slate is 10,000 year old rock, it doesn't do anything. You need to think logically about how do support the slate and use it to create the stability and rigidity for the table.
Just my thoughts
Dave
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DiamondDave said:
Thanks for the input!
ChrisShanklin
Banned
DiamondDave said:
You make a lot of good points. But saying that anything from the Contender series is good is not true. Contender series tables are horrible, it's upsetting to lose sales to Brunswick dealers selling shorewoods or allentons, or any of the other very cheap looking Brunswick tables.
Having come from a large Brunswick dealer several things come to mind.
First, the largest market share of table sales is to the average recreational
player who may play only a small amount of time each year. If we had to rely on die hard pool players, i would certainly be out of business. MARKET TO THE HOMEOWNER WITH KIDS FIRST then serious players.
Secondly, this homeowner normally is very uneducated when it comes time to purchase a table. He is not serious about it so why should he waste his time trying to. So, what does he do? He purchases a name that he has heard of! Never mind it was probably at the bowling alley, it is still
a name he is vaguely familiar with. That is VERY tough to compete with.
Name recognition is EVERYTHING when it comes to any product. How many of you guys think Olhausen makes a GREAT table. Probably not many of us but do a survey on the general public and you will get a different response. I have always believed the greatest marketing campaign came from these guys. These are opinions based on my experiences.
First, the largest market share of table sales is to the average recreational
player who may play only a small amount of time each year. If we had to rely on die hard pool players, i would certainly be out of business. MARKET TO THE HOMEOWNER WITH KIDS FIRST then serious players.
Secondly, this homeowner normally is very uneducated when it comes time to purchase a table. He is not serious about it so why should he waste his time trying to. So, what does he do? He purchases a name that he has heard of! Never mind it was probably at the bowling alley, it is still
a name he is vaguely familiar with. That is VERY tough to compete with.
Name recognition is EVERYTHING when it comes to any product. How many of you guys think Olhausen makes a GREAT table. Probably not many of us but do a survey on the general public and you will get a different response. I have always believed the greatest marketing campaign came from these guys. These are opinions based on my experiences.
OTLB
Banned
Here is what I think is a great design, its my avatar, I made 5 of these OTLB Xboxes with custom 1.25 dowled slate from Italy. A man from Boston came in one day and bought all 5, had a white patch. Its a Supermodified GC IV in Mah and Chrome. Plus laser trim on sides and brushed aluminum under the arch. Easy to make bottoms and customize Gold Crowns. In Person the table was awesome and a rock to play on and in my poolroom on Main St.
With the abundance of Gold Crowns hitting the market you really already have a great table, it just needs to be jazed up. Buy those cheap and flip em. As Scruffy said, Brunswick carries weight across the board.
I think we could all agree that even a crappy table can be made to play ok, at least I have never left one that wasn't.
With the abundance of Gold Crowns hitting the market you really already have a great table, it just needs to be jazed up. Buy those cheap and flip em. As Scruffy said, Brunswick carries weight across the board.
I think we could all agree that even a crappy table can be made to play ok, at least I have never left one that wasn't.
ChrisShanklin said:
Whats wrong with the Contender Series? They're made the same as the Brunswick Series except they're made in "Asia," century cushions instead of superspeed and they're poplar instead of Mahogany. I sold Shorewoods and Allentons by the truck load and have tons of happy customers. You can't fault the customers for buying a nice looking, well made table from an established, well known table manufacturer can you?
All we sell out of the Contender series is the Shorewood, Tremont (now instead of the Shorewood), Allenton, Danbury, Bayfield and every-so-often a Black Wolf. You wanna trash the Geneva, Bristol etc, be my guest but the other tables in that series are good tables. Pretty much everything else in their price range is Chinese also and when you compare the finish quality and add on the Brunswick name, its a no brainer.
scruffy1 said:
I think you bring up a great point! I get guys I know from league in here and inevitably I hear "Why don't you sell Diamonds?" or "You should sell Diamonds!" Hey! What a great idea! Except the league guys wouldn't buy one because they cost a small fortune, Johnny Homeowner won't buy one because they cost a small fortune AND they're not very nice looking and most importantly of all, I'm in business to make money! The only people who make money selling Diamonds is Diamond! Even if I buy 50 tables I'm not going to make squat selling them not to mention taking one into a basement, up in a loft etc. The bottom line is if I sold Diamonds I'd be lucky to move 2 tables a year its definitely not worth it for the money I'd make.
The other thing people forget is that it doesn't have to be a Diamond, Gold Crown etc to play well. The right cloth, cushions and installer and it will play well. It doesn't have to be a Brunswick, Connelly, Olhausen, Diamond or any other big name. It just has to be set up right. The other thing is, you don't need to have a commercial grade table in your home. Most tables are sold to people for their rec rooms and its only going to get used a few times a month so why does it have to be built like a GC or Diamond?
DiamondDave said:
A lot of truth here!:thumbup: At the same time I don't think Pat and Chris can build a quality pool table for any market without sharing some of the materials, engineering, design, and esthetic's that the company's above use.
As mechanics we all see things that could be better or easer with any pool table, take the best of the best in each area of construction apply those to a new from the ground-up table and you'll really have something
special.
Conversion varnish or automotive clear-coat finish
Ridged frame with steel angle iron reinforcing
Grade A slate
High quality hardware
Then make it as pretty as possible for the price point and you have a chance of selling it up against any other brand of table. Getting the people in the door of your store to afford you that opportunity is an entirely different challenge. (see marketing expert forum...LOL)
Jay