Need some advice on staging an amateur event.

Positively Ralf

Positively Ralf

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've ran two, one day events and feel the itch to get another tournament going. With 14 players, we lasted until almost 2am. Don't really want to experience that again. I'm looking to run a single elimination bracket but would like some insights from everyone here.

I'm thinking first to 100 points wins to give everyone their moneys worth, but should it be to 100? or 75? should i have a time limit for everyone? or would that cause problems where players begin to stall? any other ideas are more than welcomed.
 
Positively Ralf said:
I've ran two, one day events and feel the itch to get another tournament going. With 14 players, we lasted until almost 2am. Don't really want to experience that again. I'm looking to run a single elimination bracket but would like some insights from everyone here.

I'm thinking first to 100 points wins to give everyone their moneys worth, but should it be to 100? or 75? should i have a time limit for everyone? or would that cause problems where players begin to stall? any other ideas are more than welcomed.
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Single elimination is brutal, as nearly half of your players will be eliminated in the first match, which is a very short and unsatisfying experience for those players.

The key factor which you failed to mention is how many tables you have to play this tournament on? Hopefully you have at least 8 tables?

The other factor you didn’t mention is whether or not you will be handicapping entrants? That is an entirely separate thread in itself, but certainly one that needs to be seriously considered if there is a large range in the skill level of the various participants, if you want it to be fair and more enjoyable for all. Of course to do that, you have to have a pretty good handle as to the skill level of all the players.

I’m not sure what the skill level of your players are as to how long each match might take, but I would recommend a double elimination format, with races to 75 in the 1st round and subsequent rounds on the winner’s side and races to 50 on the one-loss side all the way through, which will significantly speed up the tournament.

Double elimination tournaments are always extended due to matches on the one loss side. Depending on what time it is by the time the semi finals (one loss finals) match starts, that match could be extended to 75 points as well. The tournament finals should be a single race to either 75 or 100 points.

This format for up to 16 players (and I would strongly advise cutting off entries at no more than 16) if you have 8 tables to play your matches on, would take 8 rounds to complete. Assuming each round averages taking roughly 1:15 - 1:30 max, you should be able to finish the entire tournament in 10-12 hours. If you start by 11 AM or noon, you should still be finish at a reasonable hour, certainly no later than midnight.
 
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Here's a different format: Run qualifiers in groups of four, single elimination, to 50 points. Make it cheap. You can enter more than one qualifier. Have 8 qualifiers. Have the finals to 100, single elimination, eight players.

The qualifiers could start the week before for locals.
 
14 players until 2 AM?!

What time did you start?

What was the format, and how many races on both sides? How many tables did you have?

We run 32 player, double elimination tournaments all the time. Eight ball or nine ball, usually races of 5/4. Usually using 11 tables. Start at noon, and usually done by 9 PM or so.
 
David in FL said:
1.... We run 32 player, double elimination tournaments all the time. Eight ball or nine ball, usually races of 5/4. Usually using 11 tables. Start at noon, and usually done by 9 PM or so.
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Depending on the players, a race to 5 might average 40 minutes. Most 14.1 matches take longer. I've seen matches to 100 take over two hours.
 
Put clear time limits on matches and enforce sudden death rules if time goes over.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Depending on the players, a race to 5 might average 40 minutes. Most 14.1 matches take longer. I've seen matches to 100 take over two hours.
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Yep. That's why game/format and the number of tables is an important factor.

A bit less so, but still a consideration is the skill level of the players.

A lot of times it really revolves around the tournament director's ability to keep things moving…

If I remember correctly, a double elimination tournament with 32 players will result in somewhere around 62 total matches.

Even at an average of one hour per match, that's about 62 hours of total competition.

Even with only six tables, you should be able to get through it in 10-12 hours or so.

Fewer tables are going to take longer. Quicker races will take less time.
 
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Bob Jewett said:
Depending on the players, a race to 5 might average 40 minutes. Most 14.1 matches take longer. I've seen matches to 100 take over two hours.
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The number of tables you have to play on, single or double elimination, the skill level of the players, their knowledge of 14.1, the number of players in the field and the length of the races are all factors in trying to determine how long each round and the entire tournament will likely take. Then it’s usually wise to add at least an hour to the expected finish time.
 
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David in FL said:
14 players until 2 AM?!

What time did you start?

What was the format, and how many races on both sides? How many tables did you have?

We run 32 player, double elimination tournaments all the time. Eight ball or nine ball, usually races of 5/4. Usually using 11 tables. Start at noon, and usually done by 9 PM or so.
Click to expand...

Had access to 9 tables. Was a non handicapped tournament but there was enough interest even with that mentioned. Usually the players I get are a good mix between low fargo players and high fargo players. But double elimination 14.1 amateur tournaments are brutal and mind you, we started around 11am.
 
ChrisinNC said:
Single elimination is brutal, as nearly half of your players will be eliminated in the first match, which is a very short and unsatisfying experience for those players.

The key factor which you failed to mention is how many tables you have to play this tournament on? Hopefully you have at least 8 tables?

The other factor you didn’t mention is whether or not you will be handicapping entrants? That is an entirely separate thread in itself, but certainly one that needs to be seriously considered if there is a large range in the skill level of the various participants, if you want it to be fair and more enjoyable for all. Of course to do that, you have to have a pretty good handle as to the skill level of all the players.

I’m not sure what the skill level of your players are as to how long each match might take, but I would recommend a double elimination format, with races to 75 in the 1st round and subsequent rounds on the winner’s side and races to 50 on the one-loss side all the way through, which will significantly speed up the tournament.

Double elimination tournaments are always extended due to matches on the one loss side. Depending on what time it is by the time the semi finals (one loss finals) match starts, that match could be extended to 75 points as well. The tournament finals should be a single race to either 75 or 100 points.

This format for up to 16 players (and I would strongly advise cutting off entries at no more than 16) if you have 8 tables to play your matches on, would take 8 rounds to complete. Assuming each round averages taking roughly 1:15 - 1:30 max, you should be able to finish the entire tournament in 10-12 hours. If you start by 11 AM or noon, you should still be finish at a reasonable hour, certainly no later than midnight.
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My tournaments are always non-handicapped. I'm a one man show and do not have the time to look up fargo/abcd rated players. But this has never stopped me from getting 10+ players for a 14.1 tournament. I just think the novelty of a 14.1 tournament actually being ran is something a lot of players look forward to.

Also, if I were to do single elimination, I would not be charging a lot. It would be something to have and work from there as like Ive said, a lot of people have shown interest in my tournaments.
 
Positively Ralf said:
Had access to 9 tables. Was a non handicapped tournament but there was enough interest even with that mentioned. Usually the players I get are a good mix between low fargo players and high fargo players. But double elimination 14.1 amateur tournaments are brutal and mind you, we started around 11am.
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I have to admit when I first saw this, I failed to realize that it was in the 14.1 sub forum.

That can certainly make a difference.
 
Positively Ralf said:
My tournaments are always non-handicapped. I'm a one man show and do not have the time to look up fargo/abcd rated players. But this has never stopped me from getting 10+ players for a 14.1 tournament. I just think the novelty of a 14.1 tournament actually being ran is something a lot of players look forward to.

Also, if I were to do single elimination, I would not be charging a lot. It would be something to have and work from there as like Ive said, a lot of people have shown interest in my tournaments.
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Sounds like you have a pretty good idea already of what you want. I’m surprise that you can get that many players for a non-handicapped 14.1 tournament. My guess is there are no more than 2 or 3 of the best players that are almost guaranteed to advance deep into the tournament, but if you have enough entrants to think they have a chance to win and still want to pay the $ entry, that’s great.

Single elimination races to 75 will likely take you about 1-1/2 hours per round, races to 100 about 2+ hours per round, so you can do the math for how long it should take for the 4 rounds necessary to complete the tournament for up to 16 players. You could extend the final match to 125, if time permitted, but of course you’d have to make that decision and announce it before the final match started.
 
David in FL said:
Yep. That's why game/format and the number of tables is an important factor.

A bit less so, but still a consideration is the skill level of the players.

A lot of times it really revolves around the tournament director's ability to keep things moving…

If I remember correctly, a double elimination tournament with 32 players will result in somewhere around 62 total matches.

Even at an average of one hour per match, that's about 62 hours of total competition.

Even with only six tables, you should be able to get through it in 10-12 hours or so.

Fewer tables are going to take longer. Quicker races will take less time.
Click to expand...
That math doesn’t work at all. With 32 players and only 6 tables, it would take 3 sets of matches just to get the 1st round completed. A 32 player double elimination format even with an unlimited number of tables to play matches on still requires 10 rounds, potentially 11 rounds if it’s a true double elimination final.
 
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Opening Break, followed by 10 innings or 10 racks?

A race to 100 is arbitrary. A limited amount of time like 10 racks is an alternative standard that favors strong offensive players. Defensive players are the problem in 14.1


There are too many conservatives. An experimental format is worth pursuing. 14.1 is about running racks, 10 racks is enough to prove who is better and provide interesting play.
 
justnum said:
Defensive players are the problem in 14.1
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That’s no different than saying defensive play is the problem in one pocket, 9-ball or any other game. It’s an important part of the game, just as valuable at the lower skilled amateur level as it is at the pro level.

The goal of the game is to win, not to make it entertaining for the spectators or to get it over with as fast as possible.
 
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