Need some suggestions if anyone can help...(English related)

[cueball981]

Lately, I've struggled with cut-shots requiring inside English to either propel the cueball multiple cushions or to contain (hold) the cueball off a cushion after cutting in a ball. When I'm fortunate enough to aim and stroke through correctly, the results are often fantastic and work out in my favor; however, I am very inconsistent with "judging" where I should aim to account for the "squirt" applied to the cueball as well as the "throw" invoked on the object ball, both leading to missing the shot.

Wondering if anyone can provide some tips on how to approach shots requiring the use of inside English. For some reason I don't have nearly the trouble using outside English...hmmmm. Is this true for others out there too?

Thanks!

Chris :O)

 

[Saturated Fats]

As a starting point - kind of a rule of thumb - point your cue stick at the location on the object ball you where you need to make contact. For me, this solves the problem most of the time. Extreme cases require more "feel".

 

[BilliardsAbout]

You need to be careful when applying english. Do you do it backhand? Do you pivot your cue through your bridge at all?

We can start by saying how many players struggle with inside and find outside english simpler to aim and stroke... you're not alone in your struggle but more details are needed from you to better answer your question.

 

[cueball981]

Thanks for your replies, guys!

Matt, I USED to pivot my backhand when applying English...this was when I was using a modified version of the ferrule system to aim cut shots. Now, I am back to using a more traditional aiming method and I move my entire cue to reference the point on the cueball I need to stroke through. Does this help? My stance, bridge, and stroke are pretty solid, and I don't strike the cueball, rather stroke through it (table length draw isn't difficult for me). Anything else I should include?

Chris :O)

 

[master_cueist]

Lately, I've struggled with cut-shots requiring inside English to either propel the cueball multiple cushions or to contain (hold) the cueball off a cushion after cutting in a ball. When I'm fortunate enough to aim and stroke through correctly, the results are often fantastic and work out in my favor; however, I am very inconsistent with "judging" where I should aim to account for the "squirt" applied to the cueball as well as the "throw" invoked on the object ball, both leading to missing the shot.

Wondering if anyone can provide some tips on how to approach shots requiring the use of inside English. For some reason I don't have nearly the trouble using outside English...hmmmm. Is this true for others out there too?

Thanks!

Chris :O)

One thing you can always work on is simply not applying as much english. If you have a good enough stroke then you can get away with using less english. Less english=less squirt and throw. Barring extreme examples, how much difference is 6 inches to a foot going to really make with your next shot by using less english and not trying to move the cueball too much? Francisco Bustamante says he usually only ever uses I think he said 1/4 tip of english on most shots.

 

[cueball981]

I agree to a point. Most of the time, using extreme English is a result from poor position from a previous shot or because one is left poor position by his or her opponent. Sometimes, using a lot of English is unavoidable, so being as precise as possible with knowing where to aim to take into account "squirt" and "throw" is rather important. I am seeking out some advice on how to approach these shots...how does a person set up or what things do they take into consideration before committing? That's all.

Most shots on average only require a small amount of English if any English is necessary. I actually rely more on speed control and my stroke now using center English along the vertical axis moreso than I used to. I once ran 3 tables using just center ball...amazed the heck out of me!!! Haven't repeated that performance, but have ran a few tables here and there just using center ball. Pretty cool, actually!

 

[EddieBme]

Using inside english

Lately, I've struggled with cut-shots requiring inside English to either propel the cueball multiple cushions or to contain (hold) the cueball off a cushion after cutting in a ball. When I'm fortunate enough to aim and stroke through correctly, the results are often fantastic and work out in my favor; however, I am very inconsistent with "judging" where I should aim to account for the "squirt" applied to the cueball as well as the "throw" invoked on the object ball, both leading to missing the shot.

Wondering if anyone can provide some tips on how to approach shots requiring the use of inside English. For some reason I don't have nearly the trouble using outside English...hmmmm. Is this true for others out there too?

Thanks!

Chris :O)

I have a similar issue, but mostly when using draw with inside english. If you get your problem figured out, let me in on the secret
Thanks

Eddie

 

[cueball981]

Will do, Eddie! Heading home from work now and plan on practicing tonight. Maybe I'll figure out something...who knows?

 

[ENGLISH!]

Hi Chris,

I'll try. 1st. understand that if 'aimed' into the pocket when using outside 'e' the outside spin can offset the collision throw. So a ball can be aimed just inside a full hit & if the collison throw is off set the ball is pocketed. It can be spun in all the way from just outside of the full hit side of the pocket all the way to the thin hit side of the pocket. (if you aim just inside the thin hit side of the pocket the spin can throw the ball out of the pocket)

Now, inside 'e' does not offset collision throw but adds to it. So...to pocket a ball into the full hit side of the pocket one must 'aim' it more toward the middle as the collision & the spin will throw it out of the pocket if not. I say inside 'e' 'pushes' the OB but I was crucifeid for that as throw is the 'proper' term.

Now, to pocket a ball into the thin hit side of the pocket one can actually 'aim' the OB to miss the pocket & allow the collision & spin to 'push'/throw the ball into the pocket.

In general for me, but as I stated above a situation does exist where what I am about say does not work but in general, when ever I am going to use inside 'e' I cut the ball more than a center CB hit shot just like I tend to hit outside 'e' shots more full.

I think about it this way, outside 'e' 'pulls'/throws the ball more toward me & inside 'e' 'pushes'/throws the ball away from me.

Naturally, all of the above is subject to different effects depending on spin/speed ratios & angle of cuts, etc.

And naturally all of the above is just MHO & may not scientifically be correct, but it is what I have been doing for 46 yrs. with no real problems.

Regards & Best Wishes to You &

 

[CJ Wiley]

Lately, I've struggled with cut-shots requiring inside English to either propel the cueball multiple cushions or to contain (hold) the cueball off a cushion after cutting in a ball. When I'm fortunate enough to aim and stroke through correctly, the results are often fantastic and work out in my favor; however, I am very inconsistent with "judging" where I should aim to account for the "squirt" applied to the cueball as well as the "throw" invoked on the object ball, both leading to missing the shot.

Wondering if anyone can provide some tips on how to approach shots requiring the use of inside English. For some reason I don't have nearly the trouble using outside English...hmmmm. Is this true for others out there too?

Thanks!

Chris :O)

INSIDE ENGLISH and TOI

 

[CreeDo]

A huge part of maximizing the effect of inside english, is figuring out how much you can cheat the pocket. It makes a very big difference in the final position of the cue ball. And it's challenging when you have deflection changing the angle.

I think the way it works is... for cuts under 45 degrees, you're looking to hit the object ball as fat as possible without missing the shot. This sends the cue ball more 'forward' towards the first rail. The idea is that the line the cue ball takes to the rail, is as close as possible to the the direction you're trying to send it.

In this first example, I'm trying to spin the cue ball as much as possible to my right. By hitting the object ball as fat as possible, I send the cueball along the orange line to the right.

If I hit it as thin as possible, the cue ball travels on the black line. Then the spin doesn't seem to help as much. The same amount of spin takes me only to point "B" instead of point "A".

-----------------

For cuts over 45 degrees, you now want to cut as thin as you can get away with, but the final goal is the same... to send the cue ball on a straighter path to the first rail. In this example, a thin hit lets the cue ball contact the rail a bit further to the right than it would with a fat hit (the red line). Since my goal is to have the cue ball end up as far to the right as possible for position on the 9, I consciously overcut this ball a smidge, hoping to hit the first rail as far to my right as possible.

Three other tips:

• English takes best at slower speed. If hitting it softer means you also leave a longer shot... you may have to make that sacrifice in order to get your inside spin to 'take'.

Harder hits also cause the cue ball to deflect more to the side after contacting the object ball. Since the goal is to make the cue ball run to that first rail as straight as possible, hitting hard always works against you by sending it more 'sideways'. Unfortunately there's sometimes no choice.

• To maximize inside english, you want MIDDLE sidespin action. You might be required to add some top (or draw) but you want to use as little as you can get away with, because top or draw will 'dilute' the sidespin. You can't hit as far off to the side once you add high or low to your shot.

Notice in my first diagram, the contact point is only a little high, and lots of right.

There will be some cases where you hit with middle right, but after travelling a while, the cue ball picks up some forward roll from the cloth. For example in the second shot, if my cue ball is a diamond further away, my middle right might act like high-right by the time it hits the rail. The topspin it picked up is diluting the sidespin. So to compensate, I hit just a bit low, and soft like a draw-drag shot. By the time it arrives to the rail the draw has worn off, and what's left is (almost) pure sidespin.

• Don't be afraid to hit a little further off to the side than you're comfortable with.

==============

As for help with the actual aim and deflection... this will start an ENDLESS argument, and I apologize in advance, but all of this stuff is easier to aim with a low deflection shaft, unless you've spent like 20 years with a conventional shaft. You don't HAVE to use an LD shaft, you can do the same shots with the same spin using ANY shaft. The LD shaft just changes where you need to aim to make the shot. And to me, that aiming line is lot more 'common sense' and natural with an LD shaft, whereas a conventional shaft's aiming line looks weird. Your mileage may vary.

Beyond that there's no magic bullet except to set up a few shots (like the ones in the diagram) and practice them a ton. Focus on middle sidespin, way off to the right, and aim to hit the full side or the thin side of the pocket. Hit softly so the english takes, using only the barest amount of top or bottom needed.

 

[cueball981]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I am taking it all in and will post back as soon as I can wrap my brain around all of this.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I am taking it all in and will post back as soon as I can wrap my brain around all of this.

Cue,

I know it seems like alot, but don't let it scare you off. I started using english for almost every shot when I was 13. That may be why I use to say to myself, outside english 'pulls' the OB my way & inside english 'pushes' the OB away from me, aim accordingly. The more you use it, the better you will get at using it. That being said you might want to consider CJ Wileys TOI.

Good Luck with it,

 

[John Brumback]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses. I am taking it all in and will post back as soon as I can wrap my brain around all of this.

You do understand that your talking about one of the hardest shots in "straight- in" type pool,right ? IMO,you are not going to find any shortcuts or magic bulletts or gimmicks for this type of shot. If you can draw the ball like you said then all you need is some hard practice on this shot.There is nothing to "wrap" your brain around.Just practice,sorry for the bad news John B.

 

[cueball981]

Thanks! I understand how English, either left or right, affects the projectory of the object ball. I just struggle with where to aim to compensate for the amount of natural squirt imparted on the cueball by the deflection of the shaft. I oftentimes watch the cueball hit too thick or thin depending on the distance the cueball has to travel to the object ball. So I guess I am struggling with trying to accurately compensate for the deflection.

For example, object ball is a foot to the right of the bottom left corner pocket and about a foot off the bottom rail. Cueball is 2 feet down table, in line with the object ball. Want to use inside (in this case, left) English to kill the cueball off the bottom rail after hitting the cut to the left corner pocket. So often, the squirt of the cueball forces it more into the object ball (cueball veers slightly left...not as much as trying to masse' to the left...but it does move that direction over a distance rather than in a straight line) then accompanied by the throw of the left English, the object will be "pushed" to the right and hit just to the right of the pocket, missing by a hair. Hope this makes sense...I wish I could draw it up.

I will check out C.J.'s TOI (Thanks, C.J.!!!) after work tonight. I really want to get this stuff down because it's one part of my game that isn't consistent...while so much else IS.

Another thing I struggle with is hitting the cueball straight when it's right up against the cushion. I'll aim correctly, but when I follow through, for some reason I ALWAYS squirt the cueball...never travels straight, and then of course I miss my contact point on the object ball. I've had so many people tell me what to do including guys like Dan Louie, Rich Geiler, Eddie Mataya, and various other strong players here in the PNW, but nothing seems to work. Maybe I'm standing too close to the rail and thus not following through straight??? Anyways, just need to keep practicing I guess.

 

[Slasher]

Thanks! I understand how English, either left or right, affects the projectory of the object ball. I just struggle with where to aim to compensate for the amount of natural squirt imparted on the cueball by the deflection of the shaft. I oftentimes watch the cueball hit too thick or thin depending on the distance the cueball has to travel to the object ball. So I guess I am struggling with trying to accurately compensate for the deflection.

For example, object ball is a foot to the right of the bottom left corner pocket and about a foot off the bottom rail. Cueball is 2 feet down table, in line with the object ball. Want to use inside (in this case, left) English to kill the cueball off the bottom rail after hitting the cut to the left corner pocket. So often, the squirt of the cueball forces it more into the object ball (cueball veers slightly left...not as much as trying to masse' to the left...but it does move that direction over a distance rather than in a straight line) then accompanied by the throw of the left English, the object will be "pushed" to the right and hit just to the right of the pocket, missing by a hair. Hope this makes sense...I wish I could draw it up.

I will check out C.J.'s TOI (Thanks, C.J.!!!) after work tonight. I really want to get this stuff down because it's one part of my game that isn't consistent...while so much else IS.

Another thing I struggle with is hitting the cueball straight when it's right up against the cushion. I'll aim correctly, but when I follow through, for some reason I ALWAYS squirt the cueball...never travels straight, and then of course I miss my contact point on the object ball. I've had so many people tell me what to do including guys like Dan Louie, Rich Geiler, Eddie Mataya, and various other strong players here in the PNW, but nothing seems to work. Maybe I'm standing too close to the rail and thus not following through straight??? Anyways, just need to keep practicing I guess.

It's not uncommon to come across the ball when shooting off the rail, be mindful you are not over gripping the cue and steering it through the ball.
Focus on your center ball and let the cue do the work.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Another thing I struggle with is hitting the cueball straight when it's right up against the cushion. I'll aim correctly, but when I follow through, for some reason I ALWAYS squirt the cueball...never travels straight, and then of course I miss my contact point on the object ball. I've had so many people tell me what to do including guys like Dan Louie, Rich Geiler, Eddie Mataya, and various other strong players here in the PNW, but nothing seems to work. Maybe I'm standing too close to the rail and thus not following through straight??? Anyways, just need to keep practicing I guess.

Cue,

It's like Mr. Brumback said you need to get in there & dig it out of the cloth so to speak. As I said I was doing it rather well @ 13 & I had no knowledge of squirt/deflection, swerve, back hand english, front hand english, etc.

Like Nike says, Just Do It. Try to get your brain out of the way & just let your subconscious mind absorb all of the info which includes the misses. The more you do it the better you'll be able to do it correctly.

As to the quoted problem above. I personally have no problem with shooting from near or off of a rail (get your cue as level as possible). However, even after 45 yrs. of playing I started having a bit of trouble shooting from off the pocket on long shots the result of which were very similar to yours. It did not take long for me to figure out my problem. I shoot with a near snooker stance & with a very low head. When on the pocket, & I had to elevate the back end of the cue, I was jamming op my stroke combined with my less than optimal low head for aiming. So... all I had to do was simply turn my stance a bit to the right (I'm right handed) & that freed up my stroke & pocketing those long shots from off of the pocket came back.

I'm not sure that this will help you, but it is more food for thought. I know you must be getting a full belly by now.:wink:

Best of Luck with All &

 

[CreeDo]

Another thing I struggle with is hitting the cueball straight when it's right up against the cushion. I'll aim correctly, but when I follow through, for some reason I ALWAYS squirt the cueball...never travels straight, and then of course I miss my contact point on the object ball. I've had so many people tell me what to do including guys like Dan Louie, Rich Geiler, Eddie Mataya, and various other strong players here in the PNW, but nothing seems to work. Maybe I'm standing too close to the rail and thus not following through straight??? Anyways, just need to keep practicing I guess.

I struggled with this too. What finally helped me is to just stare at the middle of that cue ball and make sure I deliver the tip right down the center. Don't steer it.

A sort of... I dunno, mindset I apply when faced with a tough shot from the rail:
"I may not be 100% sure of where I should be aiming, but after I hit the ball, it's totally out of my hands. I can't steer or affect the ball at all once I make contact. So the only thing I can do is make my best guess about where to aim, then deliver the cue straight. Forget about it after you feel the tip connect and just accept whatever happens."

There's currently a big argument about whether people should be looking at the cue ball while they hit it. Most of the time you will naturally want to look at the object ball. But this might be a time where it's helpful to keep staring at the cue ball through the entire swing. Or at least right up til the last second.

PS: The ball acually doesn't deflect much when hit off-center against the rail, because you're hitting pretty high on the cue ball. You're putting a lot of top on the ball vs. only a little side. So if you miss it, you might just have to face the idea that you don't know exactly where to aim. It might even be that when you shoot the ball normally, you subconsciously deflect or steer the shot, or english it in... and you're hitting it 'perfect' off the rail :shocked:

 

[cueball981]

All great points...and again, really appreciate the hints, insight, and support! Just like with other aspects of this game, some I've managed to master quite well, these problem areas will take time to master as well. I have to say, even after 20 years of being a study of the game, there are still things I am learning each time I hit that table. I don't miss these shots all the time, but when I do, I always think I shouldn't be missing them...you know? Could be a lapse in focus to, as sometimes even the slightest of thoughts can disrupt the correct mechanical application of a shot. Happy Shooting, fellow AZer's!!!