Need to be a Pro to Teach Pool?

[Jeff]

Reading another thread made me think about this.

Do you think for someone to teach billiards, they need to be a Pro, been a Pro, or at least be close to the level of a Pro player?

Other sports do not adhere to this. Look at tennis, golf, basketball, boxing, just to name a few.

Look at Basketball in particular, although there are many top coaches who began coaching after great careers as players there are just as many who probably never played past college or even high school.

 

[Timberly]

No. There are great teachers and great players... they are rarely the same people.

 

[curlyscues]

no, i don't think you have to be great to teach. i have been helping people to play the game for over 30+ years and all have gotten better depending on their dedication. some have gone on to be much better than i am. (damn kids) as long as they do as i say and not as i do they can be much better.
lesser players can teach also, not unlike karate schools that have the lower ranks help the beginers. plus teaching is also a way of learning.
M.C.

 

[Pinocchio]

Observation!

Watching talented players engaged in action or tournament play is a great teaching tool. Videos are another killer tool. You can learn many things this way an apply this in your practice session. Instruction is fine but long practice sessions as frequently as possible combined with the above will make you a better player. If you have good fundamentals an practice an play diligently for approx. 2 years you should be vastly improved. Bar tables an 8 footers are okay but I would think the big track is where its at.Just one chumps opinion.

Pinocchio

 

[Island Drive]

Not at all, but they have to understand the game, ball collisions and cause and effect. Teaching is acquired, allot of top end players can "explain" what just happened but not all can communicate what happened.

 

[sjm]

Here's a post I made a long time on this subject that offers my point of view:

What is it that makes a pool instructor a great one? Is it knowledge? Is it communication skills?

I recall that when I was a college student, I took an economics class and the professor was a Nobel Prize winner. Unfortunately, his great scholarship wasn’t enough to make him a great teacher, because he didn’t seem to have the ability to communicate well with the students in the class. In other economics classes, though, professors having far less scholarship taught me more than the Nobel Laureate because they had superb communication skills.

What, then, is the perfect mix of scholarship and communication skills? In fact, it is really rather simple, it’s all about maximizing P, where:

P = proportion of a subject that can be taught by a teacher
K = knowledge, the percent of a subject that is understood by the teacher
C = communication skills, percentage of the teacher’s knowledge of a subject that they are able to convey to students

The basic idea is that P = K x C

For example, one who understands 80% of a subject and is able to communicate 60% of what they know is capable of teaching only 48% of a subject. A less knowledgeable teacher might only understand 70%, but if they have enough communication skills that they can convey 90% of what they know, they are capable of teaching 63% of a subject, and would qualify as the teacher you can learn more from.

The very best pool players tend to have a high K value, but most of them have a C value that is far lower than those who focus on and develop their teaching skills and teaching materials. This explains why, in seemingly every sport, the best players are nearly never the best teachers. The best communicators may have a very high C value, and it's usually more than enough to offset the fact that they may have slightly less knowledge.

Remember, when you choose a pool instructor, try to maximize P, not K. If you’re one of the lucky ones and have already hooked up with a pool instructor with a high K value and a high C value, stay the course, for you’ve got the right instructor working with you.

 

[pooltchr]

Watching talented players engaged in action or tournament play is a great teaching tool. What specifically should I be looking for when watching these talented players?Videos are another killer tool. Home videos of yourself are particularly helpful, but again, what should I be looking for?You can learn many things this way an apply this in your practice session. How should I go about making this a part of my practice session?Instruction is fine Fine? How about the best way to learn?but long practice sessions How long should my practice sessions last?as frequently as possible How frequently?combined with the above will make you a better player. But you have to know what to do, don't you?If you have good fundamentalsHow do you know if you have good fundamentals? an practice an play diligently for approx. 2 years you should be vastly improved. Either that, or you will have learned very well how to do some things the wrong way.Bar tables an 8 footers are okay but I would think the big track is where its at.Different size tables offer different challenges and require some different skillsJust one chumps opinion.
Pinocchio

I don't think you can find a better way to learn than to spend time with a good instructor. I just spent two weekends with several professional instructors, and there are probably 15 students who would agree with me.
Steve

 

[skins]

imo yes you have to be somewhat of a great player to a great teacher. you don't have to be a champion but it's players who know the reactions on the cloth who are the best teachers and without experiencing them you can't teach them. even though the game is full of book science there are many aspects that can only be taught by someone who has seen these anomalies and knows how to use them to their advantage. there are people who teach well according to the player level they are teaching but to bring forward a good natural players "best" game they'll need all the knowledge you can give them.

 

[Pinocchio]

pooltchr

Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. I said instruction is fine but I would think most champions are self-made. They made pool their life I even heard of one player who made a table his bed his name is Efren. I meet David Howard at approx. 14 yrs old same with Shannon Daulton an buy the time the were both 16 yrs they both could beat some of the players on tour. I never knew either to have any pool teacher. Do you think race car drivers like Jeff Gordon went to go-cart school. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio

 

[boradriver]

Instruction can help anyone even if you are a top pro or a beginner. Other people can see things and pick up on problems much easier than you can yourself. I remeber hearing a story about Efren getting some lengthy instruction for one of AZ's regular poster on one pocket(not first hand information so maybe Grady can chime in). I myself have never taking a lesson and it shows, but when I started playing about 7 years ago there were some old guys that I played with all the time that taught me a great deal.

 

[Gerry]

Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. I said instruction is fine but I would think most champions are self-made. They made pool their life I even heard of one player who made a table his bed his name is Efren. I meet David Howard at approx. 14 yrs old same with Shannon Daulton an buy the time the were both 16 yrs they both could beat some of the players on tour. I never knew either to have any pool teacher. Do you think race car drivers like Jeff Gordon went to go-cart school. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio

I'm right there with you on the self made part, but......yea, Jeff Gordon has gone to more than 1 driving school. He was a Sprinter/Midget/cart driver for years, but when it came to road courses He was not so great. After learning how to turn right, He started winning road races. My brother in law and I went thru the same driving school as Jeff.

I feel you need more than 1 teacher through out your career. No one teacher can teach you everything. Some will show you basics to advanced instruction, but then you might start going in a different direction so you need a different teacher. I had guys show me how to play 14.1, but hated 9ball, others taught me to gamble, or play in tourneys, or gamesmanship, but didn't play that great themselves.

On a similar note, I have taught players much better than I how to break, so even though someone may play at a lesser level than you, they may have MUCH to teach you....

great thread, Gerry

 

[Roadie]

Champions are not self taught. While they may not have had formal instruction they are most assuredly not entirely self-taught.

Do you need to be a pro to teach? No. Neils Feijen is a prime example of the product of formal instruction and training from non-pro systematic instructors. Corey Duell on the other hand is from what I know of his pool pedigree, a good example of a champion formed under championship tutelage.

I have learned things from "pool teachers" that I can spot the seven out to if we gamble. Just because these folks can't execute under pressure doesn't diminish the knowledge they have. I have also learned a lot from my world beater friends that most instructors don't cover. Little nuances of safety play, one pocket moves, nine ball moves and the like. I think that most of these things come from the type of experience that most non-pro level instructors are unlikely to gain. They are battle-tested advanced level moves that only come when two champions are matched up and forced to invent things to win the match.

I think that it is rare that a novice student will stay with an instructor long enough to learn these moves even if the instructor knows them.

Would a pro spend any time with an instructor? See example above of Neils Feijen. Yes, if they are serious about keeping sharp and not letting bad habits creep into their game. Does anyone think that Bela Karoli (sp) was ever capable of executing the moves that his many world champion gymnasts perform?

This goes back to the fact that pool as a profession is not very lucrative. Thus there is little money to afford a full time coach nor much financial incentive to see one. Thus pool hasn't really got the equivalent of a Karoli or any famous coaches who produce champions. The legendary and elusive Hal Mix excluded.

 

[Roadie]

Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. I said instruction is fine but I would think most champions are self-made. They made pool their life I even heard of one player who made a table his bed his name is Efren. I meet David Howard at approx. 14 yrs old same with Shannon Daulton an buy the time the were both 16 yrs they both could beat some of the players on tour. I never knew either to have any pool teacher. Do you think race car drivers like Jeff Gordon went to go-cart school. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio

From personal experience, your guess would be incorrect. Several of the top pros have had instruction or coaching from people not as talented as themselves throughout their lives. Neither Shannon nor David were self-taught to the point that they could consistently win against champions and they would be the first to tell you that. Did they enroll in a class? No, they didn't. Were they instructed? You bet they were.

Charlie Bryant has talked in the past about having a stable of players that are caoched and trained by champions. I would like to see him realize this concept and see what kinds of champions it could produce.

Grady Matthews proposed taking on a student a while back. Did he ever find anyone to meet his criteria?

Perhaps Pinnochio, the question you need to ask is are there any current champions who started with basic instuction to advanced instruction by formal instructors, such as a BCA certified instructor? Bert Kinister claims Neils Feijen but Feijen's was an accomplished player through disciplined training regimens before meeting Kinister so Bert can only claim part of Neils' development, and that was through a special bond with his coach.

Instructors? Now is the time to toot your horn and tell us about your student's accomplishments. I'd like to know which players to watch out for that I don't already know.

 

[Island Drive]

Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. I said instruction is fine but I would think most champions are self-made. They made pool their life I even heard of one player who made a table his bed his name is Efren. I meet David Howard at approx. 14 yrs old same with Shannon Daulton an buy the time the were both 16 yrs they both could beat some of the players on tour. I never knew either to have any pool teacher. Do you think race car drivers like Jeff Gordon went to go-cart school. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio

I assume you forgot about the snooker players from Europe, and by the way Nick Varner was taught by Huber Cokes starting back in the late 60's and early 70's he also asked Hal Nix, not positive on Hals last name spelling, but point is the Colonel had allot of help, probably why he may be one the of toughest all around players to every play the game in his heyday. Remember VArner visited Efren in his prime and played him over three days in the Phillipines and beat him.

 

[JPB]

This has been discussed a lot. It is clear you don't have to be a top player to be a teaching pro. You need to play well enough to know things, but you have to know how to teach. In many endeavors, the best teachers or coaches are guys who became pretty good players through a lot of effort. Where a great player might have larned something quickly and made it automatic and now ehen he executes it and you ask him how it is done, you might get answers like "I don't know" "I just do it" "I don't think about it" that kind of thing. And he is being truthful. He steps up and does it. OTOH a player who had to think about how to do it and who learned how through a lot of work who still might have to think about it can often help more. He knows a given technique and maybe has taught it to many different people who all need it conveyed in just a little bit different way.

Remember too, and this has been said. A student isn't just an empty container waiting to have stuff poured in. Educational philosophy in the US has often placed too much stress on what the teacher does. This started with people like Dewey and Skinner, guys with pretty monstrous ideas really. The student has to learn the task, not just have it taught to him, so what goes on is not a one way street. However, I do think a knowledgeable and good teacher is important. I don't think that top class playing ability is required. I don't think you would ever find a good teacher of any sport who couldn't play it. But good players take lessons all the time from people who they can easily beat.

 

[justnum]

dewey and skinner may or may not have had monstruous ideas, its very subjective.

Another perspective is that they provided the first insights about a particular subject. Those insights would later be developed by other theorist, and get proven wrong or right.

 

[Cornerman]

Reading another thread made me think about this.

Do you think for someone to teach billiards, they need to be a Pro, been a Pro, or at least be close to the level of a Pro player?

Other sports do not adhere to this. Look at tennis, golf, basketball, boxing, just to name a few.

Look at Basketball in particular, although there are many top coaches who began coaching after great careers as players there are just as many who probably never played past college or even high school.

I think there can be different levels of instructors and coaches. IMO, a coach and an instructor are two different things that require sometimes vastly approaches. An instructor develops by instruction. A coach develops by maximizing what the player's tools are.

That being said, the very best instructors have to have some level of ability. I'm not sure what that level is, but it's a gray area. More importantly, they have to have a high degree of communication skills, teaching skills, observation skills, and bartending skills.

Bartending skills is short for listening, interpretation, character defining, basic psychology, understanding the human spirit and human condition, etc.

Fred

 

[Dead Money]

I think it depends on the level of player being taught to some degree how "good" a coach/imstructor needs to be. I have a friend who has decent natural ability and I have helped her game improve a lot. Not by formally teaching her but by showing her things here and there when ever we play. Sometimes I will do something as simple as giving her a muligan and suggest she try a shot a different way than she did it. She's good enough now that if you leave her basic outs in nine-ball of 2,3,4 and sometimes even 5 balls she will get out most of the time Makes me happy every time she does it too!

 

[JPB]

dewey and skinner may or may not have had monstruous ideas, its very subjective.

Another perspective is that they provided the first insights about a particular subject. Those insights would later be developed by other theorist, and get proven wrong or right.

Actually it isn't subjective at all. Although those two would have you think that. Well, I don't know if skinner would because he would say you don't have a mind and don't really think.

 

[Scott Lee]

Of the top 10 players in the world how many would you think have spent 2 weeks with a pool instructor? My guess would be a big fat zero. My point is dedication an hard work makes pool champions not pool teachers no disrespect intented. A little instruction is fine.


Pinocchio

Hmmmm...let's see! Do the names C.J. Wiley, Allison Fisher, Karen Corr, Gerda Hofstetter, Vivian Villareal, Jeremy Jones (and MANY others who are top players, but not recognizable "top pros"), ring a bell? They have all been to pool school. Did they become champions BECAUSE they went to pool school? No. Did they become better players because they went to pool school? Undoubtably!

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com