Negotiating With English

DrCue'sProtege said:
my question is: am i missing something here?

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Nope, you're not missing anything. Well, not really. If you're going to get out, you need to miss the 8-ball, but get on the 4-ball. IMO, you have to take your lumps and play for a sharp cut on the 4-ball.

Using any right english as you've drawn increases your chances of running into the 8-ball if you miss the 8-ball going into the cushion. Set it up with lots of follow, with a medium speed. Forget about the 3-ball. Just try to get an idea of what it takes to get clear of the 8-ball and 9-ball for some kind of shot on the 4-ball. You might find you'll need a hair of inside (left-hand in this case) to hold the cue ball.



Fred
 
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I'm not saying I would play this shot this way, but this shot is available in those cases where running into a ball on the bottom rail, in this case it is the 8-ball, is an option. When the balls are this far apart it is obviously more tricky, but there are times when there's a ball on the end rail that is unavoidable. The trick to this shot is that you have to hit the 8-ball first, and not too thick so as to completely kill the speed on the cue ball. However, if you run into the 8, not too thick, with a good amount of inside english, you can spin back out 2 rails.

In this particular shot I suspect that you can avoid the 8 so, if that's the case, I would do what you're already trying to, although I would hit the cue ball higher and play to hit the bottom rail before the 8.

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DrCue'sProtege said:
lets stick to analysing this shot, ok? i believe i have been insulted enough with the other thread about age.

if you are facing this shot, how do you play it? if you try and use just a little bit of low on the cue ball you will more than likely run into the '8' Ball. so it seems logical you have to place about a tip of right english on this shot to pocket the '3', avoid the '8', and come around for the '4' Ball.

my question is: am i missing something here? is there another way to play this shot? seems like i run into this type of shot all the time, and have a hard time when i have to use 3:00 or 9:00 english.

DCP
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I can't believe noone has offered up this 2-way safety. I like this shot dependant on whether I think I can get by the 8-ball cleanly or not.:)

START(
%CL4T3%DN2Y5%E_9P5%Fq3H9%Ge9D7%HD2J6%IM5O2%Pf1T4%UL7Z5%VC3V7
%WN3T1%Xe1T5%YD4N7%ZL9S5%[L4D2%\C4M6%]D4V4%^K3T3%eC2`4
)END
 
I think in this situation I would duck by sending the 3 ball over behind the 4 and send the cueball to the opposite side rail, preferrably behind the nine.

I know lots of guys here wouldn't hesitate going for the run but I certainly know my limitations and luck :eek:

Koop
 
you couldn't hit the eightball and float the cueball to the center of the table for any kind of shot on the four. I have seen a similiar shot that Niels Feijen did. A nine foot shot, and he had to hit the ball on the rail and use it to come out to the center of the table, i know it might be hard to judge it but its possible to do if you can't get around the eightball.
 
TX Poolnut said:
I can't believe noone has offered up this 2-way safety. I like this shot dependant on whether I think I can get by the 8-ball cleanly or not.:)

START(
%CL4T3%DN2Y5%E_9P5%Fq3H9%Ge9D7%HD2J6%IM5O2%Pf1T4%UL7Z5%VC3V7
%WN3T1%Xe1T5%YD4N7%ZL9S5%[L4D2%\C4M6%]D4V4%^K3T3%eC2`4
)END
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That's the ticket I think. At my level anyway, making the 3 AND getting postion on the 4 from this position is less than a 50% proposition.

The only difference in my initial thinking was to bank the 3 to the upper long rail and put the CB over by the 4. Yours is better I think because it takes a scratch out of the picture.
 
On second thought

I think those who said the draw shot is too tough from that angle were right after all. It looked like less angle to me when I suggested that than it does now.

So my next thought is one rail with follow and a touch of inside. As long as you don't hit the 9, you're in good shape:

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-Andrew
 
I would go with the TXPoolnut safety....why shoot a harder shot than is necessary....
________
 
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Andrew Manning said:
I think those who said the draw shot is too tough from that angle were right after all. It looked like less angle to me when I suggested that than it does now.

So my next thought is one rail with follow and a touch of inside. As long as you don't hit the 9, you're in good shape:

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-Andrew
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That's the shot. The soft/med. follow bends it forward of the tangent line (that would normally hit the 8) and so what if it hits the rail and glances off the 8?...it still comes up table enough for a cut on the 4.

Speed is the most important thing here, imho.

Jeff Livingston
 
Way I would play it...

I would play it just straight up with center follow, take the 2 rail bounce, coming back down in the area you started out in, maybe a little further, and take the longer close to straight in shot on the 4. (YOU WILL NOT HIT THE 8). You could shorten the cue up some with right english, but then you increase the chances of hitting the 8 AFTER hitting the end rail with the cue, so I would not risk that. Just straight hi, about a 4 speed out of 10.

(If the rest of you can not see that the cue will not hit the 8, then you must not be very good at carom shots ... lol)
 
chefjeff said:
That's the shot. The soft/med. follow bends it forward of the tangent line (that would normally hit the 8) and so what if it hits the rail and glances off the 8?...it still comes up table enough for a cut on the 4.

Speed is the most important thing here, imho.

Jeff Livingston
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I agree, that looks like the best shot for the angle as it is appears.

Also, english billiards players know well that playing with IE reduces the deflection angle of the CB. OE increases it. This knowledge is invaluable for making scratches when the angles are not quite natural.

So the IE will help to avoid a collision with the 8-ball.

Colin
 
Colin Colenso said:
I agree, that looks like the best shot for the angle as it is appears.

Also, english billiards players know well that playing with IE reduces the deflection angle of the CB. OE increases it. This knowledge is invaluable for making scratches when the angles are not quite natural.

So the IE will help to avoid a collision with the 8-ball.

Colin
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I'm glad you agree with the shot.

I have a question for you: do you know why it is that OE and IE seem to affect the tangent line in this way? I've observed it too, and I believe it makes a very noticeable difference, but I can't come up with any physics that would offer an explanation for this effect. Jal, jsp, cornerman? Surely someone has an explanation.

-Andrew
 
well, with IE you have a thinner cut angle, so the tangent line actually moves. same with OE in the other direction, obviously.

-s
 
steev said:
well, with IE you have a thinner cut angle, so the tangent line actually moves. same with OE in the other direction, obviously.

-s
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Newton shoots down that explanation with the whole "every action... equal and opposite..." idea. If the spin "throws" the OB off the normal line that would be produced by the contact point, it "throws" the CB tangent in an equal and opposite way; meaning back to where it would be if you'd cut the ball in with center ball. Put another way, the OB path and CB tangent have to be perpendicular to conserve energy and momentum, regardless of what combination of contact point/english you used to produce that OB path.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Newton shoots down that explanation with the whole "every action... equal and opposite..." idea. If the spin "throws" the OB off the normal line that would be produced by the contact point, it "throws" the CB tangent in an equal and opposite way; meaning back to where it would be if you'd cut the ball in with center ball. Put another way, the OB path and CB tangent have to be perpendicular to conserve energy and momentum, regardless of what combination of contact point/english you used to produce that OB path.

-Andrew
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I haven't gotten deep into the physics of what you discuss above, but on some shots it doesn't seem to hold exactly true. eg. You can play straight on shot with english and make the CB stop (or move just a little) while the OB deflects several inches from its path. So perhaps the net effect in resultant tangent angles don't always cancel out.

Another possibilty is that some swerving of the CB changes the angle to impact slightly. In the shot we're discussing, IE would make the CB come in from a slightly fuller angle.

Colin
 
Andrew Manning said:
Newton shoots down that explanation with the whole "every action... equal and opposite..." idea. If the spin "throws" the OB off the normal line that would be produced by the contact point, it "throws" the CB tangent in an equal and opposite way; meaning back to where it would be if you'd cut the ball in with center ball. Put another way, the OB path and CB tangent have to be perpendicular to conserve energy and momentum, regardless of what combination of contact point/english you used to produce that OB path.

-Andrew
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i respectfully disagree. in 2d this might make sense, but follow/draw will and does react differently in these situations.

and yes, i may have studied a little physics on my way to an engineering degree.

let's agree to disagree instead of arguing all day though. :)

-s
 
Originally Posted by xianmacx
do you guys realize the Draw shot is similar, yet more difficult (worse angle), to shooting a spot shot, drawing to side rail and back across above the side pocket?

Who can realistically shoot that spot shot?

Black-Balled said:
Efren and


NOT ME.
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Hell thats one of Hennessi's favorite shots. Im an 8 on our state's 10 scale and I can make the shot more than not on a 9' triple shimmed Gold Crown.
 
steev said:
i respectfully disagree. in 2d this might make sense, but follow/draw will and does react differently in these situations.

and yes, i may have studied a little physics on my way to an engineering degree.

let's agree to disagree instead of arguing all day though. :)

-s
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Agreed then; we'll disagree. I also studied a little physics on my way to my engineering degree, which just goes to show you: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

-Andrew
 
Get_A_Grip said:

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Ignore red line...don't know how that one got in there...lol
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The safe isn't a bad idea but if you hit it just a little off, the 3 ball runs into the 9 and you could leave a hit, or worse yet, a shot.

I would play the 3 at pocket speed with a little bit or right (maybe even high right) and go two rails.

One thing that is key to remember is that sometimes, hitting other balls can actually help. In this situation, the main thing to worry about is not clearing the 8 ball completely, but making sure you hit the rail first! Play it with right and if you sail past the 8, you get perfect two-rail position. If you hit the short rail first, then the 8, the right english will slide the cue ball up table any help you out.

But as someone else said early, if you continue to play the shot the same way, the results will be remarkably similar every time. If at some point, you make a mistake doing something the same way, switch it up a little and take note of the results.
 
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