Never Aim - Your "Mental Eye" Knows What's Expected...Trust Your Eye

[Sloppy Pockets]

You're the one that used their training as a reference to make your point. When it doesn't fit your story, now you want to argue about it? That makes perfect sense.

I used the instinctive point-aiming training that many of the world's elite fighters now undergo to counter JCIN's claim that it's rubbish. That's it. What has that got to do with what you are bringing up about it being ineffective inside 5'? I don't understand why that doesn't make sense to you, or what you believe my "story" is, and I don't want to argue the point with you.

 

[JCIN]

You shoot real good, I'm very impressed. But are you saying that you are getting the sights on target - front sight aligned with rear sight aligned with target center - for each shot, including bringing the muzzle back down after the recoil?

What's that, the 10 yard line? What do you think your results would be firing carefully aimed single shots from the bench at that distance with the same pistol? Seems to me if you are really using the sights as you say during rapid fire shooting that your results would be similar to what you might get shooting from the bench.

Sights on a firearm are a wonderful invention. They make precision shooting from a distance possible. But there are too many instructors in law enforcement and special forces units all over the world who teach instinctive point shooting for real-life combat situations to make a blanket statement that it's all rubbish.

Of course, this has nothing to do with shooting pool. You can't put sights on a cue, and even if you could, you'd still have to aim at a specific point. Which just doesn't exist anywhere except in the mind. That's why Efren laughed when Shane asked him if he uses the stick to aim with. As Shane himself says, "Now, it's just automatic."

I see the sights lift and return on each shot. It happens very fast obviously and when you go that fast what you need to see to break the shot changes from a very precise shot at 25 yards. Its like the difference between the focus needed to make a ball hanging in the pocket and a length of the table straight in down the rail.

I know and have taken classes with some of the best shooters in the world both competition and guys who shoot people for a living. To a man they tell you basically the same thing: Use your sights if at all possible. If an instructor advocates point shooting past anything over three yards it tells me all I need to know regardless of what he says his background is.

In speed shooting there is a saying: You can only shoot as fast as you can see. Meaning you need to know what you have to see to get the result the you are looking for. If its two shots in .30 seconds at 10 yards it looks much different than 2 shots in a second at 50 yards. Both situations require seeing what you need to see though not just relying on instinct.

As for pool the instructors here are much more knowledgeable than I. If a not aiming aiming system improves peoples games then its great.

Re: The elite units and point shooting. I cant think of anyone more high speed than CAG. Here is what one of guys who taught the current generation of Delta shooters has to say on point shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

I see the sights lift and return on each shot. It happens very fast obviously and when you go that fast what you need to see to break the shot changes from a very precise shot at 25 yards. Its like the difference between the focus needed to make a ball hanging in the pocket and a length of the table straight in down the rail.

I know and have taken classes with some of the best shooters in the world both competition and guys who shoot people for a living. To a man they tell you basically the same thing: Use your sights if at all possible. If an instructor advocates point shooting past anything over three yards it tells me all I need to know regardless of what he says his background is.

In speed shooting there is a saying: You can only shoot as fast as you can see. Meaning you need to know what you have to see to get the result the you are looking for. If its two shots in .30 seconds at 10 yards it looks much different than 2 shots in a second at 50 yards. Both situations require seeing what you need to see though not just relying on instinct.

As for pool the instructors here are much more knowledgeable than I. If a not aiming aiming system improves peoples games then its great.

Re: The elite units and point shooting. I cant think of anyone more high speed than CAG. Here is what one of guys who taught the current generation of Delta shooters has to say on point shooting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI

I didn't mean to derail this thread with a firearms discussion. Of course, use the sights on a handgun if you can, and if you have practiced properly using them. But human beings have an inherent ability to point quite accurately at a target, even a moving one. That's how a cue is aimed - by pointing, not by sighting.

FWIW here's another viewpoint on point shooting and the military's recommendations for its use in the field. I know it won't make you want to add it to your practice regimen, but it is a valid argument nonetheless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk


Getting back to pool...

 

[JCIN]

I didn't mean to derail this thread with a firearms discussion. Of course, use the sights on a handgun if you can, and if you have practiced properly using them. But human beings have an inherent ability to point quite accurately at a target, even a moving one. That's how a cue is aimed - by pointing, not by sighting.

FWIW here's another viewpoint on point shooting and the military's recommendations for its use in the field. I know it won't make you want to add it to your practice regimen, but it is a valid argument nonetheless.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ix4kNmEYyEk


Getting back to pool...

This is my last post on the subject but I just have to say that video is ridiculous and if you consider it supporting evidence for your point then there is nothing I can say that will make any difference.

Your statements about the military and LE recommending point shooting techniques on a wide scale basis was true fifty years ago. Today no serious experienced trainer would do so. The problem is there are lots of inexperienced goofy trainers out there and teh internets gives them a broad audience.

To put this back on track of pool I am more inclined to listen to what CJ has to say on the idea of instinctive aiming/playing whatever he wants to call it as it relates to pool because he does play at a high level and has a track record. I think it does a disservice to what he is trying to get across to compare it to something that is considered by almost all knowledgeable pistols shooters to be hogwash.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

This is my last post on the subject but I just have to say that video is ridiculous and if you consider it supporting evidence for your point then there is nothing I can say that will make any difference.

Good, then I'm glad to see I get the last say in the matter.

It was CJ who said he found similarities between handgun shooting and pool, and it was CJ that you quoted earlier and said that it was garbage to shoot a handgun that way, not me.

As far as "nothing you can say that will make a difference" to me, you don't know me at all. How can you make such an outlandish accusation? Just because nothing you have said so far has convinced me that I'm out to lunch doesn't mean I can't be convinced via a more compelling argument than you've given already.

I think it does a disservice to what he is trying to get across to compare it to something that is considered by almost all knowledgeable pistols shooters to be hogwash.

Again, CJ made the original comparison. All I did was to add my agreement from my own personal POV. And, if history repeats itself here, we will be waiting for a long time for his elucidation on the matter. Hope you packed a lunch.

And with that, I'm unsubscribing.

 

[genomachino]

The secret here is we don't aim with the stick.....

But we can use it for a reference once down on the shot.

We aim starting in the preshot. Our brain is looking at the overlap naturally trying to figure out how much of this ball is going to hit the other one.

By knowing where the natural sights are we become the target. We are the only thing that can move. The pocket, object ball and the cue ball all stay the same.

We become the target. By getting in the most correct position we can prepare ourselves for the challenging events that happen on the way down to try and keep us (The target) in the correct position.

If this is done right we have the same good look that we had up above in the preshot. If we waiver off the line the results will show up in a missed shot for sure.

By learning how to keep this good line on the balls and where perfect is we can really enhance our ability to aim.

Aiming is exactly like aiming a gun or arrow but it is just backwards.

Just think about it for awhile.

With a gun or arrow when aiming the only thing that should change is the target. Your eye will always be on the sights and then on the target. The only thing that changes is the target. The eye and the sight will always stay the same in this equation.

With a pool shot the only thing that will change on that shot is you. You become the target. Get there and come down staying there and the puzzle is complete.

Getting there and staying there is where the dominant eye comes in because on the way down our vision can cross without us even knowing it. This happens when the non dominant eye tries to work like the dominant eye just a little bit. It doesn't take much to foul up the look.

This can be taught just like shooting a gun or arrow but it is just backwards.

Learning how to aim is important for any type of accuracy whether it's a gun, arrow or pool shot.

Just nobody ever figured this out with the pool shot before and it's so darn hard to tell someone in words.

But when every single person you show says WOW ! Does this ever make it easier, you know you have something special.

I've been doing it for 5 years on the road.

Trying to compare guns, arrows and a pool shot is like comparing oranges, apples and grapes.

But once a person looks at a pool shot as just backwards it can start to make sense.

But the secret is we aim with the eyes on the balls, not the stick.

But if a player really knows where the eyes need to be to envision the shot as perfect as possible, why would you want to get your conscious mind out of the way and lose this good look.

This might make sense to players that don't know what I teach with the eyes but to the ones that have learned how this works it is laughable to say the least.

Just like telling a person shooting a gun to line up the sights and then get your conscious mind out of the way and let it happen naturally.

But one thing that is good with the gun. At least you know where perfect is.

Unless you learn where perfect is with a pool shot your not even starting out in the right place to begin with.

 

[nine_ball6970]

What a lot of players don't realize is you have to get your mind out of it. It's about seeing what you want in sensuous imagery. Yes you must put in hours of practice, develop muscle memory, yada yada. In the end the part of your brain that leads to dead stroke, in the zone or whatever you want to call it are driven by visual images, not verbal commands. Yes you evaluate the table, decide what needs to be done & then shut off the inner talk and visualize & truly "see" the result, then execute it.

Here is an article related to the above players should read if they want more information.

http://www.billiards.colostate.edu/PBReview/Imagery_Use.htm

 

[CJ Wiley]

It was CJ who said he found similarities between handgun shooting and pool,

Just to be more clear, I've done a great deal of pistol shooting as well and there is similarities.....however, it's more about getting the barrel on the vertical line of the target and coming down on that line....then stopping at the horizontal line to "zero in" (using the sights).

In pool the "sight" is the tip of the cue.....I teach players to come down on the vertical axis of the shot as if they were cutting the cue ball with a scalpel (this is simply an effective visual analogy for precision).

So my "aiming" is instinctive, however there's a systematic way I have discovered to get into the correct position to enable this process.

When a player doesn't have advanced fundamentals required for an effective pre shot routine it's {more than} challenging to consistently create the angle required to be a top notch shot-maker. (this would be like shooting a pistol by coming across the horizontal axis with little chance of stopping at the correct position relative to the vertical "line of the shot".....the shot patterns would be "scattered"...and that would reflect in a pool game in much the same way. (my pre shot routine is demonstrated in 'The Ultimate Pool Secrets') - Food For Thought......

'The Game is the Teacher'

Good, then I'm glad to see I get the last say in the matter.

It was CJ who said he found similarities between handgun shooting and pool, and it was CJ that you quoted earlier and said that it was garbage to shoot a handgun that way, not me.

As far as "nothing you can say that will make a difference" to me, you don't know me at all. How can you make such an outlandish accusation? Just because nothing you have said so far has convinced me that I'm out to lunch doesn't mean I can't be convinced via a more compelling argument than you've given already.




Again, CJ made the original comparison. All I did was to add my agreement from my own personal POV. And, if history repeats itself here, we will be waiting for a long time for his elucidation on the matter. Hope you packed a lunch.

And with that, I'm unsubscribing.

 

[nobcitypool]

Just to be more clear, I've done a great deal of pistol shooting as well and there is similarities.....however, it's more about getting the barrel on the vertical line of the target and coming down on that line....then stopping at the horizontal line to "zero in" (using the sights).

'

What haven't you done? I'll bet your friends all nicknamed you Chuck Norris didn't they?

 

[(((Satori)))]

CJ,

Galloway's Inner Game Of Tennis is a book that teaches concepts similar. I'm sure you are familiar with it.

I like the way he teaches by labeling a self 1 and self 2. He talks about how self 2 is able to perform a learned skill flawlessly if self 1 will get out of the way and allow self 2 to work but he explains how self 1 lacks trust and needs to give instructions... for example try to pinpoint the aim instead of allowing self 2 to look at the shot and naturally see where to line up without effort.

My question comes here. Galloway recommends intense focus using your senses during your match in order to keep self 1 occupied so that he can not try to control the shots with his instructions of what to do or perhaps worse, take you out of the here and now with concerns about what will happen if you miss or make the shot, thereby creating overthinking. For example Galloway recommends using self 1 to intensly focus on the seams of the tennis ball so it Is distracted from wanting to give instructions. In his book he recommends to focus on one of the following or something similar; the spin of the ball or the bounce/hit or the sound generated from striking the racket or the feel of the contact etc.

My question is do you intensly focus your conscious mind on your senses when playing pool to keep it from entering the picture so that you can stay in subconscious mode? And if so, what are the things you focus on in pool?

Thanks.

 

[CJ Wiley]

.when I discovered women I had to reduce my hobbies

What haven't you done? I'll bet your friends all nicknamed you Chuck Norris didn't they?

I come from a town of 629 people, there was nothing much to do but hunt, fish, farm and play sports/games......when I discovered women I had to reduce my hobbies considerably. .....such is life.

 

[8pack]

[/I]As long at a player has a consistent, relative starting point (I recommend Center/Center and Center/Edge) the unconscious "eye" knows what to do to achieve the desired outcome......the key is to get out of the way {consciously} and allow this process to happen naturally.

A good friend sent me this link, it sums what I'm saying up very well using archery as the example......I also recommend the book 'Zen in the Art of Archery' for anyone wanting to understand this process at a deeper level.

LINK TO "AIMING" IN ARCHERY <--------[/. very interesting.

 

[yankee817299]

“Skill in any performance whether it be in sports in playing the piano in conversation or in selling merchandise consists not in painfully and consciously thinking out each action as it is performed but in relaxing and letting the job do itself through you. Creative performance is spontaneous and ‘natural’ as opposed to self-conscious and studied.”
― Maxwell Maltz, Psycho-Cybernetics, A New Way to Get More Living Out of Life

 

[nobcitypool]

I come from a town of 629 people, there was nothing much to do but hunt, fish, farm and play sports/games......when I discovered women I had to reduce my hobbies considerably. .....such is life.

Ain't that the truth. LOL

 

[CJ Wiley]

we are hard wired to express ourselves through the activities that attract us

“Skill in any performance whether it be in sports in playing the piano in conversation or in selling merchandise consists not in painfully and consciously thinking out each action as it is performed but in relaxing and letting the job do itself through you. Creative performance is spontaneous and ‘natural’ as opposed to self-conscious and studied.”
― Maxwell Maltz, Psycho-Cybernetics, A New Way to Get More Living Out of Life

I agree, the biggest challenge in mastering anything is getting out of our own way (consciously) and allowing the unconscious to create.....we are hard wired to express ourselves through the activities that attract our attention.....some people use music, art, professions, sports, games, linguistics, poetry, writing, etc.....there are common denominators in all these examples......they are best done in "The Zone" or some call it "Deep Reflection". .....'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[(((Satori)))]

CJ,

Galloway's Inner Game Of Tennis is a book that teaches concepts similar. I'm sure you are familiar with it.

I like the way he teaches by labeling a self 1 and self 2. He talks about how self 2 is able to perform a learned skill flawlessly if self 1 will get out of the way and allow self 2 to work but he explains how self 1 lacks trust and needs to give instructions... for example try to pinpoint the aim instead of allowing self 2 to look at the shot and naturally see where to line up without effort.

My question comes here. Galloway recommends intense focus using your senses during your match in order to keep self 1 occupied so that he can not try to control the shots with his instructions of what to do or perhaps worse, take you out of the here and now with concerns about what will happen if you miss or make the shot, thereby creating overthinking. For example Galloway recommends using self 1 to intensly focus on the seams of the tennis ball so it Is distracted from wanting to give instructions. In his book he recommends to focus on one of the following or something similar; the spin of the ball or the bounce/hit or the sound generated from striking the racket or the feel of the contact etc.

My question is do you intensly focus your conscious mind on your senses when playing pool to keep it from entering the picture so that you can stay in subconscious mode? And if so, what are the things you focus on in pool?

Thanks.

I am a big believer in what you are teaching here. I have studied this quite a bit myself. But I am curious about what I asked about here.

I am curious because, while my shooting relies heavily on my subconscious, I have only been able to get into a state where my conscious mind is totally out of instruction mode by drifting off into the zone, and drifting into the zone is not something I can rely on being able to systematically do.

Galloway suggests some techniques that I mentioned above but I have never been able to effectively focus in that manner. For me it is more of technique like Dr. Maltz teaches where you see the shot in your mind then trust. To be precise I look at the object balls path I want, this tells me where the CueBall will need to connect. I see the path the CueBall will take after contact. Then I plant my back foot on the line of the shot and drop in to shoot. There is still a lot of conscious thought in my procedure although stuff like deflection and curve and pinpointing an aim point on the ball to line up on are sjbconscious.

However when I get in the zone my conscious mind is totally out of the way. You seemed to be able to drift into the zone a lot back when you played. Seemingly at will which is kind of unheard of. I was just curious if you had a method for taking the conscious out of the picture? Perhaps something similar to what I mention Galloway teaches earlier? But how does that work when playing pool, a game that requires more thought than tennis imo.


This is a tough subject to teach but important imo in understanding how to play at the highest levels. Thanks for taking the time to teach it.

 

[CJ Wiley]

your unconscious needs a starting point to determine what's needed.

You are right on target, however, remember that your unconscious needs a starting point to determine what's needed.

It's like getting directions to go to any city, it's not possible unless you know where you are now......this is universally true.

My reference points (starting point) is the relationship between the cue ball and object ball of either "CENTER (cueball) / CENTER (object ball)" or CENTER/EDGE ...without this vital information available to your unconscious it can't create the needed angle consistently......on long shots you can use CENTER/CENTER most of the time and on short shots you can use CENTER/EDGE....it's either one or the other and knowing the difference comes with practice and calibration. 'The Game is the Teacher'

I am a big believer in what you are teaching here. I have studied this quite a bit myself. But I am curious about what I asked about here.

I am curious because, while my shooting relies heavily on my subconscious, I have only been able to get into a state where my conscious mind is totally out of instruction mode by drifting off into the zone, and drifting into the zone is not something I can rely on being able to systematically do.

Galloway suggests some techniques that I mentioned above but I have never been able to effectively focus in that manner. For me it is more of technique like Dr. Maltz teaches where you see the shot in your mind then trust. To be precise I look at the object balls path I want, this tells me where the CueBall will need to connect. I see the path the CueBall will take after contact. Then I plant my back foot on the line of the shot and drop in to shoot. There is still a lot of conscious thought in my procedure although stuff like deflection and curve and pinpointing an aim point on the ball to line up on are sjbconscious.

However when I get in the zone my conscious mind is totally out of the way. You seemed to be able to drift into the zone a lot back when you played. Seemingly at will which is kind of unheard of. I was just curious if you had a method for taking the conscious out of the picture? Perhaps something similar to what I mention Galloway teaches earlier? But how does that work when playing pool, a game that requires more thought than tennis imo.


This is a tough subject to teach but important imo in understanding how to play at the highest levels. Thanks for taking the time to teach it.