New BCAPL Advanced Division

[DogsPlayingPool]

Holly, I get it but it's still a bummer. A player member doesn't have that many opportunities to compete (unlike weekly league teams) so it would be nice to be able to double or triple up as long as you're making the trip to Vegas. But I do see your point.

I suppose the reason so many can compete in singles and teams is that they are not contested at the same time. In the Open division singles at Nationals do you have any info on what percentage also play on teams and what percentage are not on teams and play BCAPL strictly on a player-member basis?

How many events are available yearly for a player-member in say, Southern California, without having to travel?

 

[TheCaveman]

Foreign countries can not have National teams. Foreign countries, to qualify, must have more than a global league that encompasses their entire country.

I agree with Watchez when it comes to the Foreign Teams. They shouldn't be able to send a super team to Vegas. I remember trying to start a State Wide Monthly Traveling league here so we could get all the teams from across the state playing against each other. The concern that was relayed to us is that we'd build super teams from all the best players. If we can't do it in a State, I don't think a foreign country should be able to do it either.

The change to an advanced division, I think it's good. Good for the tournament, good for the players. I'm waiting anxiously to see how it's going to affect Teams. In AZ, we're scrambling because the SW Championship is only a few weeks away and we have to figure out who can play with who.


I do agree with Duane that more players from the Open need to be moved into the Masters.

 

[DunnM1]

Not good, and not good for pool!

 

[almer]

Dear Almer,

Thanks for your feedback. Each league is different as you know. The BCAPL players who compete in league tournaments, state, regional and national we believe will welcome the Advanced division. We believe for the BCAPL, the new division will allow players who can too easily dominate the Open division yet they feel they really don't have a great chance in the Master division their "own space" as you will. We've received requests over the years for those in the BCAPL singles middle world to implement a division of this kind in order to feel comfortable playing in singles again. I believe the division will be successful and at the same time more clearly define what is a true Master player too.

Cheers,
Holly

holly i know personally 3 of the top 5 finisheres in the open division,at least 2 have always played in masters and dropped to open this year,1 also won masters vnea and everything in acs,the problem with pool leagues which i have enjoyed and supported for many,many years is some players dont want to compete with players of their own level and look at leagues as a quick way to make a few thousand when the opportunity arrises for them.that part will never change.I have been ranked as a open and master also but age has way of evening out our abilities to play for long periods and play at top of your game,anyway ill support whatever you guys decide but i may disagree

 

[Duane Tuula]

Duane,

The Advanced division is not pillaging from the Masters, just creating better definition. In fact we'd love to see you play again at nationals and the Advanced division is ideally suited for a player like yourself. We haven't seen you play in the Singles since 2005. I saw you did very well cashing at 17th place in the Men's Master Singles then in 2006 your Men's / Mixed Master team took 13th, but you did not play in singles that year. I outlined this as an example of why an intermediate / Advanced division's time has come. Sorry if you do not agree that we are not pulling from the Open division enough into the Advanced division. I hope you are in the situation or choose to compete again. In your situation you would be an advanced player starting in 2011 should you so request.

All the best,
Holly

Wow, you just reinforced why "having a little knowlegde is dangerous". I'm going to have a good laugh now :yikes:

 

[cardiac kid]

Wow, you just reinforced why "having a little knowlegde is dangerous". I'm going to have a good laugh now :yikes:

Duane,

My guess is this opinion is will be unwanted. Like you, I finished 17 - 24 in the Master's. Mine was three straight years before the BCAPL took over. During those years, BCA and BCAPL graduated between 42 and 64 players a year into the Masters. Yet each year the field was barely over two hundred. Where did those players go? My bet is most played one additional year in the Masters and then gave up! Looking at the Masters field, it is basicly the same players, year after year. It can't grow. It can't grow because finishing 17 - 24 in a field of two hundred of the very best only pays $375! To win that, I had to beat at least six or seven players of equal or better talent. There just is not enough money to keep those players coming back for the level of competition offered. And I didn't even mention the English, Spanish, Portuguese and where ever the next National Tournament invasion is going to come from.

Adding the "Advanced" division does give some of those soon to be missing Master level players a place to go where they potentially don't have to play world beaters match after match. I understand the concept. The problem is the Masters division will go away. There just won't be enough new players to overcome the losses. The field will shrink and bye, bye. Perhaps the BCAPL is thinking of combining the Grand Masters and the remaining Master players into one group. A field of 128 might be just right. Let them beat each others brains out. Not me. I'm happily entered into the life of a Super Senior:boring2:.

Lyn

 

[DunnM1]

New BCAPL Advance Division

How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people.

 

[akaTrigger]

How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people.

What?

Whatever.

 

[stuckart]

How can you guys be in favor of this? This is a bad idea! They can not justify what makes you go up or what will make you come down. The only way to use past performance is to have everyone play everyone else to see who is really the better player. The only reason, they are looking into this is because someone that can not win the open is complaining they don't have a chance. Why not make a B Division, for those people.

I'm 100% in favor for this division. This is exactly what needs to happen. You are taking all players that were Masters at some point, but can't compete as Masters, you are taking all Team Masters and some but not all of the OPEN singles players and putting them in this division. Top 8 in the Open (this year) still go to Masters, but the 9th-48th go in as Advanced, which is exactly where they belong. I think after the CSI Investigators finish looking at all State Tourneys, Regionals, etc. they will have a great list of players that are "Advanced" and also a super competitive "Masters" tournament. Not to mention many many more players that can come out and actually compete in the "OPEN" division now without having to worry about playing a Monster. This can only grow the event, which benefits everyone! (Except maybe the other league systems :wink: )

The best thing this does is do away with the Masters Team Event, which never has really worked. This way, you can have a True OPEN Team event without teams with Masters and Grand Masters on them and maybe one Advanced Player instead. Then you get an Awesome Advanced Team tournament with teams of Advanced Players with a few Masters thrown into the mix.

 

[DunnM1]

So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy. And the open division should pay less than the other higher divisions. The reason you are getting people wanting to play in the lower divisions is because the money is there. Don't say there is not enough money, the APA pays $25,000 for first. How can you decide on past performance. NO NO NO! Why not add divisions to the pro's. :wink:

 

[JoeyA]

Personally Holly, the new Policy looks more fair than the old policy. I think it's a step in the right direction.

HOWEVER, I'm curious as to whether an Advanced Player will be allowed to play in the Senior's Division.

Just wondering.....

 

[TheCaveman]

So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy. And the open division should pay less than the other higher divisions. The reason you are getting people wanting to play in the lower divisions is because the money is there. Don't say there is not enough money, the APA pays $25,000 for first. How can you decide on past performance. NO NO NO! Why not add divisions to the pro's. :wink:

The open division pays more because it has more entries. 2000 people in the open and 600 people in the Masters. Are you suggesting they take money from a different tournament and use it to pay for another event?

All the events at Vegas are different events.

I would agree that more of the added money should go to the higher skilled divisions, but I think they already do this.

To take money from the open to pay the masters, that's like telling your local Friday night tournament that has 30 players to take some money from it's pot and pay for the Sunday night 10 player tournament.

I've made the case many times that more people need to moved into the Master Division to keep the tournament big, but very little people get bumped. The one thing I loved about the VNEA is that if you won the open team event, the players all became Masters regardless of how they did in Singles. Of course, that was over 10 years ago when I went there so maybe things have changed or my memory isn't that good. Holy Crap I'm getting old. lol

This change will benefit the Team Events. Sure Master's teams might have to break up, but reforming teams might be a good thing. The APA limits teams to a certain handicap (or rating or w/e). That's pretty much the same thing that CSI has been moving towards. Limiting teams to players with certain skill levels.

It'll be good for a majority of the players and that is probably something that CSI is comfortable with achieving.

We'll see how it shakes out, but at the end of the day I believe in the team at CSI.

 

[Celtic]

Not to mention many many more players that can come out and actually compete in the "OPEN" division now without having to worry about playing a Monster.

Until you play one of the Team Spain guys who speaks no english, noone at the BCAPL knows whot he heck he is, but he is a monster in his home country.

There will still be monsters in the open. Every single year some slip through the cracks, many of the better players don't even win the first year in the open due to the short race to 5 format being closer to a "coin flip" then a tournament you pay $1000+ and a week of your life to travel to and play in. There are guys I know that got bumped up to the Advanced that have played every year for many years in the open singles and never managed to crack into the masters. Great players but once you get into the final 64 or so everyone is running racks and 1 or 2 dry breaks is all you have to do wrong to get knocked out.

 

[cardiac kid]

So you guys want to play lessor players because you are tired of taking 17th-24th in the Master's Division. This is REALLY REALLY bad for pool and the BCAPL. It failed with the VNEA and the BCAPL will please the few and not the whole. The answer is not creating a new division. It is all about putting the tournament money in the correct spots. You 25% of the field only and pay it top heavy.

Dunn,

Did you read my entire statement about finishing 17 - 24. My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play? That's why there are so few players in the Masters year after year. Dropping some of them to the Advanced division only creates a future problem and does not solve the one facing the BCAPL today. Perhaps adding some serious money to the event would stimulate some absent players to show up. Adding a new competition division will not. Their just shuffling the deck again.

Lyn

 

[Celtic]

Did you read my entire statement about finishing 17 - 24. My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play?

Thing is it is a $150 entry tournament with only 128 players and a $5300 first place prize. They paid $400 for 17th through 24th.

Those numbers are not that bad compared to say the US Open 9-ball, which is a $600 entry fee and 17th through 24th gets $2000. Factor in the fact that the US Open had alot more players and the BCAPL Masters looks pretty good on relative payout for that placing based on the entry fee.

You did not pay $1000 to enter the tournament, you paid most of that money for travel and hotel. And that is the problem with the tournaments, atm the money you spend on the entry fees into the events are a joke compared to the amount of money you spend getting to Vegas and staying there.

What they NEED to do to make the singles truly worthwhile is up the entry fees by alot. If I am spending $1000+ on travel and hotel I want to play in a tournament that has at least a $300 entry fee in the singles, I would happily pay $500 if the payouts then reflect that entry fee.

Think about it, I am spending $500 for a plane ticket and $500 for a hotel and $125? $150 to enter the actual tournament?

So atm I am spending $1150 total, and a whopping $150 is the entry fee into the tournamanet, less then 15% of my total costs. That SUCKS.

Most pool players spend alot of money traveling to tournaments that have an actual significant entry fee and purse, they are not normally traveling across the country for a $150 tourament.

What I would like to see? I am paying $1000 in expenss no matter what so how about a $500 entry fee into the singles? Truth be told $1500 is not that much more then $1150 in the grand scheme of things because the travel costs are already steep. At least this way the tournament can pay off alot more money if I go deep though. Now if you get into the money at the double the entry stage you get back $1000 and it actually helps eat some of the travel costs. If you get to the tripple stage of the money you get back $1500 and voila, you broke even on the whole trip including the entry fee.

ATM though? I have gotten to the $300-450 stages alot and guess what, for all that work I get fleeced because the "winnings" don't even come close to covering the expenses. From an entry fee perspective ya I made money, but in truth I lost a ton. I want a finish on the final board to actually pay off if I am spending $1000+ to be at a tournament, and without some serious increase in the entry fee in Vegas that is not going to take place.

If people are spending a huge sum of money to go to a tournament in Vegas make the entry fee into the singles make sense and give those players a tournament with an entry fee and prizes more in scale with their expenses.

 

[cardiac kid]

Thing is it is a $150 entry tournament with only 128 players and a $5300 first place prize. They paid $400 for 17th through 24th. Those numbers are not that bad compared to say the US Open 9-ball, which is a $600 entry fee and 17th through 24th gets $2000. Factor in the fact that the US Open had alot more players and the BCAPL Masters looks pretty good on relative payout for that placing based on the entry fee.

Not a bad comparison. The US Open has, if my memory serves me correctly, $50,000 US added money. The BCAPL Masters event had $12,000 added. $600 entry verses $175. $600 includes table fees, $175 does not. US Open 256 entries. The Masters 126. US Open 1st place $40,000, Masters $5300. An interesting point is the BCAPL is adding nearly $100 per player to the Masters prize fund to get the payouts to where they are today. Pretty damn good.

You did not pay $1000 to enter the tournament, you paid most of that money for travel and hotel. And that is the problem with the tournaments, atm the money you spend on the entry fees into the events are a joke compared to the amount of money you spend getting to Vegas and staying there.

Anything I spend from the moment I leave my home till I return is part of my expences. Normally the event entry fee is the smallest part of my expences. Most people consider the May events their yearly vacation time. I don't.

What they NEED to do to make the singles truly worthwhile is up the entry fees by alot. If I am spending $1000+ on travel and hotel I want to play in a tournament that has at least a $300 entry fee in the singles, I would happily pay $500 if the payouts then reflect that entry fee.

Wow, with the declining number of entries, forking over even more money doesn't sound like a viable route to take. If you don't mind paying that kind of entry fee, perhaps you should consider playing in one of the professional events held concurrently with the BCAPL Amateur. Think the entry fee for the US Open 10 ball was $500. Same expences.

ATM though? I have gotten to the $300-450 stages alot and guess what, for all that work I get fleeced because the "winnings" don't even come close to covering the expenses. From an entry fee perspective ya I made money, but in truth I lost a ton. I want a finish on the final board to actually pay off if I am spending $1000+ to be at a tournament, and without some serious increase in the entry fee in Vegas that is not going to take place. If people are spending a huge sum of money to go to a tournament in Vegas make the entry fee into the singles make sense and give those players a tournament with an entry fee and prizes more in scale with their expenses.

I don't consider I was "fleeced" at any one of the fifteen or so BCA(PL) events I've attended in Vegas. The event is first and foremost a vacation for the greatest percentage of players. Most don't go with the idea of winning. Cashing, even in the lowest places, is what keeps some people coming back. Think there are "ringers" now. Raise the entry fee to even $300 and the only players there will be sponsored pro players and road agents. Sure won't include me! Regardless of the level of dis-satisfaction shown by some players, the BCAPL May event is still the "greatest pool tournament in the world". This past event was absolutely my next to the last one. Been saying that for fifteen years now.

Lyn

 

[Celtic]

My point was the fact there was NO money in the Masters except for the top few places. Think I would have had to finish 5 / 6 or 7 / 8 just to break even. Why spend nearly a $1000 to play?

Regardless of the level of dis-satisfaction shown by some players, the BCAPL May event is still the "greatest pool tournament in the world". This past event was absolutely my next to the last one. Been saying that for fifteen years now.

Lyn

That IS quite the 180 spin CK.

Personally though, ya I would rather pay 3 times the current entry fee and see payouts be 3 times higher. Make winning the open 30k instead of 10k. Make the place that paid out $400 now pay out $1200. No matter what the entry fee in the tournament is I am paying 4 digits just to get and stay there, I would rather have a higher prize pool and more significant tournament or else ya, it does make more sense to cash out the trip to the BCAPL and instead spend that same money to go to the US Open 9-ball. But is does not have to be this way, the tournament can up the entry fee to make the event reflect the money I am spending to be there. And the 1291 entries into the event are a large reason the thing is a race to 5. Up the entry fee, loose a few hundred players, and now make it race to 7? Sounds good to me IMHO.

 

[cardiac kid]

Celtic,

This past year I participated in eight (8) BCAPL leagues. Six in Rochester and two over the Winter in Vegas. At the Nationals, I played the 9 Ball Open, Super Seniors, Scotch Doubles and the Open team events. Wound up breaking even for all my entry fees. Not the best year for me.

Even though I ask questions, I support the BCAPL and what they have done for pool. Having said that, there is still room for improvement. I have ideas. You have ideas. If we kept them to ourselves, BCAPL would think everything is OK. It isn't. It can and should be better!

Incidentally, did you note the change to the foul / scratch on the break rule? Cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. Not sure I agree. Gives the better player a huge advantage. Sure will speed up the game and the number of racks played during BCAPL events though.

Lyn

 

[Duane Tuula]

Even though I ask questions, I support the BCAPL and what they have done for pool. Having said that, there is still room for improvement. I have ideas. You have ideas. If we kept them to ourselves, BCAPL would think everything is OK. It isn't. It can and should be better!

tap, tap, tap...

 

[DunnM1]

Celtic / Cardiac Kid

Great conversation. But first when I saw that statement "Greatest pool Tournament in the world", I had to laugh. It has some great features, yes but I think it is one of the worst ran tournaments of that size that I have ever witnessed. To prove my point, Saturday during the team event, In my opioion it was more important to get the second chance tournament and some mini's going than it was to run the main tournament. I think what people needs to understand is that this is an amateur event. I do not like the different divisions. I think it should be Pro's, Semi-Pro's and Amateurs (all those individuals that don't fit in to the other two categories). What I do have a problem with is someone trying to put the players into division categories on past performance. If they have a full time job (not playing pool) they are for the most part an amateur. Put them all together, no open, advanced, master, grand master. Just one with them all.

Entry fee, I'm ok with it as it stands. The money is not great and by adding another division it is going to be even less.

Playing in leagues, used to be fun. Seems now leagues are more interested on getting every last $. It is getting to the point that I might stop playing in the leagues because they are not interested in the sport but the $'s. Maybe it is time to play in Valley Forge, US Open (again, played in it back in 2002), and the Derby.