New Respect For Snooker Players.

[mnorwood]

I will say only one thing: Snooker and pool are two sports that need to be highly skilled in order to be a Top recognisable player. BUT in the snooker accuracy and lack of luck determines the level of difficulty thus which of two sports has to be more recognised and well payed. Unfortunatelly, for pool the 9-ball is dominant and level luck is pretty high. If 14.1 was the most popular one then things might be better for pool....well that was not only one thing after all

I have always believed that the pro game should be 14.1 or rotation and it should be played on 10 foot tables with 4.25 inch pockets. In the past other posters have disagreed with me but I think these things would be good for the game.

 

[TheOne]

what do you mean this longer races issue is bs? it's no excuse or anything it's just stating the facts which you yourself i think agree with. ("If Pro level pool races aren't adequete to differentiate between who's the best player then what does that say about Pro Pool!")

well it says that the pro pool tournament format isn't good enough to show the best player. exactly. so if you make it a longer race then it becomes more true and the pool player would have the big advantage.

lets reverse it for a minute. say if john schmidt was playing quentin hann in a snooker and pool challenge, would it be fair if the pool part was race to fifty ten ball and the snooker part one frame? quentin misses a long opening red and john manages a 70 break or something then it's over. wouldnt be fair.

saying the longer races argument is bs is wrong because it's completely relevant.

I say this because the argument, well my reading of it is its easier for a pro snooker player to compete at pro pool than visa versa. So why try to change the races? If a match up ever happens it should be it standard tournament races. If you want to make it fairer pick the lowest race in each at world championship level. 10 for snooker, and I think race to 10 9 ball in WPC(?) and race to 10 at the IPT. Race to 150 14.1 was the mid level race at the 14.1 worlds.


It just makes me smile when I hear people change the races, race to 1000 14.1, race to 50 9 ball! You don't hear the snooker players changing the standard races, is this all the proof we need that it IS EASIER to for Snooker players to compete at pro level pool?

 

[smashmouth]

If Pro level pool races aren't adequete to differentiate between who's the best player then what does that say about Pro Pool!

it says the state of the game is a mess Sherlock, which has nothing to do with the argument at hand

 

[TheOne]

Time has passed and things change. Not everything eminates from the West anymore. Snooker of course is popular in those colonized countries of a once great power. In America we broke away from Colonial powers wishing to develop our own culture and our own history. As an industrial power we developed into a nation of individuals. Our own music, our own industry, our own sports. Pool being one of them and one pocket especially.
Now when you say "minor" are you explaining your terminology or retracting into a "niche" kind of thing. Pretty clumsy transition I say. No One Pocket is not being played worldwide but neither was American Football big anywhere else nor do I think baseball is really being played in Europe. So are they "minor" sports or "niche" sports. As an American I say NO.
I dont object to respecting snooker players. Not at all I am a great fan of Jimmy White. I think Ronnie is fabulous. Davis is a great ambassador. And Hendry is Hendry. But please show some respect for the American pool cueist. I think comparing pool to snooker is about as smart as comparing soccer to football.
What I object to and I repeat is thinking someone like John Schmidt a great cueist is second rate compared to the lowliest of snooker players. He is the US open Champion and deserves the credit that he is due. Thats why its called the MOSCONI cup. We give a great cueist his due. Now if you want to say that poor Willie was playing a moderately easy game and that all those high runs and tournament wins were just a breeze in the game of 14.1 you would sound ridiculous. So does Quentin Hann.
As far as the Thai cueist goes. A man like James Wattana had a very rough time in the UK. Traveling back and forth to his country but he was supported by a benevolent benefactor. THE KING OF THAILAND. Im sure if any one was supported by the head of ones country and given a kingly stipend he could make a go at it anywhere. Perhaps Manalo didnt have that kind of support.
Now lets end this on the word of respect for both sports. Im sure we agree that they are both sports that require top skills and determination. And neither one excels over the other.

I think you are getting much of the things QH said confused with what I have said. I do respect pool, I probably love it more than Snooker. However I think the facts cleary show that its easier for Snooker players to make the conversion than visa versa. I do however understand how these debates come across as elitist and how defensive it makes pool players.

Ex Snooker player Manalo btw didn't do too bad in his fist ever 14.1 events in NJ.

As a side note...
I've always thought 14.1 on a 10ft tight table would be the ultimate test, American style equipent.

I'm curious:

a) Who would you back if you matched up a Filipino top player who has NEVER played 14.1 against QH?
b) Would JS still be heavy favourite if the match up was made under these conditions?

 

[BlackDragon]

see snooker has 'culture', its dignified. 9ball is the anti-thesis of culture. Cowboyish, yes. 9ball, disposable packages of televised entertainment never to be looked at again (after being seen the first time)
the other thing, is perfect for Trudeau marketing to get this match-up as they did Archer- Earl. Quentin vs Schmidt. Perfect. Or another promoter.
The snooker/8ball challenge where the brits crucify the yanks at the Cruicible won't happen as it would be an embarrassment. One sided event.
Barry Hearn probably couldn't go there but the european audience would love it as much as they hate the yanks.
Another thing, Quinten was world 8ball champ too.
As for 'Banks', most players won't bank a ball but play long down the rail for position. So why bother with 'banks' when only agressive players play them anyway.
As fas as 'one pocket' thats the craziest slowest game ever. Its not minor. Its smaller than that. And 'banks' isn't even seen.
An all round world challenge with the three disciplines, 9ball, 8ball and snooker. That would be a blast.
Straight pool, thats just practice, training drill.

 

[worriedbeef]

I say this because the argument, well my reading of it is its easier for a pro snooker player to compete at pro pool than visa versa. So why try to change the races? If a match up ever happens it should be it standard tournament races. If you want to make it fairer pick the lowest race in each at world championship level. 10 for snooker, and I think race to 10 9 ball in WPC(?) and race to 10 at the IPT. Race to 150 14.1 was the mid level race at the 14.1 worlds.


It just makes me smile when I hear people change the races, race to 1000 14.1, race to 50 9 ball! You don't hear the snooker players changing the standard races, is this all the proof we need that it IS EASIER to for Snooker players to compete at pro level pool?

well now thinking about it there are two seperate issues here then.

snooker players competing with pool players at longer race pool matches, perhaps challenge games.

and snooker players competing in professional pool tournaments.


i do agree it's easier for them to compete in pool tournaments than the other way around.

but i don't agree that it's easier for them to compete in a challenge match, or any format which doesn't give the better player the opportunity to come out ahead.

not trying to be nit-picky or anything but it seems after 21 pages there are actually two points being debated, and ultimately mixed up and confused.

 

[Scaramouche]

I posted this a few days ago. Nobody commented. Strange for such an opinionated group. It raises the clash of the approaches of Americans and Europeans to billiards

Watching the World 9-Ball, commentator Rico Diks mentioned:

That Europeans look upon billiards as their sport and are willing to get coaching, and concentrate on tournaments not gambling, just the opposite to the American approach.

That the Mosconi European team was worked by their coach, doing shooting drills etc. to get them fit for the brawl with Earl and his mob. He didn't mention what preparation (if any) Earl and his mob had before crossing the pond.

Comments and enlightenment requested

 

[yobagua]

I know The One you are trying to address the contradiction seriously. I respect that. Let me tell you one thing. Snooker in its present form has a culture surrounding it. And that is the training and actual playing experience. The players are constantly trained by coaches and mentors to the techniques of the game. Much like the Eastern Bloc or the Chinese do with their Olympic athletes. You cant survive in the snooker world if you dont have this background. So a transition to any cue sports is easily digestible for they have a proper method instilled in them.
Americans pool players like Olympic athletes are on their own. No funding and not allowed any income to maintain amateur status. No combine to back the potential genius. All are being done by the individual. It is the American way. It is not a collective approach but one of individualism and thus American ingenuity must be relied upon. Except for the rare Gus D'amato type guys, Americans are on their own particularly pool players. Can you imagine if every town had a pool hall with a club of supporters that would support its local prospect like England does . And every pool hall has a Mark Wilson or a Scott Lee to instruct that prospect on a daily basis. Can you imagine if pool had the guys like Barry Hearn who supported a field of professional players to not only help them play in great conditions but groom them to become champions in every way?

I say in this way yes its easier for the snooker player to make a transition but it is why the Americans will always be tough to deal with. Take a look at Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Cory Deuel, Buddy Hall, these guys made it on their own. No higher institution of learning but they all have professorships of the Road. They made it playing all night sessions in some smokey back room crossing the country living in dumps and still came out on top. Let a snooker player live that life and see if they come up on top.

Thats why I say you cant compare the two. Pool is a way of life as well and now it is entering into a more organized business like field. Things will have to change. And it has with young guns coming out of the Mark Wilson schools like Justin Bergman and Shane Van Boening with a family background in the sport. Yes snooker players can make the transition but you have to understand why. American pool players are going to have to learn that there are other ways besides the road if they want to compete on an international level. But it is the American ingenuity and confidence in the self that will overcome.

Right now I am sitting in my hotel room in Louisville reminding of myself who originated from this environment. Muhammed Ali himself. Arguably the greatest boxer of all time. And he did this on his own will and dedication and passion. I think that in becoming succesful in anything you must have that. I think we can compete with anyone because of it.

 

[raybo147]

I know The One you are trying to address the contradiction seriously. I respect that. Let me tell you one thing. Snooker in its present form has a culture surrounding it. And that is the training and actual playing experience. The players are constantly trained by coaches and mentors to the techniques of the game. Much like the Eastern Bloc or the Chinese do with their Olympic athletes. You cant survive in the snooker world if you dont have this background. So a transition to any cue sports is easily digestible for they have a proper method instilled in them.
Americans pool players like Olympic athletes are on their own. No funding and not allowed any income to maintain amateur status. No combine to back the potential genius. All are being done by the individual. It is the American way. It is not a collective approach but one of individualism and thus American ingenuity must be relied upon. Except for the rare Gus D'amato type guys Americans are on their own particularly pool players. Can you imagine if every town had a pool hall with a club of supporters that would support its local prospect like England does . And every pool hall has a Mark Wilson or a Scott Lee to instruct that prospect on a daily basis. Can you imagine if pool had the guys like Barry Hearn who supported a field of professional players to not only help them play in great conditions but groom them to become champions in every way?

I say in this way yes its easier for the snooker player to make a transition but is why the Americans will always be tough to deal with. Take a look at Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Cory Deuel, Buddy Hall, these guys made it on their own. No higher institution of learning but they all have professorships of the Road. They made it playing all night sessions in some smokey back room crossing the country living in dumps and still came out on top. Let a snooker player live that life and see if they come up on top.

Thats why I say you cant compare the two. Pool is a way of life as well and now it is entering into a more organized business like field things will have to change. And it has with young guns coming out of the Mark Wilson schools like Justin Bergman and Shane Van Boening with a family background in the sport. Yes snooker players can make the transition but you have to understand why. American pool players are going to have to learn that there are other ways besides the road if they want to compete on an international level. But it the American ingenuity and confidence in the self that will overcome.

Right now I am sitting in my hotel room in Louisville reminding of myself who originated from this environment. Muhammed Ali himself. THe greatest boxer of all time. And he did this on his own will and dedication and passion. I think that in becoming succesful in anything you must have that. I think we can compete with anyone because of it.

I was just checking out some video from the pro ticket qualifiers they have in the UK and it would be great if pool over here could get to that point. Most of the young talent with one focus to go get on that main tour and try to make it big. IPT was kinda similar for a very short time but hopefully something better than that is just around the corner. Sadly now for great young pool players it is hard for them to know how to further their careers while in snooker it is very clear(although very difficult!).

 

[TheOne]

I know The One you are trying to address the contradiction seriously. I respect that. Let me tell you one thing. Snooker in its present form has a culture surrounding it. And that is the training and actual playing experience. The players are constantly trained by coaches and mentors to the techniques of the game. Much like the Eastern Bloc or the Chinese do with their Olympic athletes. You cant survive in the snooker world if you dont have this background. So a transition to any cue sports is easily digestible for they have a proper method instilled in them.
Americans pool players like Olympic athletes are on their own. No funding and not allowed any income to maintain amateur status. No combine to back the potential genius. All are being done by the individual. It is the American way. It is not a collective approach but one of individualism and thus American ingenuity must be relied upon. Except for the rare Gus D'amato type guys, Americans are on their own particularly pool players. Can you imagine if every town had a pool hall with a club of supporters that would support its local prospect like England does . And every pool hall has a Mark Wilson or a Scott Lee to instruct that prospect on a daily basis. Can you imagine if pool had the guys like Barry Hearn who supported a field of professional players to not only help them play in great conditions but groom them to become champions in every way?

I say in this way yes its easier for the snooker player to make a transition but it is why the Americans will always be tough to deal with. Take a look at Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, Cory Deuel, Buddy Hall, these guys made it on their own. No higher institution of learning but they all have professorships of the Road. They made it playing all night sessions in some smokey back room crossing the country living in dumps and still came out on top. Let a snooker player live that life and see if they come up on top.

Thats why I say you cant compare the two. Pool is a way of life as well and now it is entering into a more organized business like field. Things will have to change. And it has with young guns coming out of the Mark Wilson schools like Justin Bergman and Shane Van Boening with a family background in the sport. Yes snooker players can make the transition but you have to understand why. American pool players are going to have to learn that there are other ways besides the road if they want to compete on an international level. But it is the American ingenuity and confidence in the self that will overcome.

Right now I am sitting in my hotel room in Louisville reminding of myself who originated from this environment. Muhammed Ali himself. Arguably the greatest boxer of all time. And he did this on his own will and dedication and passion. I think that in becoming succesful in anything you must have that. I think we can compete with anyone because of it.

We're def getting closer. I tend to think one of the main differences is that Snooker players (and uk pool players for that matter) PRACTISE hours a day, gambling is NOT the same as practising. Of course I am a strong beleiver that you need both but I think many a Pro pool player won't get his cue out of his bag unless its for cash.

WHy is this? because sadly the incentive for pool players to put in 8 hours a day practice like the Snooker counterparts just isn't there, the money sucks, and there's no "pro card" to protect! Like Raybo said the IPT god bless it got that bit right. If it had taken off I think top level pool would have become much more competitive.

This is the point that (don't take this the wrong way) is often missed by folks on the other side of the pond that don't realise how competitive Snooker is. The best way to think of it is almost like Golf in the USA. OK so there's not really a similar golf sport to make a good analogy for conversion the the level of SNooker competition is just as fierce. Making a 100 break in Snooker is about as far away from becoming Snooker world Champion as running a rack of 9 ball is to beating Efren at rotation! Every leage in every town in the country has guys who run them daily.

I also think nationality gets in the way of logic in these debates, as memkey said if the likes of Appleton, Peach, Grey, Hill, Boyes etc couldn't make it and would probably admit they have no chance of converting now what makes so many people upset when the same point is made about overseas players?

As for longer races, of course this would help the "pool player", I'd never back against the pool player if it was a break significant game, 14.1 though if they put the effort in to learn the game I'd give them a chance.

 

[TheOne]

well now thinking about it there are two seperate issues here then.

snooker players competing with pool players at longer race pool matches, perhaps challenge games.

and snooker players competing in professional pool tournaments.


i do agree it's easier for them to compete in pool tournaments than the other way around.

but i don't agree that it's easier for them to compete in a challenge match, or any format which doesn't give the better player the opportunity to come out ahead.

not trying to be nit-picky or anything but it seems after 21 pages there are actually two points being debated, and ultimately mixed up and confused.

I agree, however if Snooker was a race to 25 and pool was a race to 50 and they played 100 times...I still think there is much much more chance that the pool player would lose a few sets than visa versa. The pool player should of course come out on top though.

 

[predator]

Shorter races at pool than at snooker help, yes...especially at beginning of their transition. But one has to be aware that pool is a massive sport with lots of competitors and tournaments need to finish in a reasonable time frame. Of course none of snooker stars could beat John or Efren in a race to 1000 in 14.1, nobody suggests that, but...let's face it...tournament format races and big 9ball tournament results is all that matters in a world of pool today. Any player who is able to run racks and is strong under pressure could win the big one. It could even be one of converted snooker guys. If that is hard to accept, then it's better not to be a part of it.

I mean take a look at one of the most skillful 9ballers of today, Yang Ching Shun. Many people say he is the most feared competitor in money matches, and that in a very long match very few could take him down. He has proved that by beating Orcullo in a race to 60 in Manila.
But where is his World Championship crown? I'm sure he would prefer to be called World Champion rather than to have only bragging rights about beating top Filipino money player. If I were him, I'd be extremely frustrated with the fact that a 16 year old kid from his country won the big title in 2005., and he who is a much better player didn't.
He may be the best 9baller in the world and may still never win the WC. In a single race to 11 he could easily lose to an inferior player, but so what? This is what make pool exciting. It would be extremely boring if the most skillful player won every time.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

I think you are getting much of the things QH said confused with what I have said. I do respect pool, I probably love it more than Snooker. However I think the facts cleary show that its easier for Snooker players to make the conversion than visa versa. I do however understand how these debates come across as elitist and how defensive it makes pool players.

Ex Snooker player Manalo btw didn't do too bad in his fist ever 14.1 events in NJ.

As a side note...
I've always thought 14.1 on a 10ft tight table would be the ultimate test, American style equipent.

I'm curious:

a) Who would you back if you matched up a Filipino top player who has NEVER played 14.1 against QH?
b) Would JS still be heavy favourite if the match up was made under these conditions?

Marlon Manalo was always MAINLY a pool player, but he had a passion for Snooker, and played it as often as he could. He was never mainly a snooker player. How do I know this? Marlon told me himself.

Yes, it is easier for a snooker player to make an adjustment to POOL ITSELF. Than it is for a pool player to become mainly a snooker player. There are different styles in mechanics in pool, most of them not textbook, that the pro players use because it BENEFITS them in some way. In snooker there is one general type of fundamentals, where IMO it would hinder a snooker player rather than help one at pool.

The main contrasting style of great pool players, is they play very loose. Very relaxed and smooth strokes, most of the time. A snooker player tries to emulate a robot. Why do you ask? Because in snooker there is very little creativity. In pool with the bigger pockets and more advanced games (in some aspects), ALOT more things can be done with the cueball (and object balls). I honestly think that one thing that would cause snooker players problems when they try to turn pool pros, is their lack of creativity, and the lack of a style that is suited to creativity.

 

[Alan Morris]

It is 6 x 12. That is where the similarity ends. It is clearly not a snooker table. You can fire a ball in from any angle at any speed on a snooker table. The only requirement is increased accuracy at increased speed, with zero margin of error along the cushion. The Bellflower table is just a tricked up gambling table. Believe me, there are plenty of defective tables every bit as hard as your fabled Bellflower table in ropey clubs over here. Pockets that will not take a ball at any speed along the cushion for instance, incorrectly cut or with too much rubber. They spit them out like pinball machines. There is little fun to be had on them.

Boro Nut

I've played on one of the snooker tables at Hard Times and you are right that it's not set-up for playing snooker.

I practise on a match snooker table and if you are accurate enough from any position the ball should be potable, but that's not possible at Hard Times.

Alan.

 

[Alan Morris]

Over in England they have the Pontins International Open Series. This is the ticket to the pro tour. Basically there is 8 tournaments that I think anyone can enter and at the end of it the top 8 (i think) players in the points get on the pro tour with the chance to qualify for the big TV tournaments and all the cash. Any jam up young pool player over here who wants to have a go (SVB?) would have to take this route. The problem is this means a lot of time in England and a huge expence with no real guarantees although a guy like SVB could probably play on the Euro Tour when he is over there. The reality is that anybody wanting to try this would have to have sponsorship and would really have to give up pool and immerse themself into snooker. The standard in these qualifiers is scary high but I would love to see someone from here try. Hey if you can hit a 70 you can take a game from anyone

Hi Ray,

There is another route to get on the professional Main Tour for any interested American players.

Win the United States National Snooker Championship and they would be selected to represent the United States in the IBSF World Snooker Championship.

Then win the IBSF World Snooker Championship where they would automatically be awarded a place on the Main Tour.

Best wishes.

Alan.

 

[Alan Morris]

I have personally played on three types of 12' tables: Brunswick, Black Crown, and Riley. Without question the Riley was the hardest to pocket balls on. The pockets are very tight. The BC was a joke. The Brunswick I learned to play on can't be like the ones you are talking about Fatboy because I have run a century and countless 90's on it and I found it easy to pot balls on but rather slow in its play so a harder stroke made some shots very tough. The rails on this Brunswick were square whereas the BC were more like those typically found on a pool table and triangular.

At the Canadian Snooker Championships they had Riley's and Alain Robidoux was complaining the pockets were too tight yet someone still ran 117! Wow.

PS: Alain is still playing and playing great! He has also turned his career on the table into a partial career commentating on RDS a French sportscaster from Quebec. Really nice guy too.

Alain was part of the Canadian snooker team in Las Vegas that took on the American snooker team in last year's Can-Am Snooker Challenge.

The United States won 12-8.

Best wishes.

Alan

 

[Alan Morris]

Ok I think 3 of all just pretty much said the same thing. It is true that no pool player has made it to the top in snooker but for the life of me I can't think of one that has ever tried. Do not mention Mizerak and Rempe, they put no time into it and they fell for every trick in the book regarding safety and tactics. Somebody take Landen Shuffett or Austin Murphy and send them over there for 5 or 6 years and then we can end this. Seriously though snooker is a brutally tough way to make a living, more now than ever before. The prizemoney is too top heavy and if you do not make an immediate impact you just fall back off the tour and then you have to qualify all over again. It is tough if you are English. If I was a young American phenom knowing what I know now there is no way I would even consider it, not the way snooker is set up right now. If anybody here knows any of the Canadian guys (Wych, Chaperon Finstad, Morra etc) they would give you a great insight as to how tough it really is.

Hi Ray,

I actually met and played a couple of frames of snooker with Austin Murphy in Las Vegas least year, and although I beat him pretty comfortably I was very impressed with his play and attitude towards the game.

He really did enjoy playing snooker and told me he would like to play more. He could have some potential in the game, but he needs to devote a lot of time to it starting now.

Best wishes.

Alan.

 

[Cameron Smith]

At the Canadian Snooker Championships they had Riley's and Alain Robidoux was complaining the pockets were too tight yet someone still ran 117! Wow.

I heard that too. It was rather dissapointing that the pockets were so tight. From a spectators point of view, I want to see big breaks, instead the best I saw was a 48.

 

[raybo147]

Hi Ray,

There is another route to get on the professional Main Tour for any interested American players.

Win the United States National Snooker Championship and they would be selected to represent the United States in the IBSF World Snooker Championship.

Then win the IBSF World Snooker Championship where they would automatically be awarded a place on the Main Tour.

Best wishes.

Alan.

Alan it is good to hear from you on here, this thread got pretty involved a couple of weeks ago and I think you would have enjoyed getting in on the action. I do know about the World Amateurs and I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread (it would take to long to go back and check!). One year I would love to practice up and snap off the Nationals but I run a Landscape supply company and I live on the east coast so CA in May is totally out of the question for me. Unfortunately there is no good tables here anymore as the one in Drexeline is gone and the one in Rackemup is in pretty bad shape so there is no chance for snooker in Philly.

 

[Alan Morris]

Alan it is good to hear from you on here, this thread got pretty involved a couple of weeks ago and I think you would have enjoyed getting in on the action. I do know about the World Amateurs and I think I mentioned it earlier in this thread (it would take to long to go back and check!). One year I would love to practice up and snap off the Nationals but I run a Landscape supply company and I live on the east coast so CA in May is totally out of the question for me. Unfortunately there is no good tables here anymore as the one in Drexeline is gone and the one in Rackemup is in pretty bad shape so there is no chance for snooker in Philly.

Hey Ray,

I apologise for not keeping up on the forum, as I should do. I have been very busy with my snooker career but I will try and keep up with you guys on here. I knocked in a maximum 147 break in a couple of months ago during an exhibition match in England, so thankfully I am in pretty good form!

So there is no snooker in Drexeline anymore? How far away are you from Baltimore? As I know there is a gentleman there in the process of setting up a small snooker club due to the high demand for the game there.

It's a great shame that you won't be available for the Nationals in May this year, but hopefully we can arrange to meet up sometime for a few frames.

With my best wishes.

Alan.