New safety rule

[Slide Rule]

I know not of what you speak? I've heard of the rule, but I can say I've NEVER played 3 foul wins in my entire life. So, my answer had nothing to do with 10b. So, I'm inclinded to agree with you, I don't like that rule at all. I'm speaking of where safties come into play the most with league players, which is 8ball.

I have played 3 foul wins in league. 9 ball.

My buddy suggested I safe my opponent. I thought he meant 3 safe him.

Which I did and won.

Afterward my opponent came over to where I was sitting pushed me in both
shoulders and said. Just shoot the fvking balls.

Knowing just how well he liked safeties. That was what he saw from me.
Every time.

Actually his kicking game improved. I was just helping his game.


Another opponent successfully kicked out of 8 consecutive safes. A very
good kicker. But all the kicking took him out of his game.


If there is a 3 foul rule. By all means use the safe. And when you think you
have him, play one more for good measure.


I would not endorse a 3 foul rule in 8 ball. Much too easy. But if it were there,
I would use it until the various captains made a change.

 

[YubaCushion]

No, I'm sarcastic in person, too.

Having to take a shot before playing a safe.. srsly? So, i lock you up then you have to try shooting from there and can't play a return safe? Let me know when and where and I'll round up every last penny i can get my hands on. I safe, you give up ball in hand or take a flyer, i make a shot and safe or run out and rinse n repeat. Brilliant idea.

That could go both ways, and you prabably wont make every shot. A game could even start out with one a piece. Just trying out ideas. I have a buddy lives in Salem, next time I visit him I 'll get on the boards and we'll play.

 

[Masayoshi]

If the game is 10-ball why does someone get to win on 3 safeties but can't win when they make 3 balls, unless they're the last 3? The problem is not the safeties. The problem is the rule that you can win with 3 safeties. That's the only reason someone is referring to safeties as "powerful". It's because the rules make them so.

If a safety was just ball in hand safeties would be much less powerful and more in balance with actually making shots and making position. That would deflate annoying players who spend the whole first half of the rack trying to achieve 3-fouls on you when there are plenty of balls to hide behind rather than going for open shots and trying for a run.

That's exactly what I've been putting up with against someone I've been playing 10-ball with recently. For some reason he thinks he's better than me even though I'm winning 2 out of 3 sets consistently even with his stupid safeties. It doesn't take a lot of talent to pop the 1-ball up table and hide the cue ball behind a cluster. I kick pretty well and just used that for a while, along with playing safeties back. Also, it's using the rules, too, to just turn around and lock up balls instead of trying to escape the safety. I also stopped passing up combos on the 10 like I used to because I didn't used to want a quick win, I wanted to try for a run.

But the end result is that I got tired of it and decided to focus and win more and then rub it in so he'll be less willing to play with me. Because I don't develop my skills as fast as I want to playing against an opponent like this. I can learn to play safeties all by myself. I don't need an opponent at the table.

The 3 foul rule is enacted in rotation games because it prevents stalemates. It is also a much more difficult feat to make an A player foul 3 consecutive times than it is to run out most racks, thus a player who is able to do so is awarded a win. At high levels, 3 foul only comes up once every couple hundred racks (although the threat of a 3 foul might change shot selection a little more often than that). Getting ball in hand is usually sufficient to win the rack without playing 2 more safeties in hopes that your opponent fouls.

C players benefit the most from going after 3 fouls because they aren't likely to run out if they try and their competition is not likely to hit the ball, much less make it or return the safe. Players who are tired of having 3 foul come up often need only raise their level of play.

 

[CreeDo]

I don't think any game would be improved by making safeties 'earned' or 'limited ammo',
but we're just playing hypotheticals here.

To add an element of randomness (and possibly fun??) to 9b/10b, you could make it so that
only certain balls allow safeties. Like you can only safe on the 1, 4, or 7.
Everything else must be 'honest effort'.

That's one major reason you won't ever see such a rule work... lots of chances to play 'accidental' safeties
and claim you were going for a certain shot.

 

[YubaCushion]

I'm sure it's probably an unquestionable fact that anyone who disagrees with you must play at a lower level than you.

However, the particular person whose safeties I find annoying is still losing the sets to me at a ratio of about 2 - 1 and he generally flubs the safeties when there are less than six balls on the table. I think the real problem is that he's been playing snooker and pool probably ten times longer than me and owns a cue that cost ten times more than mine. So, just as several others have admitted in this thread, he tries to put me on tilt by playing safeties like a broken record, i.e., look for the easy way out.

Bob..Dix..On! Bob..Dix..On! Bob..Dix..On!

 

[alstl]

I like safeties and dislike the jump cue for the same reason. Safeties and the ability to kick separate the players and allow the cream to rise to the top.

 

[YubaCushion]

I have nothing against jumping but I can understand why people don't like the jump.

 

[swest]

And the most exciting part that got the loudest applause was............the shot, not the safety's
Winning by forcing a guy to foul out, WOW!

Watch snooker some time and see where you get some of the loudest applause.

In fact, that may be a good recommendation for you. Watch a well-played snooker match and you may begin to better appreciate both the difficulty and beauty of good safety play.

 

[BRussell]

That's one major reason you won't ever see such a rule work... lots of chances to play 'accidental' safeties and claim you were going for a certain shot.

That's exactly the problem with being opposed to safeties. For some good players, almost every shot is two-way. To take the OP's idea to its logical conclusion, after a miss you'd have to give the incoming player the option to keep the table or give it back. That would be necessary, I think, if you want to limit safeties.

Or you could just play a purely offensive game like Equal Offense or Fargo, where if you miss, you're done.

I don't know why you'd want to remove one of the most interesting and strategic elements of the game, but to each his own.

 

[krupa]

I hear what everybody is saying. Actions speak louder than words, and there is no denying when you are in a hall and are waiting for a table or taking a break from practicing you can look around and follow the excitement hear the cheers, and feel good energy. The cheers ooh's and ah's are because of great shots. There is another sound, the sigh of relief. That sound can be heard when someone makes a safety. Sometimes a cheer if it saves a game. I have seen really good players and not so good players play friends for fun and in tournaments. I've seen more smiles and better games in friendly play (yes,with defense) that tournament play. Leave the tables with pockets for the shooters and the defense first players can play nine ball on a carom table. That way you can block shots all day and you save time never having to rack.

You stole my line!

As my opponent, your opinion is irrelevant to me. I will play my game and let you play your game. If you get pissy because you think I should be taking shots instead of playing safe, that's your problem not mine.

 

[Banks]

I don't know why you'd want to remove one of the most interesting and strategic elements of the game, but to each his own.

Most of the time, people will argue against safeties when they aren't that good at them. Otherwise, it is usually a carry-over from the bar style mentallity where you must "go for" a shot. Even that is questionable, since many times the shot turns into a two-way where the leave is their primary goal.

Now that I've got a keyboard in front of me.. the reasons I can see for "excess" safeties would be:

1) Frustrate the opponent
2) Player doesn't have much of a plan, if any, other than hoping the opponent will take a flyer and break up a problem they can't deal with
3) Player is insecure with their shooting vs their opponent

I'd be more willing to get into a safety battle with opponents around my level or better than I am to get into a shooting match.

Some people safety for the BiH, others to stop their opponent, but a real good safety will move for a better arrangement of the table. I'd say just about every single week in league that I would see people play "safeties" that actually make the table more difficult for themselves - pushing a ball to a rail that's blocked, clustering their own balls, moving a ball further away from a pocket, etc.

 

[YubaCushion]

I HAVE PRAISED GOOD DEFENSE. I HAVE A DEEP APPREACTION OF DEFENSE.
I USE SAFETY'S. It is a "part" of the game. When they (safety's) "become" the game that's where the issue is. Just watched The 2012 Earl and Shane match 10 ball on 10ft table. Less safety's were played than I would have. Games that are based on defense ok I get it. Why is it that when someone questions a type of play it turns into "If you knew how to play... then you would understand..." Watch the best players on utube, espn what ever. There making shots, not hiding behind safety's. Use safe play as a tool not as a crutch

 

[ideologist]

I don't think any game would be improved by making safeties 'earned' or 'limited ammo',
but we're just playing hypotheticals here.

To add an element of randomness (and possibly fun??) to 9b/10b, you could make it so that
only certain balls allow safeties. Like you can only safe on the 1, 4, or 7.
Everything else must be 'honest effort'.

That's one major reason you won't ever see such a rule work... lots of chances to play 'accidental' safeties
and claim you were going for a certain shot.

Two-way shots are high art, indeed.

 

[Banks]

I HAVE PRAISED GOOD DEFENSE. I HAVE A DEEP APPREACTION OF DEFENSE.
I USE SAFETY'S. It is a "part" of the game. When they (safety's) "become" the game that's where the issue is. Just watched The 2012 Earl and Shane match 10 ball on 10ft table. Less safety's were played than I would have. Games that are based on defense ok I get it. Why is it that when someone questions a type of play it turns into "If you knew how to play... then you would understand..." Watch the best players on utube, espn what ever. There making shots, not hiding behind safety's. Use safe play as a tool not as a crutch

The way the initial post was phrased seemed to be on the offensive towards defensive plays.

Two top pros aren't going to play many safeties on average. They can run out from underneath the table, that's why they're top pros. One man's crutch is another man's tool and vice versa. I've seen my fair share of matches that drug on forever because of worthless, repeated safeties. That's not very often, though.

If you don't want people to think you're getting in a tizzy over safeties, you probably would be better off not saying things like "not hiding behind safety's". How many racks can you regularly run without missing?

 

[YubaCushion]

You stole my line!

As my opponent, your opinion is irrelevant to me. I will play my game and let you play your game. If you get pissy because you think I should be taking shots instead of playing safe, that's your problem not mine.

How ever somebody plays is fine. I don't expect anybody to play any different. If you cant make shots and your not as good as the person you are playing, you have to do what it takes. I started out playing in halls not bars. I know all defense guys have to think what they are doing is based in skill and not based on the fact they cant make shots.
Makes you feel good about the way you play. I get it.Playing defense is easier, at least to me. Look at the pros. They play shots, and when they can't then they play safe. I started out playing defense. It works but "to much" makes the game boring. I think if more people played like he pros the game would be better and more fun for all.

 

[Banks]

I think if more people played like he pros the game would be better and more fun for all.

For sheets and giggles, let's just say you've lost on this statement..



Either that, or you're just trying to bait me into thinking that you really have no idea how to play and plan on coming to PDX to take me off. It's working.

 

[YubaCushion]

The way the initial post was phrased seemed to be on the offensive towards defensive plays.

Two top pros aren't going to play many safeties on average. They can run out from underneath the table, that's why they're top pros. One man's crutch is another man's tool and vice versa. I've seen my fair share of matches that drug on forever because of worthless, repeated safeties. That's not very often, though.

If you don't want people to think you're getting in a tizzy over safeties, you probably would be better off not saying things like "not hiding behind safety's". How many racks can you regularly run without missing?

No tizzy, not upset. It's like someone driving 55 in the fast lane and them saying it's within the rules. Ok, I'll go around no problem enjoy your day. But don't get defensive act like you don't belong in the slow lane. That's all.

 

[Banks]

No tizzy, not upset. It's like someone driving 55 in the fast lane and them saying it's within the rules. Ok, I'll go around no problem enjoy your day. But don't get defensive act like you don't belong in the slow lane. That's all.

I'm a "75 in the 55" kind of person. Probably comes from living in CA when I got my license.

I'll ask my question again, though. How many racks do you run when you play?

You think safety playing is boring. To me, nothing is more boring than a safety-less game. From the break, you can usually tell who's going to win those. Unless, of course, they don't know how to play.

You got defensive real quick when people asked if you knew how to play. You started countering with saying they didn't know how to shoot, etc. So, what've you got? I'm guessing you're about an APA 5 or 6 speed.

 

[YubaCushion]

For sheets and giggles, let's just say you've lost on this statement..

View attachment 277688

Either that, or you're just trying to bait me into thinking that you really have no idea how to play and plan on coming to PDX to take me off. It's working.

Ok that was not the best. They just seen classier about play. Respectful of the game and how it should be played. That's what I meant.

 

[Banks]

Ok that was not the best. They just seen classier about play. Respectful of the game and how it should be played. That's what I meant.

Not everybody has the same skill set. For example, I've seen players that shoot better than myself, or at least from what I could see. The difference is, they have no idea of strategy and I'll take them down by the bushel. I don't safety for safety purposes. There may have been a time when I did something like that, because I didn't realize what I was doing, but proper play is about doing what you can do, not doing what others think you should do.

Edit: The way I always saw it was; If I can safety up on you and give myself another shot, those additional shots will help me become a better shot-maker. If I'm selling out on trying to shoot everything off the table, I'm not going to get to shoot much more.