No Aiming System?

Player A: "How do you aim?"

Player B: "I'm really not sure. I just see the shot and shoot it."

A: "So it's like a subconscious thing, automatic, right?"

B: "Probably so. After doing anything for a long time it gets to be automatic. Sort of like riding a bike or signing your name. You don't really think about it, you just do it."

A: "You probably don't even have to look at the balls, do you? I mean, I bet you can shoot with your eyes closed."

B: "Uh....what? Why would you think that? Of course I have to look at the balls. It's not magic....it's memory. You should read a book on how the brain works in conjunction with the basic senses. We're always consciously gathering information through our senses, that means seeing, hearing, touching... you know.....and this information connects to deeper areas of the brain, that subconscious thing you mentioned. This is where all of our learned skills are stored, like programs that automatically run when triggered by an input, like seeing a certain shot on a pool table."

A: "Blah blah blah.....so can you shoot with your eyes closed or not?"

B: "Read a book about learning, or how memory works. It might do wonders for your game."
 
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Playing pool for 26 years has done wonders for my game. Taking lessons from Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, and Ron Vitello boosted my game immensely.
They all teach AIMING among other things and were/are world known for their professional instruction.

I have a great memory and don't need to read any books about memory. My memory of how I played prior to these lessons is I "thought" I was a strong player but had no idea what I was missing until taking those lessons and learning what the eyes could see and were supposed to see. What I also learned from them as well as 2 1/2 decades of playing is, there is NOTHING automatic in this game even for the top pro players. I've missed and seen them miss BIH 9" from a pocket. Shots a blind person could make. Automatic aiming?? What a bunch of crap garbage! Can it be done? Yes to an extent but not when big money is at stake. If the outcome of the game doesn't mean very much if anything, who cares. Fire away!

All pool players should try it. Or just stay happy where they are. Probably in a
NON-AIMING FORUM.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Playing pool for 26 years has done wonders for my game. Taking lessons from Hal Houle, Stan Shuffett, Joe Tucker, and Ron Vitello boosted my game immensely.
They all teach AIMING among other things and were/are world known for their professional instruction.

I have a great memory and don't need to read any books about memory. My memory of how I played prior to these lessons is I "thought" I was a strong player but had no idea what I was missing until taking those lessons and learning what the eyes could see and were supposed to see.

All pool players should try it. Or just stay happy where they are. Probably in a
NON-AIMING FORUM.
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Player "A" needs to learn how the brain functions, not you. I think every pool player AIMS, but it's not always easy to explain it to someone else. Sure, if a system was pursued and used then it's pretty simply to say "I do this...", and therefore maybe teach the same system to another player.

Many players have learned and still learn simply by shooting the CB to a spot that looks like it'll send the OB to the pocket. This is simple visuals, not imagining contact points or ghostballs or fractional aim points or cte lines......just looking and shooting, trial and error, which pretty much works as well as ghostball and could probably be considered ghostball anyway. But this style, which was how I learned to pocket balls, is slow learning and not easily explained because there is no system process to explain or show. So I'm all for system processes to help players learn or improve, and to eventually develop a natural sense of pocketing balls, like signing your name.
 
BC21 said:
Player "A" needs to learn how the brain functions, not you.

Learning how the brain functions is NOT a prerequisite for playing pool. Take any great player from Mosconi, to Efren, to Shane and they have never studied the brain and how it functions. They just played pool. And they aimed.

I think every pool player AIMS, but it's not always easy to explain it to someone else.

It can be and is.

Sure, if a system was pursued and used then it's pretty simply to say "I do this...", and therefore maybe teach the same system to another player.

The most used by everyone, pros included, is contact point. Not a thing wrong with it.

Many players have learned and still learn simply by shooting the CB to a spot that looks like it'll send the OB to the pocket.

How was their development and how long did it take? To put any player on a fast track to improvement requires pin point FOCUS, not vague guesswork.

This is simple visuals, not imagining contact points or ghostballs or fractional aim points or cte lines......just looking and shooting, trial and error,
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EVERYTHING is simple once it's internalized. I've played many hours with Allen and all he does is see the spot on the OB - CONTACT POINT.
Let me say it again, CONTACT POINT!! But he sees it in a couple of milliseconds and doesn't need to obsess over it. He knows what to aim to.

Same can be said of fractions, A, B, C or anything else. Once trained, milliseconds.
Automatic? Sure it's automatic AFTER you SEE IT. Doesn't mean it's negated.
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
EVERYTHING is simple once it's internalized. I've played many hours with Allen and all he does is see the spot on the OB - CONTACT POINT.
Let me say it again, CONTACT POINT!! But he sees it in a couple of milliseconds and doesn't need to obsess over it. He knows what to aim to.

Same can be said of fractions, A, B, C or anything else. Once trained, milliseconds.
Automatic? Sure it's automatic AFTER you SEE IT. Doesn't mean it's negated.
Click to expand...

I haven't seen anyone negate the use of vision. Lol.

And much like your hypothetical conversation between Aimer and non-Aimer, in which you said it was for entertainment only and doesn't require a response of any kind, my more realistic hypothetical conversation was posted in the same manner, yet without the disclaimer.

And you are correct, there is prerequisite for any pool player to have to read anything on how the brain learns and stores info. Most pros are proof of that. They've t
trained themselves through countless hours of practice. But understanding how the brain functions can provide s player with much more effective practice sessions, reducing the amount of time it might take to reach a new level of play.

Regardless, it was a hypothetical conversation between player A, the silly one that suggested subconscious meant one could perform with their eyes closed, and player B, the one that pointed out some reading material that may enlighten player A's knowledge of skill learning.
 
BC21 said:
I haven't seen anyone negate the use of vision. Lol.

And much like your hypothetical conversation between Aimer and non-Aimer, in which you said it was for entertainment only and doesn't require a response of any kind, my more realistic hypothetical conversation was posted in the same manner, yet without the disclaimer.

And you are correct, there is prerequisite for any pool player to have to read anything on how the brain learns and stores info. Most pros are proof of that. They've t
trained themselves through countless hours of practice. But understanding how the brain functions can provide s player with much more effective practice sessions, reducing the amount of time it might take to reach a new level of play.

Regardless, it was a hypothetical conversation between player A, the silly one that suggested subconscious meant one could perform with their eyes closed, and player B, the one that pointed out some reading material that may enlighten player A's knowledge of skill learning.
Click to expand...

You need to read The Inner Game Of Tennis or The Inner Game Of Golf. The Inner Game Of Golf is more applicable because you have time between shots where in tennis it’s reactionary to the ball coming over the net. It’s about the subconscious. Forget all of that other malarkey. It clogs up your brain, arteries and bowels.
 
Player A, the non-aimer who says he doesn't have an aiming system nor can explain anything about how he aims is in a fairly hefty money match.

Doesn't matter what his skill level is. Let's just say he's not a pro player, not a roadie, not a shortstop. But playing against someone else who is about the same or a little better.

Player B, the aimer who has an aiming system knows exactly how he aims and can explain it because he took personal lessons with Joe Tucker on contact point aiming, purchased the training balls and grid layout, and practiced it for hours daily over a one year period to reach new levels.

He is also in a hefty money match with someone else who is about the same or a little better.

With all the money on the line in a final game when the nerves or jangling because of the size of the bet which would hurt all of them, the asshole puckering, a little shaking in the hands from nerves, and adrenaline flowing like lava throughout their bodies, which one do you think might be better able to pull it off with a bad table layout and 3 tough cuts left to finish the match off or lose?

The NON-AIMER or the AIMER? What does common sense say to you rather than wordsmithing and coming out with more bullshit?

If it's Player A, why?

If it's Player B, well the answer is more clear. He knows how to aim and can pour every bit of his FOCUS into visually lining up the shot to do what he has done over and over in practice to make them on a regular basis.

Lets face it, either of them or both could get the yips and flinch the stroke. But who would probably have the edge in their match? The aimer or non-aimer?

What would the odds makers and betting people say?
 
Brookeland Bill said:
You need to read The Inner Game Of Tennis or The Inner Game Of Golf. The Inner Game Of Golf is more applicable because you have time between shots where in tennis it’s reactionary to the ball coming over the net. It’s about the subconscious. Forget all of that other malarkey. It clogs up your brain, arteries and bowels.
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I read it. I wasn't impressed nor did it make me want to do any of it. It was more like psychological mumbo jumbo to give one hope. More of a "feel good" book.

Lets go back to the pros, how many of them read either of those books and had it make a big influence on their games?

Here's how many read one of those books - ZERO!!
 
Brookeland Bill said:
You need to read The Inner Game Of Tennis or The Inner Game Of Golf. The Inner Game Of Golf is more applicable because you have time between shots where in tennis it’s reactionary to the ball coming over the net. It’s about the subconscious. Forget all of that other malarkey. It clogs up your brain, arteries and bowels.
Click to expand...

I've read the inner game of tennis, years ago when I was playing a lot of tennis.

There is no malarkey when it comes to learning. There is either an efficient way to learn or an inefficient way. Having given music lessons for years, I've seen my share of super-quick learners, people that pick it up as easily as opening a door. I just assumed they were creative types like myself.

I got on a reading kick a few years ago and just couldn't get enough, especially on the subject of learning and how the brain stores and recalls memory and acquired knowledge. To do any skill at an excellent level, there must be a good working relationship between conscious input and subconscience feedback. Knowing this does not clog up your brain. In fact, I'd say mine is pretty fine-tuned.:grin:
 
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BC21 said:
I've read the inner game of tennis, years ago when I was playing a lot of tennis.

There is no malarkey when it comes to learning. There is either an efficient way to learn or an inefficient way. Having given music lessons for years, I've seen my share of super-quick learners, people that pick it up as easily as opening a door. I just assumed they were creative types like myself.

I got on a reading kick a few years ago and just couldn't get enough, especially on the subject of learning and how the brain stores and recalls memory and acquired knowledge. To do any skill at an excellent level, there must be a good working relationship conscious input and subconscience feedback. Knowing this does not clog up your brain. In fact, I'd say mine is pretty fine-tuned.:grin:
Click to expand...

I started playing in 1960...no instructor...no videos...no books...and taught myself by trial and error...in other words I learned by playing, winning and losing...since then I’ve watched and read all the crappola out there and tried all of it once or twice and keep going back to where I started...if you don’t have the vey basics then forgetaboutit...you can shoot all the 1/4–1/2–3/4 ball shots until hell freezes over but if you don’t have touch or feel for the game you might as well just accept the fact you will be a league player for the rest of your life...
 
Brookeland Bill said:
You need to read The Inner Game Of Tennis or The Inner Game Of Golf. The Inner Game Of Golf is more applicable because you have time between shots where in tennis it’s reactionary to the ball coming over the net. It’s about the subconscious. Forget all of that other malarkey. It clogs up your brain, arteries and bowels.
Click to expand...


The Inner Game of Tennis theory did not help you improve. It just let you bang the ball around at whatever level you were at.

Lou Figueroa
 
Brookeland Bill said:
I started playing in 1960...no instructor...no videos...no books...and taught myself by trial and error...in other words I learned by playing, winning and losing...since then I’ve watched and read all the crappola out there and tried all of it once or twice and keep going back to where I started...if you don’t have the vey basics then forgetaboutit...you can shoot all the 1/4–1/2–3/4 ball shots until hell freezes over but if you don’t have touch or feel for the game you might as well just accept the fact you will be a league player for the rest of your life...
Click to expand...


This is quite true... to a certain extent. You can be helped along the path a bit but some guys just don't, and will never, have it.

Lou Figueroa
 
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Low500 said:
Nope, you do not have to accept that. Unless you choose to place a limit on yourself through a self-fulfilling prophecy.
By the way, it is not a fact. It is a value statement...merely an opinion.
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Some (many) guys, will never rise above a certain level. I have seen it time and time again. And some of these guys want it bad.

Make no mistake -- they want it -- but cannot, and will never, achieve it.

Lou Figueroa
it ain't
for everybody
 
Brookeland Bill said:
I started playing in 1960...no instructor...no videos...no books...and taught myself by trial and error...in other words I learned by playing, winning and losing...since then I’ve watched and read all the crappola out there and tried all of it once or twice and keep going back to where I started...if you don’t have the vey basics then forgetaboutit...you can shoot all the 1/4–1/2–3/4 ball shots until hell freezes over but if you don’t have touch or feel for the game you might as well just accept the fact you will be a league player for the rest of your life...
Click to expand...

I'm right there with you, another 20+ years or so later, learned the same way. Learned piano, drums, and guitar the same way also, taught myself because there was no one near my little town that gave lessons, and mom and dad wouldnt have been able to afford lessons anyway.

And I agree that a player needs a feel for the game, a feel or touch for the shots. I know you said you had my book, but you must have skipped the words where I wrote that the primary purpose of the book is to help a player develop a feel, to be able to just see a shot and automatically know how to shoot it. :thumbup:

The
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Player A, the non-aimer who says he doesn't have an aiming system nor can explain anything about how he aims is in a fairly hefty money match.

Doesn't matter what his skill level is. Let's just say he's not a pro player, not a roadie, not a shortstop. But playing against someone else who is about the same or a little better.

Player B, the aimer who has an aiming system knows exactly how he aims and can explain it because he took personal lessons with Joe Tucker on contact point aiming, purchased the training balls and grid layout, and practiced it for hours daily over a one year period to reach new levels.

He is also in a hefty money match with someone else who is about the same or a little better.

With all the money on the line in a final game when the nerves or jangling because of the size of the bet which would hurt all of them, the asshole puckering, a little shaking in the hands from nerves, and adrenaline flowing like lava throughout their bodies, which one do you think might be better able to pull it off with a bad table layout and 3 tough cuts left to finish the match off or lose?

The NON-AIMER or the AIMER? What does common sense say to you rather than wordsmithing and coming out with more bullshit?

If it's Player A, why?

If it's Player B, well the answer is more clear. He knows how to aim and can pour every bit of his FOCUS into visually lining up the shot to do what he has done over and over in practice to make them on a regular basis.

Lets face it, either of them or both could get the yips and flinch the stroke. But who would probably have the edge in their match? The aimer or non-aimer?

What would the odds makers and betting people say?
Click to expand...

Lol. 3 tough cuts? How bad are these players? I'd lay my money on the one that shoots the 1st tough cut and gets shape on the last two. I'm not betting on any player that's struggling to win with upside-down runouts on the last 3. But for free, no wager, I'd favor the player with the most natural approach, the one that looks like he/she has a good feel or touch for the game, despite the lack of a well-developed position game. I wouldn't care one bit if one or the other or none was using any aiming system, as long as they didn't look like some robot trying to line up for shots. In that case, I'd pick the other player.
 
BC21 said:
Lol. 3 tough cuts? How bad are these players?

They're regular players. But sometimes, just sometimes, the balls are laid out so funky on the rails with the CB in no position to move it hard with spin to get to the next ball without a good chance of missing. Lets just say they aren't PROS like you who can do anything on the table like Corey Deuel. Maybe the best thing would be to play a safety, but that could prove to be a disaster even more than attempting the shots.

I'd lay my money on the one that shoots the 1st tough cut and gets shape on the last two.

If possible, but see above.

I'm not betting on any player that's struggling to win with upside-down runouts on the last 3. But for free, no wager, I'd favor the player with the most natural approach, the one that looks like he/she has a good feel or touch for the game, despite the lack of a well-developed position game. I wouldn't care one bit if one or the other or none was using any aiming system, as long as they didn't look like some robot trying to line up for shots. In that case, I'd pick the other player.
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Skilled players whether amateurs or pros who use aiming systems don't look like robots, EVER. All they are is more FOCUSED in their approach to visualizing the setup to make pinpoint contact from the CB to OB.

My money would be on the person who could do that. Btw, just because a person uses an aiming system doesn't make them more "unnatural" and lumbering than someone who doesn't. They may in fact be more silky smooth and confident.
 
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