No dispute that Efren is the GOAT, but who is the 9 ball GOAT?

[Cornerman]

Has anyone asked Efren who he thought was the best? I think Buddy Hall left a big first impression on Cesar Morales. Efren always mentioned Buddy Hall and Nick Varner as the best at 9 ball. But to be fair, even within the last couple years Efren said he'd pick Nick Varner to be his pool partner if he wasn't allowed to pick another Filipino. Efren doesn't think about any of the young guys. Efren doesn't mention Earl very often either.

Efren has answered many times: Sigel.

And put that comment into context. It’s not like Efren was saying “Sigel was the toughest but I still beat him.” That would be revisionist history. Efren couldn’t beat Sigel before Sigel retired. Efren was a big underdog to Sigel. And Efren was in his 30’s, so it’s not like Efren wasn’t in his prime shooting years. People will say Efren’s prime was even earlier, but he wasn’t tested against the best in the world until he arrived in the US in the mid 80’s.

 

[Stevexjfe]

Yup, agree to disagree. I've been around since the beginning of Sigel's career in the mid-1970's, so I've seen Sigel's entire career and Shane's entire career. See post 164, in which Island Drive (who has been around even longer than I) recalls the buzz surrounding Sigel back in the day. He pretty much never came up for air in his career. In addition, when Shane won the 2022 World championship, it was his first major in six years. I assure you that Sigel never had such a stretch. In fact, many feel that Sigel was still the best player in the world when he retired from competition in 1993.

Then again, Shane may have as good a claim as anyone to being the 10-ball goat.

You've said multiple times Sigel is a world 9-Ball champion could you tell me specifically which events these were, that were pre 1990 (WPA sanctioning body), so I can add this to his wiki page. Because In the past you've also said that there were no World Championship events before the WPA, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.

 

[sjm]

You've said multiple times Sigel is a world 9-Ball champion could you tell me specifically which events these were, that were pre 1990 (WPA sanctioning body), so I can add this to his wiki page. Because In the past you've also said that there were no World Championship events before the WPA, so I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Let me clarify as we're in a grey area here. Let's start by noting that WPA only came into existence in the late 1980s, and that the first of the modern World 9-ball championships was in 1990. Before that, there was no world championship having a truly international field and World 9-ball titles meant less.

For example, Earl Strickland's BCA Hallof Fame blurb credits him with the World 9-ball Championship in both 1984 and 1988, but on his Wikipedia page, it omits these.

Here's Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame blurb:

Mike Sigel, at 35, became the youngest male elected to the BCA Hall of Fame. Born in Rochester, N.Y. Sigel began playing pool at 13, and turned professional when he was 20. A natural right-hander who shoots left-handed, Sigel won his first major tournament, the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, in 1975. His career blossomed quickly, and Sigel was perhaps the game's dominant player in the 1980s. He amassed 38 major 14.1 and 9-ball championships in that decade. Sigel has won three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981 and 1985) and one World 9-Ball title (1985) as well as numerous national titles.

In other words, the HOF credits Sigel as having won the 1985 World 9ball title, but as I've noted, this was before the modern era world championships as we now know them.

Like I said, World 9-ball titles before 1990 lie in the grey area.

 

[Stevexjfe]

Let me clarify as we're in a grey area here. Let's start by noting that WPA only came into existence in the late 1980s, and that the first of the modern World 9-ball championships was in 1990. Before that, there was no world championship having a truly international field and World 9-ball titles meant less.

For example, Earl Strickland's BCA Hall of Fame blurb credits him with the World 9-ball Championship in both 1984 and 1988, but on his Wikipedia page, it omits these.

Here's Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame blurb:

Mike Sigel, at 35, became the youngest male elected to the BCA Hall of Fame. Born in Rochester, N.Y. Sigel began playing pool at 13, and turned professional when he was 20. A natural right-hander who shoots left-handed, Sigel won his first major tournament, the U.S. Open 9-Ball Championship, in 1975. His career blossomed quickly, and Sigel was perhaps the game's dominant player in the 1980s. He amassed 38 major 14.1 and 9-ball championships in that decade. Sigel has won three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981 and 1985) and one World 9-Ball title (1985) as well as numerous national titles.

In other words, the HOF credits Sigel as having won the 1985 World 9ball title, but as I've noted, this was before the modern era world championships as we now know them.

Like I said, World 9-ball titles before 1990 lie in the grey area.

Yes I didn't add Earl's titles in 84 and 88 to his wiki as being World 9-Ball Championships, because many people like yourself, kind of, feel that these were not true world championship events (like Johnston City). I know the events their referring to here, the tournaments held at Caesars Palace, Tahoe, Boardwalk and Resorts and if these tournaments were not in the class of a world championship, this would mean Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Jay Swanson and Wade Crane would not be classed as world but national 9-Ball champions. So yes, basically it's a yes or a no, there's really no in between on this matter, when is comes to classification.

This is a continuation of Hall of Famer Charles Ursitti's list of world champions-

Template:World pool champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame bio is also way off, Sigel's three World 14.1 crowns were (1979, 1981 and 1988), the 1985 event was not sanctioned. He also didn't win the U.S Open 9-Ball in 1975 but in 76, if their referring to tournament before the name was changed (U.S. Masters 9-Ball) and he first won that in 1974. The world 9-ball title in 1985, the title their referring to was the Resorts International Last Call For 9-Ball, that was held in November of 1986.

 

[sjm]

Yes I didn't add Earl's titles in 84 and 88 to his wiki as being World 9-Ball Championships, because many people like yourself, kind of, feel that these were not true world championship events (like Johnston City). I know the events their referring to here, the PBA tournaments held at Caesars Palace, Tahoe, Boardwalk and Resorts and if these tournaments were not in the class of a world championship, this would mean Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Jay Swanson and Wade Crane would not be classed as world but national 9-Ball champions. So yes, basically it's a yes or a no, there's really no in between on this matter, when is comes to classification.

This is a continuation of Hall of Famer Charles Ursitti's list of world champions-

Template:World pool champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame bio is also way off, Sigel's had four not three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981, 1985 and 1988), He didn't win the U.S Open 9-Ball in 1975 but in 76, if their referring to tournament before the name was changed (U.S. Masters 9-Ball) and he first won that in 1974. The world 9-ball title in 1985, the title their referring to was the Resorts International Last Call For 9-Ball, that was held in November of 1986.

Thanks for your post.

As you've verified, the record keeping in our sport needs major improvement. I think you've raised some great points and there will always be debate when it comes to things like Johnston City, Resorts, etc., which are probably best understood as de facto World Championships rather than the fully sanctioned and recognized ones of our era,

Johnston City is before my time, but of the eight nine ball events played there in the 1960's, Lassiter won five of them. It was clearly the toughest nine ball event of the year to win at the time. Nick Varner has opined that these performances by Lassiter might just put him right at the top of the list for greatest ever nine-baller, yet you and I would probably say that Wimpy was never World 9-ball Champion.

I remember that event at Resorts, which featured one of the biggest and toughest fields ever seen in our sport. Shame the event didn't last.

Sadly, pool's past is far hazier than either of us prefer, but it's always fun to reminisce and try to make some sense of it.

 

[Cornerman]

Yes I didn't add Earl's titles in 84 and 88 to his wiki as being World 9-Ball Championships, because many people like yourself, kind of, feel that these were not true world championship events (like Johnston City). I know the events their referring to here, the PBA tournaments held at Caesars Palace, Tahoe, Boardwalk and Resorts and if these tournaments were not in the class of a world championship, this would mean Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Jay Swanson and Wade Crane would not be classed as world but national 9-Ball champions. So yes, basically it's a yes or a no, there's really no in between on this matter, when is comes to classification.

This is a continuation of Hall of Famer Charles Ursitti's list of world champions-

Template:World pool champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame bio is also way off, Sigel's had four not three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981, 1985 and 1988), He didn't win the U.S Open 9-Ball in 1975 but in 76, if their referring to tournament before the name was changed (U.S. Masters 9-Ball) and he first won that in 1974. The world 9-ball title in 1985, the title their referring to was the Resorts International Last Call For 9-Ball, that was held in November of 1986.

Are you the one removing titles when some of us (JAM, me etc) add titles to certain players? Please say that isn’t so.

 

[Cornerman]

Yes I didn't add Earl's titles in 84 and 88 to his wiki as being World 9-Ball Championships, because many people like yourself, kind of, feel that these were not true world championship events (like Johnston City). I know the events their referring to here, the PBA tournaments held at Caesars Palace, Tahoe, Boardwalk and Resorts and if these tournaments were not in the class of a world championship, this would mean Mike Sigel, Buddy Hall, Jim Rempe, Jay Swanson and Wade Crane would not be classed as world but national 9-Ball champions. So yes, basically it's a yes or a no, there's really no in between on this matter, when is comes to classification.

This is a continuation of Hall of Famer Charles Ursitti's list of world champions-

Template:World pool champions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Sigel's BCA Hall of Fame bio is also way off, Sigel's had four not three World 14.1 crowns (1979, 1981, 1985 and 1988), He didn't win the U.S Open 9-Ball in 1975 but in 76, if their referring to tournament before the name was changed (U.S. Masters 9-Ball) and he first won that in 1974. The world 9-ball title in 1985, the title their referring to was the Resorts International Last Call For 9-Ball, that was held in November of 1986.

Not including the Word Championship of 1988 is a mistake, plain and simple. In twenty years, someone is going to think that the recent world 9-ball wasnt worthy.

The 1988 Brunswick World 9-ball Open had 8 or so Hall of Famers. It was a televised event that showed the quarterfinals and up every week on Wednesday at primetime slots until the finals. It also showcased the women’s event. The men wore tuxedos. The greatest 9-ball player beat the all-time greatest tournament player in the finals.

A few years ago, a Mr Lee Valiensky removed some content I uploaded to Wiki. I remember when the late George Fels asked me to consider loading content into Wiki for pool and billiards. Apparently, Mr Lee knows more about pool’s history than I. Eff him. It soured my taste for Wiki, as if it wasnt soured enough with its open architecture to every yahoo.

 

[Cornerman]

Not removing them at all, just not classing certain titles as World Championship events, there's a difference, not sure the person your referring to.
I have single handily wrote up the records of nearly all of the pool players you see on wiki today, just to name a few-

List of Efren Reyes championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mike Sigel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Buddy Hall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So you should thank me for making your role at the BCA committee easier, when picking players to be in the Hall of Fame.

Thank you, but no voter worth his salt should be relying on Wikipedia for their vote direction. If they are, they need to rethink their inclusion.

 

[JAM]

Not removing them at all, just not classing certain titles as World Championship events, there's a difference, not sure the person your referring to.
I have single handily wrote up the records of nearly all of the pool players you see on wiki today, just to name a few-

List of Efren Reyes championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Mike Sigel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Buddy Hall - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So you should thank me for making your role at the BCA committee easier, when picking players to be in the Hall of Fame.

Somebody on Wikipedia is removing data on pool player pages because the words don't fit into that person's preference of data. It is quite annoying.

Another thing I find very annoying is somebody is choosing to use British punctuation and no Oxford comma. Another bugaboo of mine.

 

[Stevexjfe]

Thank you, but no voter worth his salt should be relying on Wikipedia for their vote direction. If they are, they need to rethink their inclusion.

True, but someone's got to do it. Other that Charles Ursitti no one even tried to keep a track of pool's history and document it, Snooker is light years ahead of pool when it come to this.

 

[Stevexjfe]

I think the 9-Ball Goat Is Earl without a doubt, because he is holds the record in the two longest and most prestigious 9-Ball tournaments to date.

 

[Cornerman]

The event like many didn't last long. Caesar's event (1982-1984) lasted 2 years, Resort's event (1984-1986) lasted 3 years, Brunswick event (1988-89) lasted 2 years, Pro Billiard Tour's event (1993-1995) lasted 2 years, Camel's event (1997-1999) lasted 3 years, International Pool Tour's event (2005-2006) lasted 2 years.

And Johnson City didn’t last long. Stardust didn’t last long. Many world championships were actually one-on-one challenge matches. In golf, early major championships and significant tournament hardly had any competitors compared to today. If you use this type of reasoning, then every tournament can be viewed as low significance. In twenty years, maybe there’s a whole larger tournament structure that makes a 128-man field totally insignificant. I could go on and on. I’d rather not. The 1988 and 1989 World Open was 100% a major, significant tournament.

 

[Cornerman]

True, but someone's got to do it. Other that Charles Ursitti no one even tried to keep a track of pool's history and document it, Snooker is light years ahead of pool when it come to this.

I didn’t say not to do this work. But I am saying that no voter should be relying on Wikipedia for their Hall of Fame vote. I hope you understand this.

Even now, if someone were to look at Wikipedia, they’d see players that deserve more recognition not getting it. Because some of their significant titles aren’t being listed. And some of us have added titles, but someone out there that apparently knows more about the history of American Pool than we do decides that they can remove titles because they think they’re not significant. It’s BS.

 

[Stevexjfe]

And Johnson City didn’t last long. Stardust didn’t last long. Many world championships were actually one-on-one challenge matches. In golf, early major championships and significant tournament hardly had any competitors compared to today. If you use this type of reasoning, then every tournament can be viewed as low significance. In twenty years, maybe there’s a whole larger tournament structure that makes a 128-man field totally insignificant. I could go on and on. I’d rather not. The 1988 and 1989 World Open was 100% a major, significant tournament.

Good point, but what would the sanctioning body be for the 1988 and 1989 events?

 

[Dave714]

In the early 70's Buddy matched up with Jimmy Rempe at Weenie Beanie's Jack 'n' Jill Cue Club in Arlington, VA. 10 games ahead freezeout for $25,000. This was when Rempe was winning one tournament after another, and Buddy was a relative unknown in tournament play.

It was a winner breaks format. Buddy broke and ran the first 6 racks, then came up dry. Rempe ran out, but then when he came up dry himself in the next game, that was the last time he got out of his chair. Counting the rack he ran after Rempe's dry break, Buddy finished off with a 4 pack.

The table time was 45 cents.

I'd like to hear more gambling related match ups.

 

[PoolBum]

Efren names his toughest opponent:

 

[ChrisinNC]

LeBron was no slouch. Not exactly the favorite among the champions of his era, I'll concede that for sure. But he didn't have to lose, either.

He did beat Varner 11-6 to win the 88 US Open 9 Ball, back when Nick was playing in rarefied air.

FWIW, Pat Fleming is adamant no dump occurred.

The both played awful in that video for who they are. I can see some questions being raised if all you have is the video to go off of.

The real crime to me is the way that table looks. Kim Steel?

This was a dark moment for men’s pro pool, which is why you’ll have trouble ever finding insiders (or any of the players who were involved) to open up and talk honestly about it.

It’s quite evident what was going on for anyone who knows how well Buddy played back then, just watching what transpired the final few games.

 

[Cornerman]

If you allow these then you open the flood gates. What about The Casers events and PBT event and Camel event, Earl would be a 8 time "world champion" in 1983 (Tahoe), 1984 (Caesars), 1988 (Caesars), 1990, 1991, 1994 (Riviera) , 1999 (Riviera), 2002.

I don’t see why you wouldn’t list them as significant world championship titles. It shouldn’t be up to one organization to decide what is a world championship when those tournaments were long before the WPA came about.

 

[Stevexjfe]

I don’t see why you wouldn’t list them as significant world championship titles. It shouldn’t be up to one organization to decide what is a world championship when those tournaments were long before the WPA came about.

I suppose the events that were pre 1990 could be added but at that point it's subjective to which ones qualify as "World Championship" events. You decide If you think you can, because I certainly don't have the stuff to figure that one out and don't know who can make those kind of decisions, without it being purely subjective.

 

[Cornerman]

I suppose the events that were pre 1990 could be added but at that point it's subjective to which ones qualify as "World Championship" events. You decide If you think you can, because I certainly don't have the stuff to figure that one out and don't know who can make those kind of decisions, without it being purely subjective.

Agreed.

BTW, I think that the Brunswick World Open 9-ball tournaments may have been sanctioned by the MPBA, but in those years it was a revolving alphabet of sanctioning governing bodies whose main mission seemed to be to destroy any sense of organization for men's professional pocket billiard events.