No jump cue allowed

[hang-the-9]

Sorry but this is just funny... I had my 8 yr old daughter successfully make a kick yesterday so I guess that means kick takes next to no skill as well. Did your son make the shot...?

Granted getting over a ball is extremely easy with a jump stick, but that's where the advantage ends. Jumping with aim, with purpose, and controlling the CB after potting the ball, (if that's the goal) is a whole new ball game. Jumping with a player, is a slash and hope proposition. Nothing entertaining or impressive in witnessing desperation.

Yes anyone can make a kick, but it's many times harder to jump with a full cue than to show someone how to make a kick, one is nearly impossible without a lot of practice, it's not hard to show where to hit the ball on a rail. Why don't you try to show your 8 year old how to jump with a full cue and see how long that takes. It's not a matter of kicks being easy, it's a matter or the jump cue making the jump too easy, your example actually shows exactly why, the jump cue makes jumping way too easy compared to the normal full cue jump. There is no special trick to make kicks easier outside of skill and knowledge. Jump cues to kicks would be a cue with a laser sight that you just turn on and it shows you where to hit and with what spin. But jump cues replace skill pretty much fully, kicking is all skill, which you showed your daughter. You can't teach your daughter to jump without a crutch cue, but you can teach her to kick with knowledge. That is why jump cues are crap they replace the skill of the jump with a full cue with the gimmick or a pogo stick.

At the amateur level even getting over the ball to make a good hit is a giant advantage. Ever hear the term that anything is better than ball in hand? The fact that pros can play position off jumps and make the ball is just icing on the cake, not the cake.

There is no situation in which jump cues are good for the game past excitement for people that don't know the game who think "good" players just bank and jump balls all the time.

 

[The_JV]

There is no situation in which jump cues are good for the game past excitement for people that don't know the game who think "good" players just bank and jump balls all the time.

Meh... that argument can be twisted to suit any argument.

-LD shafts have killed the skill of the game because players don't need to learn to deal with extreme squirt. I rather see a player roll into a safety rather than witness the extreme english they can apply these days.
-Gloves have taken away the advantage from players who keep their emotions in check and don't sweat constantly. I want to see players attempt to shove their pro taper through their damp close bridge.
-Break cues have removed the onus of game management from players who had to worry about breaking hard and not damaging their tip. I rather see the biggest breakers in the world swing with their purses for sake of saving their player's tip.
-blah blah blah.....etc

I know the game, and fully understand the jump shot. Getting over the ball was never the problem. Whether it be with a full cue or a jumper. The skill was in controlling the CB when applying such an extreme stroke with a full cue. Which severely limited the opprotunity to attempt it. The jumper dialed the necessary force behind the stroke way down, and has allowed players to focus on the precision of the shot. No different then what the break cue has done for that shot. No different than how the LD shaft changed potting with extreme english.

I've said this before somewhere, but the comparison goes like this...: A player has had a piss poor safety played against him, and can either kick one rail for an easy/legal hit which doesn't advance the game in the slightest. ...or... A player has had a piss poor safety played against him, and has the option to pull out his jumper to make the easy/legal hit. However the jump provides the opprotunity for the incoming player to either make the ball or return the safe. Thereby advancing the game, punishing the piss poor safety effort, and adds an element of decision making.
-Situation #1: The player hits the ball, yawn.
-Situation #2: The player weighs the odds, pulls the jumper, successfully hits the OB in a far more entertaining way, but during all this the audience has been paying attention to see if he returns the favour or pots the ball.

Neither approach is displaying any real skill initially. A simple 1 rail kick, or a simplistic jump aren't difficult. It's the decision to be agressive with the jumper, and the skill it takes to be accurate enough with the jumper to control the shot that makes it interesting.

Banning the jump shot makes sense from an equipment stand point, and you'll never get an argument from me. The notion of banning just the jump cue because it somehow makes a jump shot pedestrian is silly.

 

[Ratta]

Nowadays the industry makes much money by selling jump cues- that s the main problem now. I don t see that they will disappear somewhen- for some it might look spectacular- but imo it really takes away skills.
But you cannot blame the players- if its allowed, you NEED to learn it and use it- the pro s have to take every possible advantage to stay on top.
sad but true

 

[The_JV]

for some it might look spectacular- but imo it really takes away skills.

But you cannot blame the players- if its allowed, you NEED to learn it and use it

Does it reduce the skill of the average player, or just give them another skill they have to learn...?

Yes I understand the argument that being able to jump a ball reduces the frequency of requiring to kick at an OB. ...however that doesn't translate to not needing to know how to kick.

 

[David in FL]

Does it reduce the skill of the average player, or just give them another skill they have to learn...?

Yes I understand the argument that being able to jump a ball reduces the frequency of requiring to kick at an OB. ...however that doesn't translate to not needing to know how to kick.

Agree.

Another arrow in the quiver. There are usually different ways to play just about every shot we take. We choose the one we choose based on the circumstances at the time.

Learn to jump. Learn to kick. Learn that simply putting another ball between the cue ball and the object ball doesn’t constitute much of a safe.

 

[Ratta]

Does it reduce the skill of the average player, or just give them another skill they have to learn...?

Yes I understand the argument that being able to jump a ball reduces the frequency of requiring to kick at an OB. ...however that doesn't translate to not needing to know how to kick.

Hey JV

for me personally i don t see this discussion- just shared my personal opinion.
I think about myself, that I am a very expirienced *kick shot* player far above average- I m also able to jump well enough- everything from 1/2 a ball away from cb is not really a problem ( with hitting- not saying I would make every ball )

And yes- if someone is playing competitive pool, he needs to learn jumps to keep his chances equal to others.

 

[Maniac]

Learn that simply putting another ball between the cue ball and the object ball doesn’t constitute much of a safe.

Unless you're playing in an APA non-Masters league.

Maniac (has jump cues......never uses them)

 

[The_JV]

Unless you're playing in an APA non-Masters league.

Maniac (has jump cues......never uses them)

One of the various reasons I don't play in non-Masters APA league

JV (has a jump cue, is deadly with it, but kicks when it's called for...lol)

 

[Island Drive]

What I've also found out. Some jumpers have no tip and scrape the cue ball leaving permanent marks.

 

[garczar]

What I've also found out. Some jumpers have no tip and scrape the cue ball leaving permanent marks.

Never seen this. No tip?? G10 tips can leave marks but its on the break not a jump.

 

[The_JV]

What I've also found out. Some jumpers have no tip and scrape the cue ball leaving permanent marks.

Never seen this. No tip?? G10 tips can leave marks but its on the break not a jump.

My jumper has some level of phenolic end. Ferrule/tip all in one. Although I haven't seen any damage from it, I did note some damage done by another player that claimed to be using the same material. Since then I have moved to a 'white diamond' tip on my jumper. Not nearly as reactive, but I rather not potentially damage the equipment.

 

[David in FL]

Never seen this. No tip?? G10 tips can leave marks but its on the break not a jump.

Me neither.

Properly done, a jump generally uses less force than the break. The tips are pretty similar, or in the case of a jump/break cue, one and the same.

 

[PoolHallPaul]

Break cues first came into vogue because breaking hard at nine ball quickly flattened one's tip and/or caused it to mushroom. They were not needed in the straight pool era because 14.1 called for a defensive break that was hit relatively soft. Jump shots played with a full cue did not similarly compromise one's equipment. There was never a need for the jump cue, and in my view, it still compromises the game.

Finally, jump cues do far more damage to the table than full cue jumps ever did. Yes, for a single jump, the effect may be similar, even though jump cue shots typically use more cue elevation than the full cue jumps of yesteryear. The difference is that for every jump shot you used to see before jump cues, I'd say you see over 100 of them now. Back in the day, I saw entire nine ball events in which I didn't see a single jump shot attempted.

Ever see anyone with a jump cue beat Efren?

 

[Maniac]

Ever see anyone with a jump cue beat Efren?

I don't recall ever actually seeing it, but I guarantee it happened....and more than once. Efren was probably the greatest rotation player to date, but don't kid yourself...he lost his share of matches.

Maniac (loved and learned from watching the man kick though)

 

[PoolHallPaul]

I don't recall ever actually seeing it, but I guarantee it happened....and more than once. Efren was probably the greatest rotation player to date, but don't kid yourself...he lost his share of matches.

Maniac (loved and learned from watching the man kick though)

I do not like jump cues.leave the cb frozen to an object ball it takes the jump out of play. How many times does any one pocket the ball? HALF THE TIME CB JUMPS THE TABLE.

 

[garczar]

Ever see anyone with a jump cue beat Efren?

VERRRRRRRY rarely. I bet its less than the the fingers on one hand.

 

[David in FL]

I do not like jump cues.leave the cb frozen to an object ball it takes the jump out of play. How many times does any one pocket the ball? HALF THE TIME CB JUMPS THE TABLE.

Anyone who jumps the cue ball off the table half the time is completely incompetent and probably shouldn’t be allowed to have long pointy objects in their hands in the first place!

You‘re right though. Jumping forces people to learn to play better safes.

 

[philly]

I do not like jump cues.leave the cb frozen to an object ball it takes the jump out of play. How many times does any one pocket the ball? HALF THE TIME CB JUMPS THE TABLE.

Precisely.
Not more than 5% of players are proficient with a jump cue although they all think they are.
Some players are excellent with jump cues.
When my opponent takes his jump cue out, 95% of the time I am expecting to get ball in hand.

 

[garczar]

Precisely.
Not more than 5% of players are proficient with a jump cue although they all think they are.
Some players are excellent with jump cues.
When my opponent takes his jump cue out, 95% of the time I am expecting to get ball in hand.

My spot has a lot of leagues. All these guys/gals have jumpers. Every now-n-then i see a decent shot but most of the time they foul in some fashion. None of these people can kick worth a shit. Won't take the time to learn it.

 

[The_JV]

Precisely.
Not more than 5% of players are proficient with a jump cue although they all think they are.
Some players are excellent with jump cues.
When my opponent takes his jump cue out, 95% of the time I am expecting to get ball in hand.

That's odd... I keep being told in these threads that the jump cue has made the shot ridiculously easy. Even 10 yr olds can pull it off.

I think that if I could expect a 95% return with BIH, I would be buying jump cues in bulk and handing them out prior to every tournament...lol.

I guess this is a regional thing. I might see 20% foul rate due to attempted jump shots against me. That would drop to maybe 5% foul rate when playing against the stronger class.