Non-straightforward shots in straight pool

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papercut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm trying to bring my straight pool runs to the higher level (I'm currently hovering in the low 40s).

To those who have approached or surpassed the century mark, could you please estimate what percent of your shots in this high run involved a combo, kiss, bank, or carom? 10%, 20%, 50%?

I think part of my problem is that, frankly, I'm chicken when it comes to a non-clean shot. Hence, I attempt something risky (e.g. shot that requires subsequent pinpoint position) whereas I wonder if playing more non-clean shots better negotiates clusters and enhances position. In other words, I'm wondering if I should be looking more for non-clean shots than clean ones.
 
get the book

Ray Martin 99 critical shots. It has a great section on finding those shots you can't normally see. And remember, you don't need excessive power to break out shots. If you slam them and that ball bobbles, your dead in the water.
 
I have a copy of Irving Crane's 150 and out in the 1966 BCA World Championship against Joe Balsis.

This is something I noticed in his run. He banked ZERO times. The only combos he attempted were where the nominated object ball was just a few inches from the pocket (4 or 5 times?). He only shot uptable when he absolutely had to. He ALWAYS cleared all the balls near the rails first so that the pack balls could be more easily potted. ZERO carom shots I believe.

Watching the masters of 14.1 really opened my eyes as to how the game is really suppose to be played. Hope this info helps.
 
TX Poolnut said:
I have a copy of Irving Crane's 150 and out in the 1966 BCA World Championship against Joe Balsis.

This is something I noticed in his run. He banked ZERO times. The only combos he attempted were where the nominated object ball was just a few inches from the pocket (4 or 5 times?). He only shot uptable when he absolutely had to. He ALWAYS cleared all the balls near the rails first so that the pack balls could be more easily potted. ZERO carom shots I believe.

Watching the masters of 14.1 really opened my eyes as to how the game is really suppose to be played. Hope this info helps.
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I have two tapes (borrowed from and never returned to Hoboken_APA)

In Jim Rempe's "how to run a 100 balls" - I think he shoots one combo out of a cluster. One of his breaks sent a few balls up table, but I only recall one long shot up table.

The other is Dallas West beating Mike Zuglan in the '92 US Open. West's one miss was an attempt to masse. Zuglan's two misses were: an attempt at a combo out of the rack after West's break, and a two ball combo, where the ball he was trying to pot was on the long rail, maybe 4" from the pocket. There were no banks. There were a handful of combos, but not many.
 
TX Poolnut said:
I have a copy of Irving Crane's 150 and out in the 1966 BCA World Championship against Joe Balsis.

This is something I noticed in his run. He banked ZERO times. .
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Poolnut,
I haven't watched it for a while, but I DO think Irving banks 2 balls to continue his run. Even more impressive, though, is that I think he finds himself shooting off the rail only 2 times in 150 balls (I counted once, but may not be remembering correctly) - I don't think Irving liked to shoot off the rail, and made it a priority (according to an acquaintance of his that posts here) to keep the cueball in a place where he could see all of it.

Anyway, its a great tape. I figure it must be the FIRST recorded hundred ball run (does anyone know of any others that were earlier).

P.S. - not trying to cause trouble. Maybe I'll watch the tape again next week and get back to you with an apology.
 
No need to review it. I took this as an opportunity to review this fantastic run again myself. It never ceases to amaze me how well he played this run even when he got out of line. So without further ado...

# of kicks... 0

# of caroms... 0

# of banks... 0

# of combos... 9
Point # 1 and 2 are scored on the first shot by exploding the pack.
Point # 22 is a dead combo from the pack.
Point # 35 is a 2 ball combo that also break open the pack.
Point # 43 is a 4 ball combo out of the pack. Wonderful shot.
Point # 46 is a 2 ball combo next to a corner pocket.
Point # 47 is a 2 ball combo next to the same pocket.
Point # 49 is a 2 ball combo next to the same pocket.
Point # 81 is a 2 ball combo along the side rail.
Point # 127 and 128 is a 2 ball combo that pockets both balls.

Incidentally, first prize for this masterpiece was $2500.00 and a trophy cup.
 
TX Poolnut said:
No need to review it...
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Poolnut,
Cool. Thanks for the exhaustive breakdown. My apologies for doubting you (I wonder how long before this Alzheimer's starts to affect my pool game). Anyway, you've certainly whetted my appetite to watch it again. Crane was my favorite player as I was growing up, and it is really nice that some of his magic was captured on tape.
 
TX Poolnut said:
No need to review it. I took this as an opportunity to review this fantastic run again myself. It never ceases to amaze me how well he played this run even when he got out of line. So without further ado...

# of kicks... 0

# of caroms... 0

# of banks... 0

# of combos... 9
Point # 1 and 2 are scored on the first shot by exploding the pack.
Point # 22 is a dead combo from the pack.
Point # 35 is a 2 ball combo that also break open the pack.
Point # 43 is a 4 ball combo out of the pack. Wonderful shot.
Point # 46 is a 2 ball combo next to a corner pocket.
Point # 47 is a 2 ball combo next to the same pocket.
Point # 49 is a 2 ball combo next to the same pocket.
Point # 81 is a 2 ball combo along the side rail.
Point # 127 and 128 is a 2 ball combo that pockets both balls.

Incidentally, first prize for this masterpiece was $2500.00 and a trophy cup.
Click to expand...


Great! 9/150=6% of the shots. Not that this is an exhaustive sample, but for a high run, I should expect that for every 15-16 shots, I should expect approx 1 to involve some type of combo, or about once a rack. That's good knowlege as I usually attempt virtually no combos.

Thanks to all the great responses! I'll really start studying the clusters!
 
As Dick Lane said in one of the accustate tapes that I have...it boils down to "risk/reward". Anytime you run a significant number of balls, you will be confronted with shot's that are touchy. You will have to make a decision whether to take the easier shot, where your run might end early; or a higher degree of difficulty shot, where if you make it you have the chance to extend your run.

You should always be aware of the pack and various possible combos, etc... to overlook these can limit your running ability.

Regards,

Doug
 
With the exception of combos, one thing I've noticed on all of the taped matches I have is that the pros usually pass on "fancy" shots. And when they don't, they usually miss.

I have one match that occured during the same year that Efren Reyes made his famous two rail kick. In this one he misses a very simple one rail kick (he doesn't miss potting the shot but the ball itself). He also misses a bank so badly that it looked like he had never attempted one before (I don't think he was playing a half-safe from the context). He was definitely having an off day.

I also have videos of some of the top bank pool players including one where Jason Miller runs the first two racks at the DCC, then after a few inning exchanges, runs the third. In a subsequent match with John Bromback, who was also playing excellently, both missed their two and three rail attempts with maybe one exception.

From the examples I have, and they are all top names, they all miss severe cuts just like the rest of us unless the object ball is very close to the pocket.

What the pros do is to recognize the patterns, make the easy to medium-hard shots with great consistency, and get at least reasonable to excellent position. If you can do that....


Jim
 
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papercut said:
Great! 9/150=6% of the shots. Not that this is an exhaustive sample, but for a high run, I should expect that for every 15-16 shots, I should expect approx 1 to involve some type of combo, or about once a rack. That's good knowlege as I usually attempt virtually no combos.

Thanks to all the great responses! I'll really start studying the clusters!
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Laceration-man,
I have been fortunate to play 14.1 with some of the best players in history; the 6% figure sounds about right to me for a long run (though I would like to hear what SJM would have to say). The shots "out of the pack" are critically important to identify - they may be close to 100% certain, and many times will save you having to shoot the dreaded 50 percenters (or even the dreaded 80 percenters). They also many times will allow you to continue a run instead of playing safe.

In Betmore's Basement (as many already know) you are absolutely required to shoot any "out of the pack" shots if they come up (even if open shots are available) - how else will you learn them if you don't shoot them in practice at every opportunity????? If you are interested in learning, get a lesson with Danny D. (he must have a Ph.D. in "pack-ology"), he will show you shots that will astound you.

P.S. - I once harangued a former #1 in the world player for passing up a pack shot in Betmore's Basement. That player then played a 9 foot, radical cut with heavy inside English to get position for the pack shot again (despite several easy hangers elsewhere on the table), made the pack shot, and ran 65 and out on me to win 150-138. I SHOULD HAVE KEPT MY MOUTH SHUT.
 
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papercut said:
Great! 9/150=6% of the shots. Not that this is an exhaustive sample, but for a high run, I should expect that for every 15-16 shots, I should expect approx 1 to involve some type of combo, or about once a rack. That's good knowlege as I usually attempt virtually no combos.

Thanks to all the great responses! I'll really start studying the clusters!
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Papercut,

I think an average of one shot like this per rack is too high. One thing you may notice is that certain racks that don't break very well will yield more than its share of combos. The Crane tape seems to support this, as 4 of the points appear to be from the same rack. Remove that one rack from the sample, and you have quite a different overall result.

Another thing I would stress is that there is a huge difference between combinations and banks. There are many combinations that for all intents and purposes cannot be missed; if these come up, there is no reason to avoid them if they will open the rack after making them. Banks are very different. Except for the best of the best, they all entail much greater risk than the average shot, and should be avoided a little bit more than combinations. A notable exception would be where you have no choice but to take the bank because there is no realistic safe. But NEVER take a bank if it doesn't yield a very good reward (i.e., the ability to keep running balls).

Hope this helps,
Steve
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Papercut,

I think an average of one shot like this per rack is too high. One thing you may notice is that certain racks that don't break very well will yield more than its share of combos. The Crane tape seems to support this, as 4 of the points appear to be from the same rack. Remove that one rack from the sample, and you have quite a different overall result.
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I'm in no position to argue pool strategy with you (I'm a big fan... I've seen you a few times), but I don't think you can remove an outlier rack from a sample when developing a crude rule of thumb. If I've run 40 balls without shooting one combo, I'm either getting some really lucky rolls or I'm passing up opportunities of facilitating a run-out. I totally agree that "once a rack" rule doesn't play out on every rack, but it should on average.

I tend to think of it in terms of stock market returns... if you look at history, equity returns (price returns) are around 9% annually. Actually, a lot of this increase is due to a couple of days of huge returns followed by mediocre ones. You wouldn't want to remove these huge 1 day returns in establishing annualized averages.

Mr. Betmore,

I guess it's a judgment call on when you're forced to shoot an open ball vs a buried cluster ball. I really like that... I'll try it tonight!
 
papercut said:
I'm in no position to argue pool strategy with you (I'm a big fan... I've seen you a few times), but I don't think you can remove an outlier rack from a sample when developing a crude rule of thumb. If I've run 40 balls without shooting one combo, I'm either getting some really lucky rolls or I'm passing up opportunities of facilitating a run-out. I totally agree that "once a rack" rule doesn't play out on every rack, but it should on average.

I tend to think of it in terms of stock market returns... if you look at history, equity returns (price returns) are around 9% annually. Actually, a lot of this increase is due to a couple of days of huge returns followed by mediocre ones. You wouldn't want to remove these huge 1 day returns in establishing annualized averages.
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Hi Paper,

Thanks for the kind words...

I'm still not comfortable with approximately a one-combo per rack average... it just feels too high to me. That would mean that, for argument's sake, if a game goes 150-149, there should be almost 20 combinations/caroms? From experience, I'd be surprised if the actual number were greater than 5, to be honest. Add in a total of one bank(between both players), and the number of "unclean" shots in a hill-hill game would be 6. In a 150-0 blowout, it should be maybe 3.

Empirically, I might be wrong. My numbers above are based only on what I "feel" is the case.

- Steve

Edit: Just want to amend this post to say that I'm not counting clearly dead, frozen two-ball combinations. They either go or they don't - there's no risk.
 
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TX Poolnut said:
I have a copy of Irving Crane's 150 and out in the 1966 BCA World Championship against Joe Balsis.

This is something I noticed in his run. He banked ZERO times. The only combos he attempted were where the nominated object ball was just a few inches from the pocket (4 or 5 times?). He only shot uptable when he absolutely had to. He ALWAYS cleared all the balls near the rails first so that the pack balls could be more easily potted. ZERO carom shots I believe.

Watching the masters of 14.1 really opened my eyes as to how the game is really suppose to be played. Hope this info helps.
Click to expand...

Where did you get that tape? Is it something that can be purchased somewhere?
 
Steve Lipsky said:
I'm still not comfortable with approximately a one-combo per rack average... it just feels too high to me.
Empirically, I might be wrong. My numbers above are based only on what I "feel" is the case.

- Steve

Edit: Just want to amend my previous post to say that I'm not counting clearly dead, frozen two-ball combinations. They either go or they don't - there's no risk.
Click to expand...

I'm like you Steve, that number is a bit high. I've watched the old masters many times and combinations just don't come up all that often. Shooting a bank shot is a real rare. So rare that I can hardly ever remember one. When your knowledge/position skills are at that level the risk factor is very low. Compare that to a less skilled player and it will automatically go higher if they decide to continue a run.

I'm glad you edited your post because those dead two ball ones really don't count. However those dead or near dead in a cluster or balls in front of them you still have to have to hit the right ball. Even for the great ones it can even be tricky.

I wish I had a hundred for everyone I've missed. Sometimes you see it but the ball may have to dodge another moving ball to go into the pocket. Those type of shots. You've just got to ask yourself, do I feel lucky? ha ha ha Well no usually I don't and neither do they. They have to know. I just had a flash back of one of those. I made it but not until studying the shot at great depth.

Rod
 
papercut said:
... I think part of my problem is that, frankly, I'm chicken when it comes to a non-clean shot. Hence, I attempt something risky (e.g. shot that requires subsequent pinpoint position) whereas I wonder if playing more non-clean shots better negotiates clusters and enhances position. In other words, I'm wondering if I should be looking more for non-clean shots than clean ones.
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You need to be able to play the fancy shots. I think one pocket is a better playing situation to learn them than 14.1, though.

I agree with the previous observations about 14.1 champions not using too many banks and combos with one exception. If Luther Lassiter ran 80, you could be pretty sure that he would have 3 bank shots and twice during the run he would study the rack for about five minutes and then call an impossible kiss/carom combination and make it.

But you aren't either Mosconi or Lassiter yet. Try to figure out your percentages. Remember that playing a mediocre safety is probably no good compared to a 60% shot that gives you a chance to get into the next rack.
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Papercut,

I think an average of one shot like this per rack is too high. Steve
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Papercut,
I would certainly defer to Steve's opinion. I would think, however, that the percentage of combinations is still somewhat significant, whatever the number. When balls cluster on the foot rail, there will often be a combo that is easier to sink than to try to disrupt. There also will often be balls clustered in the jaws of the pocket. While these are easy combo's, they still count (and many players will not even give them a second thought as they are not fraught with risk).

P.S. - it sounds like Irving attempts 8 combo's in 150 balls; this is definitely less than 1 attempt per rack for those estimating (and I believe there was a rack with multiple combo's, but it has been awhile since I saw it).
 
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