Noob Needs Advice

That's the first thing I looked at. The four is not straight to the pocket. A stop shot on it with even a soft hit will bring the cb at least out to middle table.

True dat. Stop shot on the 4 as the first shot brings the CB out toward the 9.

If I hit the 4 with the cue really jacked up high and hit it only just hard enough for the 4 ball to barely reach the corner pocket, then the CB only goes about 8-10" out toward the middle of the table. But then even when I hit the 5 as soft as possible the CB still comes out to the middle of the table down at the far right end (relative to the picture) leaving a near-impossible shot on the 9--it's such a thin cut on the 9 that the CB keeps too much speed and won't stop anywhere near the 2.

Mike
 
first, I would recommend some lessons or some videos on how to draw and practice simple draw shots the right way over and over again.

You'd think. For some reason, I can draw fine at my lessons. I don't know what I'm doing at home that I'm not doing there (or vice versa). We need to spend some time on this at my next lesson.

And, got any videos in mind?
 
Hey, so check this out! Despite being a still photographer, I've never actually made a video before. But my digicam has video capability. Here I am clearing the four balls in question in what seems like the best way to do it, at least given my beginner-level skill set. As RRfireblade, Neil and others suggested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJcDqZloTU

My form is terrible--don't tell my teacher that I'm yanking the cue back like that, he won't like it. But I felt a little stressed being on the wrong side of the camera. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

Also, I discovered in the course of making this that I am fat. I had not realized. I don't seem fat from the inside of me. However, looking at the outside it becomes more apparent.

The white dots on the table are those little hole-punch reinforcers, which I use for putting the balls back in the same position when I'm practicing.

Thanks for all the help & commentary.

Mike
 
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I would shoot the 5 with a touch of draw, the 9 with follow so the CB goes one rail to the end rail for the 2 then come off the rail a little for the 4. Pretty much the same as everyone else.--Smitty
 
with ball in hand because I played a dead lock safe on you, 2-4-5-9 all day. As the balls lie I agree with Neil
 
You'd think. For some reason, I can draw fine at my lessons. I don't know what I'm doing at home that I'm not doing there (or vice versa). We need to spend some time on this at my next lesson.

And, got any videos in mind?

You need to spend some time on it BEFORE your next lesson! If you could draw in your lesson, then just go through the same steps now in practice. Pay close attention to what you are actually doing, and the results. That all goes into your memory bank. If you don't pay attention, you don't have the memory bank to go off of.

If you aren't drawing the ball, you just aren't hitting low enough. It's practice, don't be afraid to miscue. Bring the cue back very slowly, bring it forward on the same line. Then you know where you hit the cb, and can adjust as necessary. If you could do it once, you can do it again. With practice, you can do it on demand.
 
Originally Posted by Neil
or, you will be able to shoot the 9 with more follow and firmer and come off the rail and back across the table for the 2 in the bottom corner. Then, just shoot the 4 in the side.



That didn't work...for me. Because I can't get back from the 5, the angle on the 9 is too steep, and even strong follow hits the end rail below the 2. ("Below" relative to the picture). Then it comes out too far and I have no shot.

I'm sure it would work for you, because you could draw back from the 5 and get a better angle on the 9.

Mike

If you stop it after hitting the 5, the angle on the 9 is too steep?

To me, from the photo, it looks like a gentle shot on the 9 (from where the 5 is) gives you a three rail follow for either the 4 in the side or 2 in the corner.


I want to set that up tonight, if I get to the hall.

Keep working on it! These are fun threads.
 
I hear ya. Sometimes I have no trouble drawing the ball. Other times I have lots of trouble. I'm very inconsistent yet.

The two things I find most frustrating about learning pool are a) the corner pockets on my Olhausen, and b) trying to learn how to draw.

Mike

Draw shots take a lot of practice, it's pretty much an art to get the speed down on different distances with different equipment. Takes a long time to get the feel for it.

Just make sure you have a solid contact point on the cueball or you'll end up with random results. The harder you hit, the more likey you are to hit the cueball too high or too low causing either the ball to stop or to jump.
 
I like 5-4-2-9 personally. You can play every shot with center ball or follow. Depending on how you fell on the 4 after the 5 you could then play 9-2.
 
You need to spend some time on it BEFORE your next lesson! If you could draw in your lesson, then just go through the same steps now in practice. Pay close attention to what you are actually doing, and the results. That all goes into your memory bank. If you don't pay attention, you don't have the memory bank to go off of.

If you aren't drawing the ball, you just aren't hitting low enough. It's practice, don't be afraid to miscue. Bring the cue back very slowly, bring it forward on the same line. Then you know where you hit the cb, and can adjust as necessary. If you could do it once, you can do it again. With practice, you can do it on demand.



OP-excellent advice here from Neil.


I'm not qualified to give advice, but will share some of my struggles with learning to draw the cb.

Remember to 'finish'...stroke through the cb , not at the cb.

It takes a while..but once you get the 'feel' for it...you got it. Then you can start altering the speed(actually..more the rate of acceleration thru the ball) and how low on the cb you slice through.

For me at least...a diamond, a diamond and a half is about the distance apart to practice the draw concept at first. Make sure you can reach the shot comfortably, and your stance and stroke allow you to extend the tip well beyond the cb(about the same distance as the stroke to the ball). Try to keep the stroke as level as possible while cutting thru the cb.

Soon you will be doing the drill where from the same starting positions, you are drawing back, 1, 2, 3 diamonds with consistency. It will come.


For laughs..once you get the 'feel' for the draw....try getting lower and slower and smoother, while still having acceleration(imagine 0 to 15mph leaving a stop sign, instead of head snapping passing gear ...65 to 90).

OP...thanks for the post...everyone who plays has had to spend the time to dial in this fundamental skill to progress with game.

You will get this..it is clear that you are a student of the game. We all are here. Welcome aboard.


Last thot re draw...beware of the dreaded 'deceleration'...draw killer.


Keep us posted...on this or other shots. Neil and others are good about helping a brother out....I'm throwing some other thots in the mix that work for me...but I would listen to others before me.


ps: After you get this draw thing down.....you're going to love the 'force follow' feel learning curve. Not too hard, not to soft....just right.

Enjoy.
 
If possible, you want to learn HOW to move the cue ball in any direction,
before worrying about WHERE you should move it.
Sort of like: it's not useful to know the best route to get to Madison, WI... if I don't know how to drive yet.

So, right now you cannot draw easily.
I have what I consider the best draw-learning trick of all time. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more.

1. Set up a straight in shot into the corner or side pocket.
Try a distance you're uncomfortable with (like 2 diamonds between cue ball and object ball).

2. Chalk the crap out of your cue (good habit anyway on all draw shots).

3. Replace the cue ball with the 9 ball. Rotate the 9 so that the numbers are on the shot line
and set up the yellow stripe so that it's perfectly level with the table.

4. Line up with a level cue to hit the bottom of the white circle around the number 9.
See this pic:

LtG9nIS.png




5. Keep the cue DEAD LEVEL and stroke straight through that spot.
Hit firm but you don't have to strain. If you hit the sweet spot, you will
get maximum draw with minimum speed and effort.

To get the cue level you might need to flatten out your bridge hand a lot.
If you have trouble with this, try shooting with an open bridge... just for learning purposes.
Later on you can figure out how to get it that low with a closed bridge, if you want.

99% of the time, players do not hit low enough.
In fact, not only do they start out aiming too high, but they don't hit where they aim...
they try to force the shot and by "muscling" it. Their tip rises up at the end of their stroke.
Then you end up hitting higher than than where you were aiming.

Many times I'v heard people SWEAR they hit low, but in reality their tip hit center ball, or even above.

So what we've done by heavily chalking in step 2 is given you a way to see where your tip hit.
After the shot, lift up the 9 ball. Look for the blue chalk mark your tip made. Is it at the bottom
of the circle? If you hit firmly, but got no draw, I guarantee it wasn't.
So, pick up the 9 ball, wipe off that chalk mark, and try again (chalking the cue heavily every time).
Keep trying until you hit that sweet spot at the bottom of the circle.
Even coming close will get good draw.

Remember also to keep that cue level. One trick to help with this is to lower your back hand
until you feel the cue bump the rail. Then go ahead and bring it up just an inch or two
so you can swing the cue without smacking your back hand into the rail.
 
You should be able to see the video now...I changed the settings to "public."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJcDqZloTU

This is the first video that I've either made or shared, so I didn't really know what I was doing.

I hope someone will let me know if this is or isn't visible to others.

And sorry again about my bad form...I do work on that, but it was late and I was tired <--another lame excuse

Mike
 
If possible, you want to learn HOW to move the cue ball in any direction,
before worrying about WHERE you should move it.
Sort of like: it's not useful to know the best route to get to Madison, WI... if I don't know how to drive yet.

So, right now you cannot draw easily.
I have what I consider the best draw-learning trick of all time. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more.

1. Set up a straight in shot into the corner or side pocket.
Try a distance you're uncomfortable with (like 2 diamonds between cue ball and object ball).

2. Chalk the crap out of your cue (good habit anyway on all draw shots).

3. Replace the cue ball with the 9 ball. Rotate the 9 so that the numbers are on the shot line
and set up the yellow stripe so that it's perfectly level with the table.

4. Line up with a level cue to hit the bottom of the white circle around the number 9.
See this pic:

LtG9nIS.png




5. Keep the cue DEAD LEVEL and stroke straight through that spot.
Hit firm but you don't have to strain. If you hit the sweet spot, you will
get maximum draw with minimum speed and effort.

To get the cue level you might need to flatten out your bridge hand a lot.
If you have trouble with this, try shooting with an open bridge... just for learning purposes.
Later on you can figure out how to get it that low with a closed bridge, if you want.

99% of the time, players do not hit low enough.
In fact, not only do they start out aiming too high, but they don't hit where they aim...
they try to force the shot and by "muscling" it. Their tip rises up at the end of their stroke.
Then you end up hitting higher than than where you were aiming.

Many times I'v heard people SWEAR they hit low, but in reality their tip hit center ball, or even above.

So what we've done by heavily chalking in step 2 is given you a way to see where your tip hit.
After the shot, lift up the 9 ball. Look for the blue chalk mark your tip made. Is it at the bottom
of the circle? If you hit firmly, but got no draw, I guarantee it wasn't.
So, pick up the 9 ball, wipe off that chalk mark, and try again (chalking the cue heavily every time).
Keep trying until you hit that sweet spot at the bottom of the circle.
Even coming close will get good draw.

Remember also to keep that cue level. One trick to help with this is to lower your back hand
until you feel the cue bump the rail. Then go ahead and bring it up just an inch or two
so you can swing the cue without smacking your back hand into the rail.

CreeDo,
Thanks. I will work on this today. I was going to buy one of those "Jim Rempe training balls" to do just this, but you've told me I already have a training ball in the 9 ball....

I really do want to master the draw shot.

Oddly, I thought I was going to have the most trouble with the follow shot, but Jerry (my teacher) told me to hit through the ball and let the cue tip follow naturally down to the table as my back hand came up, and that was the key for me. I don't have any problem hitting the ball high. It's that "through and down" thought that makes my mind comfortable with a high hit.

Jerry did say that I wasn't hitting the ball where I was aiming when I first learned draw, that I was aiming low but then hitting in the center. The chalk-on-the-ball feedback should be helpful.

Thanks again to everyone. If I get another thorny problem I'll be sure to post it.

Mike
 
You should be able to see the video now...I changed the settings to "public."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryJcDqZloTU

This is the first video that I've either made or shared, so I didn't really know what I was doing.

I hope someone will let me know if this is or isn't visible to others.

And sorry again about my bad form...I do work on that, but it was late and I was tired <--another lame excuse

Mike

Mike, I watched your video. You are doing most things very well, a few- not so well. I hit play/pause through out your stroke, and even put a piece of paper along your cue to check for straightness and levelness to where you were lined up to. VERY good on going straight and hitting where you wanted to hit!

You didn't get draw even though you did hit low enough. The reason is two-fold.
1. You hit too softly for the distance. All the back-spin was gone before you got to the five, and all you had left was a sliding cb. Try some draw shots with a striped ball as the cb. You will see how it starts out with backspin, then slides, then actually reverses from the initial and gets forward roll. This is due to friction with the cloth. If you hit it like you did, (with the caveat of #2 below included), with a higher speed, you will get draw.

2. You have no followthrough to speak of. And, you tend to "pull the cue back" on every shot. Remember, you are striking the cb, but your action needs to be striking THROUGH the cb. Stroke like you are trying to hit a cb 6" farther away from the one blocking your path.

When you don't followthrough and/or jerk your cue back, you are decelerating on the way to the cb. That limits the spin put on the ball quite a bit.
 
I would play the five in the corner and use low. Bounce off the rail enough to shoot the four in and follow it down table. Shoot the four in the corner and follow the four about 1 to 1 and a half diamonds past where the 4 lies now so you have an angle on the two. Shoot the two in the corner and use a little low and hit the two in bouncing off the rail and back up through the center of the table to shoot the 9 in the side.

Alternatively you could shoot the four first in the corner by the 2 with a stop shot. It will roll towards the center of the table a little but not much. Shoot the 5 next with center ball allowing the cue to bounce off the rail to the other side of the table and drift slightly up table. the trick to playing this run-out is the position you get on the nine off this shot. you need it to be no further than maybe a balls with or two out towards the center of the table that the 9 is. Almost like you are trying to shoot it into the corner. Shoot the nine in the side next using a slight bit of low and at slightly harder than pocket speed this should get the cue ball straight in on the two ball for the corner pocket in the bottom of the picture. In this run-out it all boils down to getting the correct shape on the 9 though.

the first one is easier but both just use stop and folow to achieve your goal.
 
5-9-2-4 someone probably already said this, but if you cant draw consistantly, stop on the 5, top on the 9 should get you a 1 rail posistion on the 2, then top on the 2 should put qball on bottom left of picture for 4 in the side.After looking a little harder I see I am about a week late with my suggestion, oh well, my post count will still increase
 
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I don't seem fat from the inside of me. However, looking at the outside it becomes more apparent.
This is one of the funniest things I've seen on AZ in a while. I'm right there with ya. My self-image is still 18 years old, but my reflection is 33. :o
 
If possible, you want to learn HOW to move the cue ball in any direction,
before worrying about WHERE you should move it.
Sort of like: it's not useful to know the best route to get to Madison, WI... if I don't know how to drive yet.

So, right now you cannot draw easily.
I have what I consider the best draw-learning trick of all time. I'm surprised it hasn't caught on more.

1. Set up a straight in shot into the corner or side pocket.
Try a distance you're uncomfortable with (like 2 diamonds between cue ball and object ball).

2. Chalk the crap out of your cue (good habit anyway on all draw shots).

3. Replace the cue ball with the 9 ball. Rotate the 9 so that the numbers are on the shot line
and set up the yellow stripe so that it's perfectly level with the table.

4. Line up with a level cue to hit the bottom of the white circle around the number 9.
See this pic:

LtG9nIS.png




5. Keep the cue DEAD LEVEL and stroke straight through that spot.
Hit firm but you don't have to strain. If you hit the sweet spot, you will
get maximum draw with minimum speed and effort.

To get the cue level you might need to flatten out your bridge hand a lot.
If you have trouble with this, try shooting with an open bridge... just for learning purposes.
Later on you can figure out how to get it that low with a closed bridge, if you want.

99% of the time, players do not hit low enough.
In fact, not only do they start out aiming too high, but they don't hit where they aim...
they try to force the shot and by "muscling" it. Their tip rises up at the end of their stroke.
Then you end up hitting higher than than where you were aiming.

Many times I'v heard people SWEAR they hit low, but in reality their tip hit center ball, or even above.

So what we've done by heavily chalking in step 2 is given you a way to see where your tip hit.
After the shot, lift up the 9 ball. Look for the blue chalk mark your tip made. Is it at the bottom
of the circle? If you hit firmly, but got no draw, I guarantee it wasn't.
So, pick up the 9 ball, wipe off that chalk mark, and try again (chalking the cue heavily every time).
Keep trying until you hit that sweet spot at the bottom of the circle.
Even coming close will get good draw.

Remember also to keep that cue level. One trick to help with this is to lower your back hand
until you feel the cue bump the rail. Then go ahead and bring it up just an inch or two
so you can swing the cue without smacking your back hand into the rail.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The enumerated steps in CreeDo’s above advice for ingraining proven draw stroke fundamentals into your muscle memory are excellent, as is the use of the edge-limit of the encircling white portion of the number as a gauge while establishing your ideal cue tip contact point.

I use a very similar numbered ball gauging system for local students learning to draw consistently well, but I add one important step that (a) simultaneously reinforces the gradually-learned precise CB maximal draw contact point, and (b) in a fool-proof way allows them to easily set up on that contact point’s relative height (or “lowness”) when they proceed to the normal situation of striking the actual cue ball:

After the student can (fairly consistently) repeatedly stroke into that productive lower portion of a numbered ball’s white circle, I have them carefully notice how far above the cloth their tip is in terms of a tip width, tip-and-a-half, etc.

For the student, *distance above the cloth* then reflexively becomes a kind of “always available” gauge that seasoned players with a reliable and repeatable draw stroke have generally learned to unconsciously incorporate into their pre-shot routine for draw.

Arnaldo
 
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