Not a fan of "Low deflection" shaft...help me understand !!!

[8onthebreak]

I've heard a lot of GOOD pool players say lately that they are not a fan of low deflection shafts...

I don't understand how anyone would not be using a low deflection shaft!

Deflection is not a good thing, right?

The more deflection, the more room for error, right?

I understand that ideally, you shouldn't be using much of the outside of the cue ball, but lets face it...WE ALL get into situations where you have to put some junk on the cue ball.

I just wanted to hear from some of the folks that don't use low deflection...please help me understand, I'm keeping an open mind because I know there's a lot of people who feel that way. I just never had anyone actually tell me what is running through their mind on the subject.

This is an honest attempt to solicit opinions, not an I'm right, you're stupid session. Please limit any ridiculous responses.

 

[dr9ball]

Perhaps the question is how "Low" deflection is enough. I grew up playing with maple cues and a variety of ferrules. I've learned to compensate for deflection in my aim. I don't like the hit of the LD shafts. Currently there are no "Zero" deflection shafts on the market that have truly no deflection. So even with the Predators, OB-1s etc the shooter has to adjust for deflection, just less than with other cues. There are solid maple shafts that have lower deflection than some others. At the end of the day it's up to the player to still make an adjustment/compensation when using sidespin, whether it be by changing aiming point or by some combination of back hand or front hand english.

The shafts marketed as LD have gained much popularity over the years. The aren't required to play good pool or even professional pool, just like people have learned that a layered tip or Kaumi (or other high priced chalk) doesn't solve all the problems with their game.

Players have choices in what equipment they purchase. The hard part is convincing some that when they miss a shot it more often than not caused by something they did and not the gear they purchased. Buying a new cue, shaft, chalk, tip etc. is a much easier route than seeking instruction and putting in the work required to better one's game.

My advice to you if you want it (it's free). Find an equipment setup that "you" like. Then develop your knowledge base of the game from what ever level it currently is. Put in the practice of this knowledge so you can see an improvement in your game and skills then go challenge yourself by playing in competition.

I believe that in the long run, if you worry more about what you do when you step to the table and less about what pro or anyone else says about this or that shaft the better your game will be. That's my opinion, others will have their say as well. Good Luck in achieving your pool goals.

 

[8onthebreak]

Dr9...You bring up good points.

I agree with you. No equipment is a magic pill, yet we spend thousands on what we like.

I agree that no shaft is ZERO deflection and you must still compensate either way...but the MORE you have to compensate the more risk you run of missing the shot right?

In other-words...if you only had to compensate 1/4 inch and you mistakenly calculated 1/2 inch...you still run a VERY good chance of pocketing the object ball...

Now compare that to someone who has to compensate 1"...and mistakenly compensates 2" There is almost no chance that he will pocket the object ball.

Same error, very different outcomes.

I'm not at all suggesting that its difficult to adjust for squirt, just like a player can learn to compensate for a J-hook in their stroke, or a poor stance, high humidity, slow playing rails, or any other "less than ideal" situation, but it adds risk UN-necessarily doesn't it?

Help me understand.

 

[AtLarge]

... I don't understand how anyone would not be using a low deflection shaft!...

Since you are pretty new here, I don't know whether you have yet discovered the treasure trove of information available on the website of Dave Alciatore ("Dr. Dave"): http://billiards.colostate.edu/

On the topic of the pros and cons of low-deflection shafts, here is what Dr. Dave's website has to say: http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/cue.html#low_squirt

 

[Ratta]

Each shaft has deflection-one has more, one has less.
Stay with your equipment, enjoy shooting and get firm with YOUR cue.

lg
Ingo

 

[Jaden]

BHE is more accurate than experiential adjustment....

I've heard a lot of GOOD pool players say lately that they are not a fan of low deflection shafts...

I don't understand how anyone would not be using a low deflection shaft!

Deflection is not a good thing, right?

The more deflection, the more room for error, right?

I understand that ideally, you shouldn't be using much of the outside of the cue ball, but lets face it...WE ALL get into situations where you have to put some junk on the cue ball.

I just wanted to hear from some of the folks that don't use low deflection...please help me understand, I'm keeping an open mind because I know there's a lot of people who feel that way. I just never had anyone actually tell me what is running through their mind on the subject.

This is an honest attempt to solicit opinions, not an I'm right, you're stupid session. Please limit any ridiculous responses.

BHE is more accurate than experiential adjustment with LD shafts...

BHE is easier to use than manual or experiential adjustment using LD because LD doesn't equate to no "D".

Jaden

 

[Jaden]

Not Really....

Dr9...You bring up good points.

I agree with you. No equipment is a magic pill, yet we spend thousands on what we like.

I agree that no shaft is ZERO deflection and you must still compensate either way...but the MORE you have to compensate the more risk you run of missing the shot right?

In other-words...if you only had to compensate 1/4 inch and you mistakenly calculated 1/2 inch...you still run a VERY good chance of pocketing the object ball...

Now compare that to someone who has to compensate 1"...and mistakenly compensates 2" There is almost no chance that he will pocket the object ball.

Same error, very different outcomes.

I'm not at all suggesting that its difficult to adjust for squirt, just like a player can learn to compensate for a J-hook in their stroke, or a poor stance, high humidity, slow playing rails, or any other "less than ideal" situation, but it adds risk UN-necessarily doesn't it?

Help me understand.

If you look into BHE and start practicing it, you'll find that while in some minority of cases you have to manually or "feel" compensate, the vast majority of shots at the vast majority of speeds are easy to use as much side spin as you want with BHE...

Jaden

 

[donny mills]

What is bhe?

In my experience ld shafts make a lot of inside English shots much easier. So much that I'm only impressed with inside English when the shooter is using a regular shaft.

 

[Jaden]

BHE is back hand english Donny.

What is bhe?

In my experience ld shafts make a lot of inside English shots much easier. So much that I'm only impressed with inside English when the shooter is using a regular shaft.

Once you find a shafts pivot point, you aim like you're shooting a center ball shot and then leaving your bridge in place, you pivot your cue for the amount of side spin you want and stroke straight through the ball on the new line.


Efren taught it to me back in 99 and then I started using it after me and a friend talked about it in 2002, the friend's name is Chip Klein.

I think he's living back your way these days if you ever run into him, ask him about it, he'll explain it to you.

Jaden

 

[The Renfro]

I use BHE almost exclusively and have for years... LD vs Regular only changes the pivot point........ Plus with my engineered LD I get radial consistency... You might get that with a standard shaft but if you do it is likely thru sheer luck.......

 

[Jaden]

yes that is true...

I use BHE almost exclusively and have for years... LD vs Regular only changes the pivot point........ Plus with my engineered LD I get radial consistency... You might get that with a standard shaft but if you do it is likely thru sheer luck.......

Although typical LD shafts have a VERY long pivot point that is cumbersome for some people to use with BHE.

I am experimenting with a LD type shaft to get a wider pivot point with some success...

Jaden

 

[The Renfro]

Jaden When I was doing the same type thing I figured out that there is shaft deflection and tip deflection.... I had my cue maker put a carbon fiber pad under my tip and while not really adding much endmass it did add a little to the deflection which made the cue play more to my liking because it shortened the pivot point some......

 

[Jaden]

Yeah I've had ideas about that....

Jaden When I was doing the same type thing I figured out that there is shaft deflection and tip deflection.... I had my cue maker put a carbon fiber pad under my tip and while not really adding much endmass it did add a little to the deflection which made the cue play more to my liking because it shortened the pivot point some......

Me and Colin Colenso used to get into some heated debates on here... It was funny because most of the time, we were thinking the same thing but wording it differently.

Then Colin left and I was stuck arguing with PJ.... Man that guy is a douche...

I used to play with a predator sneaky with an original 314. I ended up drilling out the foam core, cutting off the ferule and adding a new hard wood tenon with a standard ferule, most people who hit with that cue, said it was one of the best hitting cues they ever played with.

Jaden

Jaden

 

[Donkey Puncher]

I agree with Donnie on the inside English.

There are some shots that I simply CANNOT shoot with a standard shaft, and I don't really see how anyone does.

Example: A drag and run shot which uses a little bit of low to kill the speed, and extreme inside to "run" up the rail. If using this much English on a standard shaft, not much spin is transferred, because the end of the shaft is too busy deflecting away from the cueball.

It is much easier to miscue with a standard shaft because of this aspect as well.

It all boils down to tip-end-mass. The lower mass on the end of your shaft, the less the cue ball wants to deflect away from the line of aim.

 

[West Point 1987]

I've never had problems doing that or any other inside english shot with a standard shaft. I think "squirt" is grossly over-rated...I shot with a Schon for 15 years, and that's considered one of the highest "squirting" shafts out there, and believe me the amount of compensation is tiny...especially with BHE. LD shafts tend to be more forgiving with unintended english, so I'll give them that. I just can't stand the dead feel you get from the hollow end. Short ferrules on a standard shaft with euro taper is another thing, altogether. Don't mind those at all, but they're really standard shafts, too in the end. I also appreciate the advantages to having a radially sound shaft for consistency, but nothing compares to a God-made natural maple shaft, once you've found one that works for you, it feels like it has nerves in it. Pretty soon you forget you're compensating, you just line up, visualize success, pull the trigger and voila!

 

[Bustah360]

I've played with rock maple shafts for years. Younger, I remember when we spoke about the different levels of deflection, by asking, "how much [whip] does your shaft have? I can't take away the feeling and action you get off a good rock maple shaft. These new shafts with all the engineering behind is a nice idea for most players out there from what I've seen (majority using predator). The biggest problem I find is that playing with one of those low deflection shafts feels lifeless and hollow. Might as well play with the back end of a plastic ktichen broom from the local 99 cents store. Whatever happened to feeling a shot? How'd everything get so unecessarily technical?

People feel that deflection causes unwanted "squirt". That it might contribute to shooting less accuracy and miscues. I guess I'm old school because I learned to compensate all that with a well developed stroke to avoid miscue, and trusting your eyes for "feeling" the shot.

Hey, this never bothered guys like Mosconi right? Decades of shafts made this way is best IMHO. Like the man said, "its a piece of wood and its got nerves."

 

[JMW]

The biggest problem I find is that playing with one of those low deflection shafts feels lifeless and hollow. Might as well play with the back end of a plastic ktichen broom from the local 99 cents store. Whatever happened to feeling a shot? How'd everything get so unecessarily technical?

I agree with the feel issue. But I have found an LD shaft with a great feel...
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=252474

 

[The Chinchilla]

In 50 years the playing shaft market will be almost at 100% LD i bet.

 

[dr9ball]

Chinchilla, you may be right, but just how low will the deflection be?

 

[RRfireblade]

In 50 years the playing shaft market will be almost at 100% LD i bet.

Ill bet you in less than that it will be almost 100% laminate shafts but that has nothing do with deflection.

Look, there's no answer to this debate so stop trying to find one. Retailers need to make money, to make money you need to give people a reason to buy. To stay in business you need to give them a reason to buy again. LD shafts are new/er and different. Better? Better than what? Everyone has their own answer and no one is right or wrong but the fact that any debate continues to exist is what keep the business machine running. LD is great sounding technical term and it helps that most people don't truly understand what it means. Add to that the diminishing availability of quality old growth shaft wood and thats where we're at.

The bottom line is you don't have to understand and it doesn't have to work for you. If you do and it does? Go play and get more people playing because that's what we really need right now. If it doesn't? Then go do the same.