Not Enough Sponsors YET for FREE Streams
- Thread starter Johnnyt
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RBC
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With the very limited margins in the pool industry and the different relationships between manufacturer, distributor, and dealer, this is a very difficult thing to do effectively. Pretty much any way you do it, someone in the food chain gets screwed.in my furniture industry, "marketing" is taking a new definition. it is no longer feasible to spend $10K-$100K per show, especially when the buyers can't afford to attend and/or they have no credit to order. instead, they are pulling out of the shows & redirecting that savings as promos/discounts for the buyers. they use their team of sales reps & monthly eblasts, which costs them nothing - win/win.
This is way way outside our budgets. Remember, there is furniture in every household in every city. There aren't quite as many pool players.
where is the bulk of OB Cues's customer base?
Our market is pretty much global. We have been primarily in the US, but over the last few years we have grown our international business.
in the 3 halls in my city, none of them televise pool. ever. but they have at least 5 flatscreens showing golf, football, Nascar, news, etc. (and i'm real sure that they have no OB signage.)
what if yáll figured out a way to get the "free streams" into the pool halls & in front of the regulars, who would rather be playing than sitting at home watching & paying? you could multiply your exposure by 20X-50X. while also introducing everyone to the Pros & events (only 10% can barely name 3 pros & 1 is The Black Widow).
I kind of agree with this, but I don't do streams. I've often suggested that the PPV's should work to get pool rooms having pool watching parties. Bringing customers in strictly for the purpose of watching pool. So far no one has had any success at that.The reason I suggest it with PPV's is because of the value. Pool players are more likely to go to a pool room to watch than they are to pay for it themselves. The cost of the stream should be a good investment for the room as he will have customers in his establishment to watch. He can serve them food and drink. Unfortunately, those that tried this met pretty strong opposition by the rooms.
discounts & commissions for sales/referrals (with a special code on your signage) wouldn't hurt either.
Again, I think most who are not in the pool industry think that it is much bigger than it is.
Royce
RBC
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Johnnyt
If just a few others did the same thing, there would be no need for streamers to opt for PPV. But, the facts are that most all streamers are looking for a way to generate enough revenue to survive. Meaning that not enough of those who enjoy the streams are willing to chip in.
Royce
RBC
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Yes he does!
And we help him to do that with sponsorship $ so he can stream for free.
I just wish we could do more.
Royce
RBC
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Johnnyt
I understand this but I don't think it's the whole picture.
Sure, it seems wrong to take a free service and sell it to someone else. But I don't think that's what they are doing. There are lots of expense to do what they do, travel, hotels, meals, equipment, etc. In most cases, they can't hold down a normal job and do this as well, so it's also their form of income. If they can acquire enough in sponsorship (advertising) money to cover the expenses and make a little for themselves, then they don't opt for PPV. If they come up short, they either have to find a source of revenue or look for something else to do for a living.
In an earlier post, you mentioned that you regularly donate to free streams. I think this is a perfect solution. Believe me, that if there was enough revenue from that, there wouldn't be any PPV streams.
Royce
RBC
Deceased
I'll wrap up my involvement with this.
Pool is a sport that most of us play for entertainment. Much like going to the movies is entertainment. We expect to spend money to go do something that we enjoy. It's the fruit of our labor and how we choose to spend our discretionary income.
When it comes to viewing entertainment, we have lots of options.
We can watch broadcast television for no more cost than a TV and an antenna. Broadcast TV stations raise their revenue by selling commercials. This works because the TV markets are local, and local business' can benefit and grow their business by advertising there. The amount that those business' can pay is dependent on the amount of revenue it brings them. The local stations sell the "local" spots only shown locally, and the network that they are affiliated with sell the "National" spots.
We can watch Cable TV for no more than the monthly cost of the TV and the Cable subscription. This works also for the same reasons as local broadcast TV, but also because the Cable stations will sell advertising as well. In this case, the Cable company sells the National spots, and the local spots.
We can go to the theater and watch a movie. Of course they don't show them for free either.
So the facts are that there's no such thing as a free puppy! If we all like to watch pool streaming, and pool streaming costs money, then somehow we (I am a pool consumer too) will have to be involved in paying for it. Whether it's by paying for a PPV, or making a donation, or by enough of us buying products advertised by the sponsors doesn't really matter. Whichever way the revenue comes in, it will come from the consumer base, and the business side will adjust to provide the entertainment in exchange for the revenue. It's simply free commerce. Demand (revenue) will create the supply (streaming entertainment).
It's been fun guys, but I have to go back to work now.
Thanks
Royce
Pool is a sport that most of us play for entertainment. Much like going to the movies is entertainment. We expect to spend money to go do something that we enjoy. It's the fruit of our labor and how we choose to spend our discretionary income.
When it comes to viewing entertainment, we have lots of options.
We can watch broadcast television for no more cost than a TV and an antenna. Broadcast TV stations raise their revenue by selling commercials. This works because the TV markets are local, and local business' can benefit and grow their business by advertising there. The amount that those business' can pay is dependent on the amount of revenue it brings them. The local stations sell the "local" spots only shown locally, and the network that they are affiliated with sell the "National" spots.
We can watch Cable TV for no more than the monthly cost of the TV and the Cable subscription. This works also for the same reasons as local broadcast TV, but also because the Cable stations will sell advertising as well. In this case, the Cable company sells the National spots, and the local spots.
We can go to the theater and watch a movie. Of course they don't show them for free either.
So the facts are that there's no such thing as a free puppy! If we all like to watch pool streaming, and pool streaming costs money, then somehow we (I am a pool consumer too) will have to be involved in paying for it. Whether it's by paying for a PPV, or making a donation, or by enough of us buying products advertised by the sponsors doesn't really matter. Whichever way the revenue comes in, it will come from the consumer base, and the business side will adjust to provide the entertainment in exchange for the revenue. It's simply free commerce. Demand (revenue) will create the supply (streaming entertainment).
It's been fun guys, but I have to go back to work now.
Thanks
Royce
you'd be surprised how often KK9 & i say: wow, pool is just like furniture.
splintered. disorganized. lacking in marketing & communication skills.
but when times are tough, it's the smart ones who join forces, think outside of the box, & will remain standing.
if your advertising budget is <$10K/yr & spent on sponsoring streams that can barely sustain themselves, for viewers who don't want to pay and/or can't watch - how's that working for you?
the AZB ads & stream/Pro tourney sponsorships, cater to your EXISTING customer base. what about everyone else, your PROSPECTS?
there are approx 600 players in our city of 100K. 7, are on AZB and know of the pros. 4, watch the streams. 200+/- have their own cues. to my knowledge, none of them have OBs.
why?
beer/liquor don't need to sponsor anything. they give away props to all halls - signs, lights, pendants, outdoor umbrellas. they run promos @ $.50 off beer & give a free Corona beer huggie (that costs $.05 from China). coasters have their logos.
i'm sure you have territorial reps on commission only, who cover your dealers/retail stores. and that should also include dealers/pool halls. i have never seen from any of yáll, a stack of flyers (or posted), regarding a stream or tourney (with sponsors' logos).
why?
these are cheap fixes, that can be googled & executed with a phone call and a mailing/email. if potential customers don't know about the pros & streams, and/or they can't watch them while playing - then perhaps it's time yáll get together & out of the "kitchen"?
RBC
Deceased
PinkLady
First, The comment that you quoted was in response the your suggestion about discounts and coupons. They just aren't feasible from the manufacturer in our industry.
Now, if you think the furniture industry and the pool industry are anywhere close to each other you're mistaken. There's probably as much furniture business done in Dallas Texas as there is pool business in the entire country. Keep in mind that pool table sales are not pool business, they are furniture business.
Now, I'm sorry but I'm not going to discuss my advertising budget on a public forum.
The original discussion of this thread was about streams and whether or not they should be free. Some said it's the industry's problem to fix, assuming the money is already there and the industry is just being greedy. I tried to explain how the industry is really smaller than most believe.
As for the streams, they are not free. If the providers can't raise the revenue from advertising needed to put them on, then they must go to PPV to raise it. If the public doesn't want to pay the PPV fees, then streams will go away. It's really that simple. All the revenue comes from the consumer base. Whether it comes from PPV, donations, or selling ads, it all begins when a consumer spends his hard earned dollars on something he likes.
As for OB Cues and how we market, that's a whole different topic. Please don't take this as a negative, but I'm not going to discuss it with someone I don't know on a public forum. It's not public business. Now, our company is probably one of the fastest growing companies in the industry, so I think our marketing is working pretty well. Actually, we are working hard to bring our production capacity up, which is a whole different discussion. And we increased production just last year as well.
So, when it comes to streams, if people want to watch them, then people have to financially support them in some fashion. It's very simple economics.
Royce
my previous posts were moreover directed generally at all involved in these scenarios - not singling OB Cues out - and i value your input & respect your privacy.
i am fully aware of the hard costs to produce yáll's pool streams. and you're right - most herein do not know how expensive it is, much less how difficult it is to raise the $$$$. they consist of at least 2 people, 2 days travel, and 1+/+ days streaming, hotel, food, gas, not to mention all the prep that goes into it - they don't work for free!
forget any streaming fluxes, cause we get those worked out on the chat room or AZB (thanks SloMo!). what i've witnessed, as has JT, is a decline in attendance of even the FREE streams. (this is where it affects the sponsors.) it's for various reasons - personal preference of players, work, playing pool, other plans, no loop throughout the night to cover all time zones. plus, wherever we are, we can check AZB via cell or ipad & get the play-by-play (for free). we personally have no problem PPVing, and donated to POV's free stream w/ OMGWTF.
but if the streamers/promoters don't have the viewership of hard-core members like us herein, then why would sponsors continue paying to advertise when their dollars could be better spent elsewhere? it's a viscious cycle. i was throwing an idea of new business on the table, via pool room streams.
and much like furniture, it's all about sales & "workin' it".
my previous posts were moreover directed generally at all involved in these scenarios - not singling OB Cues out - and i value your input & respect your privacy.
i am fully aware of the hard costs to produce yáll's pool streams. and you're right - most herein do not know how expensive it is, much less how difficult it is to raise the $$$$. they consist of at least 2 people, 2 days travel, and 1+/+ days streaming, hotel, food, gas, not to mention all the prep that goes into it - they don't work for free!
forget any streaming fluxes, cause we get those worked out on the chat room or AZB (thanks SloMo!). what i've witnessed, as has JT, is a decline in attendance of even the FREE streams. (this is where it affects the sponsors.) it's for various reasons - personal preference of players, work, playing pool, other plans, no loop throughout the night to cover all time zones. plus, wherever we are, we can check AZB via cell or ipad & get the play-by-play (for free). we personally have no problem PPVing, and donated to POV's free stream w/ OMGWTF.
but if the streamers/promoters don't have the viewership of hard-core members like us herein, then why would sponsors continue paying to advertise when their dollars could be better spent elsewhere? it's a viscious cycle. i was throwing an idea of new business on the table, via pool room streams.
and much like furniture, it's all about sales & "workin' it".
wish pool players understood "workin it", pool might be in a better place.
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What's the difference from PPV and free streams that seem to use a webcam? I have paid for PPV and have watched free streams. Not much difference when the TV table isn't being used, I don't see a quality angle of another table being used. Who decides if it's free or not and where does the money go? I don't mind paying here and there but it's a tournament. Who decides who plays on the TV table or is it random? Nothing like paying to watch someone practice until the next match. Not like most people can be glued to their computer for hours on end.
After reading this and other threads on streams I've come to the conclusion that streaming in the U.S hasn't moved up much in 10 years. Streamers still can't say you will receive what you paid for or that you will get a refund if you don't. Most fans in the first few years of streaming were willing to overlook a lot of things as long as they could see top players that they would never see live any other way. Well now just about everyone has seen the few top players from the U.S and most of the top players from around the world and only a very few are willing to pay to see now. Johnnyt
Are you kidding. Pool Players Actually Watch Pool?
You're all missing the point. I was at the CSI Invitational where we had thousands of people there who are obviously pool players who could watch the best players in the world play for free. FACT the stands were nearly empty for most of the matches.
I golf and I watch golf. For whatever reasons pool players refuse to watch the best of the best in their sport even if it cost nothing. Seems incredible to me but it's a fact.
You're all missing the point. I was at the CSI Invitational where we had thousands of people there who are obviously pool players who could watch the best players in the world play for free. FACT the stands were nearly empty for most of the matches.
I golf and I watch golf. For whatever reasons pool players refuse to watch the best of the best in their sport even if it cost nothing. Seems incredible to me but it's a fact.
In the mid 70's Jim Rempe, Ray Martin, Irving Crane, and a few more "pros" came to my college town with over 35,000 students on campus....and played a tournament (sponsored by a beer company) in the student center. They set up some seating and charged a small admission. Ended up just giving away tickets and still had trouble getting people to watch. Pool simply isn't a spectator sport...that's just the truth.
Let me say what Royce is too polite to say: Most pool players are cheap.
I really think vimeo is the way to do it for individual matches.
Streams (as a few have noted) really can't be PPV...because you may not get to see who you want to see play. But if you want the streams to continue, and the quality to improve ... it will require money. Consistent money. Money that makes people get out of bed. Affords commentators who care and are good. Provides bandwidth to upload, or motivation to edit.
I'm a novice, and I do it sheerly to benefit people. No one's ever donated to me. I have a couple hundred thousand youtube views...many people who criticize my remarks (which are made while I'm level with the table which was poor planning) and video...which I paid to give them for free!! Isn't that comical?
I have spend 3000+ between equipment, employees and the players.
There is a base out there of people who do contribute, but 400-600 viewers of a free stream probably means 50 people might pay $5. EVEN THAT would be more than what most of them probably get.
I'm tempted to take all my videos down, post teasers on youtube with links to vimeo for $5. I have many matches that I've yet to edit and upload; orcollo, schmidt, pagulayan, reyes, etc. If my efforts were motivated by the hope that it'd cover my cost of living I would be resentful.
My only motivation to do it would be to catalog the players. I would do it non-profit: 100% to the players and equipment...but I doubt even then that the industry would pay for itself.
OB Cues, Predator, TAR, CSI, are wonderful. And pretty soon, hopefully accu-stat will join us in the 21st century and have a rental section with matches that are greater than 240x320 at 15fps.