Notice The Top Pros Jumping Less?

[risky biz]

Why didn't you just say that in the first place? "I don't like it" is a better argument than using faulty logic to try to justify why the players shouldn't be doing it.

It's your logic that's faulty unless you can show me someone who does jump shots without bouncing balls.

 

[Masayoshi]

It's your logic that's faulty unless you can show me someone who does jump shots without bouncing balls.

No, you were trying to imply that because pros sometimes lose control of jump shots, that jump shots shouldn't be allowed any more than crawling on the table should be allowed.

That logic is faulty because the pros lose control on all kinds of shots. If we banned all shots that pros can lose control on, there wouldnt be many shots allowed.

Your "I dont like bouncing balls" is an opinion and thus does not fall under the same level of logical scrutiny like an argument would. Therefore it is much more sound of you to say that rather than what you were saying previously.

 

[randallt6]

Cool. An anti-jump cue thread, original.

Can't wait for chapter 2 - Whats wrong with pool and of course Chapter 3, whats the best cue.



For the record I've never met anyone who would be considered a "Pro" that couldn't kick proficiently OR that had no idea at all where the cue ball was going to go after a jump. But I could be the odd ball on that one.

This isn't an anti jump thread...... Not sure if your thinking clearly or not but the OP simply stated his observation that pro's are kicking more these days instead of jumping.....

But thanks for your awesome input.

 

[Ratta]

The safety game itself increased in my opinion.
And at least it s just about percentages. If a jump shot would have higher percentage for doing it successful, the jump-shot would be choosen.
And if the kick-shot would give the player a higher-percentage to success....then the kick-shot would be the choice.

 

[risky biz]

No, you were trying to imply that because pros sometimes lose control of jump shots, that jump shots shouldn't be allowed any more than crawling on the table should be allowed.

That logic is faulty because the pros lose control on all kinds of shots. If we banned all shots that pros can lose control on, there wouldnt be many shots allowed.

Your "I dont like bouncing balls" is an opinion and thus does not fall under the same level of logical scrutiny like an argument would. Therefore it is much more sound of you to say that rather than what you were saying previously.

Kicks and masses don't cause bouncing balls unless executed very, very poorly. Jump shots cause bouncing balls by their very nature and shouldn't be allowed on a pool table.

 

[Masayoshi]

Kicks and masses don't cause bouncing balls unless executed very, very poorly. Jump shots cause bouncing balls by their very nature and shouldn't be allowed on a pool table.

Exactly. Stick to your "I don't like bouncing balls" opinion and stay away from the debate and argument side of it. That opinion is not wrong, but the argument you presented before that was wrong.

One correction, though. Masses and kicks at speed necessarily cause bouncing balls even when executed perfectly. For masses the bounce is caused by the elevation of the cue, for kicks, the bounce is caused by the rail not being set at the exact height of the center of the cue ball.

Essentially any shot at speed will cause the balls to bounce slightly because it is impossible to shoot with a perfectly level cue. I guess if you had your way, pool tables would have a speed limit placed on them.

 

[RRfireblade]

Wow, not even sure what to say to you. I honestly thought you were be faceatous for the sake of making a point....

That's unadulterated poop. Anyone who has watched any match live or videos have seen plenty of examples of pros missing the object ball completely. So you can say "destroyed your entire premise" all you want but anyone reading what you're saying knows you're wrong.

But it's interesting that you're now revising your pretension to "a straight in shot".

You have quite a unique level of reading comprehension don't you?

You argued that since there are videos of Pros missing jump shots THEREFORE it must mean that Pros are not capable of jumping with any means of control.

I countered with, if your arguement had a shred of validity, then any video of a Pro missing a straight in shot would prove that they the can not make a straight in shot with control. This , obvious to most, proves that your arguement is completely flawed and meaningless in context.

Now, just to recal your own statement for a second time, your original arguement was that when a Pro jumps, his best 'hope' is that he mearly keeps the ball on the table. Obviously that is such a rediculous statement its hard to type a response with a straight face. I defy you to find a single Pro in the history of the game that would admit that when they jump, they have no intention to do anything more than keep the ball from bouncing off the table. Pros have clearly been jumping, with control and WITH the intent to make a ball for years and years and years. Even back before jump cues were invented. There are thousands of books and DVDs available teaching precisely how to do it and showing it being done. It simply can not be denied.

With that out of the way...

Kicks and masses don't cause bouncing balls unless executed very, very poorly. Jump shots cause bouncing balls by their very nature and shouldn't be allowed on a pool table.

What are your thought on the break shot ?

A very average speed break shot bounces the ball a number of times and cause burns and bounce marks on the cloth each and every break.

Are you also against the hard break shot?

 

[Johnnyt]

Wow, not even sure what to say to you. I honestly thought you were be faceatous for the sake of making a point....



You have quite a unique level of reading comprehension don't you?

You argued that since there are videos of Pros missing jump shots THEREFORE it must mean that Pros are not capable of jumping with any means of control.

I countered with, if your arguement had a shred of validity, then any video of a Pro missing a straight in shot would prove that they the can not make a straight in shot with control. This , obvious to most, proves that your arguement is completely flawed and meaningless in context.

Now, just to recal your own statement for a second time, your original arguement was that when a Pro jumps, his best 'hope' is that he mearly keeps the ball on the table. Obviously that is such a rediculous statement its hard to type a response with a straight face. I defy you to find a single Pro in the history of the game that would admit that when they jump, they have no intention to do anything more than keep the ball from bouncing off the table. Pros have clearly been jumping, with control and WITH the intent to make a ball for years and years and years. Even back before jump cues were invented. There are thousands of books and DVDs available teaching precisely how to do it and showing it being done. It simply can not be denied.

With that out of the way...




What are your thought on the break shot ?

A very average speed break shot bounces the ball a number of times and cause burns and bounce marks on the cloth each and every break.

Are you also against the hard break shot?

14.1 is kind to the table. Johnnyt

 

[incognito]

This is not consistent with reality. Lots of players still shoot jump cues and jump shots aren't going away. You clearly don't like jump shots or jump cues, so you likely just jumped to the conclusion (no pun intended) that less jump shots are being played based on a very small sample of evidence. You're a jump shot / jump cue hater and it looks like you're turning your perfect world fantasy of a world without jump shots and / or jump cues into reality. You probably just saw what you wanted to see.

I see more and more of the top pros going for the kick than going for their jump cue in the last year or so. For years before that it seemed like they would go to the air on almost every shot they couldn't hit even though it was an easy one rail kick or big ball out of the corner. Seems most have learned to kick much better to control the balls. Most jumps are a crapshoot where the CB will stop. Most have figured out that the jump is not the best option most of the time. Jump cues can=sell out sticks. Johnnyt

 

[RRfireblade]

14.1 is kind to the table. Johnnyt

As is 1P. Another great game.

 

[Johnnyt]

This is not consistent with reality. Lots of players still shoot jump cues and jump shots aren't going away. You clearly don't like jump shots or jump cues, so you likely just jumped to the conclusion (no pun intended) that less jump shots are being played based on a very small sample of evidence. You're a jump shot / jump cue hater and it looks like you're turning your perfect world fantasy of a world without jump shots and / or jump cues into reality. You probably just saw what you wanted to see.

Johnnyt "The jump-cue hater". LMAO. I like the sound of that though.

 

[incognito]

Put that on your azbilliards user title.

Johnnyt "The jump-cue hater". LMAO. I like the sound of that though.

 

[risky biz]

Exactly. Stick to your "I don't like bouncing balls" opinion and stay away from the debate and argument side of it. That opinion is not wrong, but the argument you presented before that was wrong.

One correction, though. Masses and kicks at speed necessarily cause bouncing balls even when executed perfectly. For masses the bounce is caused by the elevation of the cue, for kicks, the bounce is caused by the rail not being set at the exact height of the center of the cue ball.

Essentially any shot at speed will cause the balls to bounce slightly because it is impossible to shoot with a perfectly level cue. I guess if you had your way, pool tables would have a speed limit placed on them.

That isn't a correction. It's a miserably failed argument. You're implying that you have the only logical argument then immediately veer off into nonsense by equating a jump shot with the POSSIBLE tiny elevation of a cue ball from the kind of slight masse' that would be used in competition or the negligible amount that a ball MIGHT elevate when leaving a cushion.

Jump shots jump over an ENTIRE ball or balls and land with a crashing sound often speading the balls randomly like it's a new break.

Get real. Why isn't it debatable whether a competition pool table should or should not be turned into a circus act?

I guess some people think it's cool to hunt elk from a helicopter but even other hunters probably despise them.

 

[risky biz]

You have quite a unique level of reading comprehension don't you?

You argued that since there are videos of Pros missing jump shots THEREFORE it must mean that Pros are not capable of jumping with any means of control.

No I didn't. I asked why it so often is the case that even top level pros can't even minimally control the cue ball or the balls that it lands on.

You can rewrite everything I say all you want but don't make the mistake of thinking that it's convincing or confusing anyone.

It's usually evident that someone feels they have the short end of the facts when they say "reading comprehension" and declare the debate over because . . . yeah surprise, because "I won it."

I countered with, if your arguement had a shred of validity, then any video of a Pro missing a straight in shot would prove that they the can not make a straight in shot with control. This , obvious to most, proves that your arguement is completely flawed and meaningless in context.

You haven't explained yet why you only want to talk about straight-in shots. I never mentioned straight-in shots. In any case, if you're watching pool on planet earth like I am, then you should know that very few shots are straight-in and requiring a video of one as the only possible proof of a point is a gaffe proposition. But then, you and everyone else knows that, don't we?

Now, just to recal your own statement for a second time, your original arguement was that when a Pro jumps, his best 'hope' is that he mearly keeps the ball on the table. Obviously that is such a rediculous statement its hard to type a response with a straight face.

You can't possibly be serious. Why would it be any players best hope that the balls go off the table?

I defy you to find a single Pro in the history of the game that would admit that when they jump, they have no intention to do anything more than keep the ball from bouncing off the table.

Of course not. They have every intention of making their shot and getting great shape for the next shot. But then, so often, what we get is- THUUUMP!.......bounce...bounce...bounce

Everyone is well aware of the fact that the audience holds it's breath just before a jump shot is let off. Why is that?

Pros have clearly been jumping, with control and WITH the intent to make a ball for years and years and years. Even back before jump cues were invented. There are thousands of books and DVDs available teaching precisely how to do it and showing it being done. It simply can not be denied..

There's no denying that the edit feature on video cameras is one of the most ingenious inventions ever.

With that out of the way...

What are your thought on the break shot ?

A very average speed break shot bounces the ball a number of times and cause burns and bounce marks on the cloth each and every break.

Are you also against the hard break shot?

Why are you asking? Do you think we should be able to throw a sledge hammer at the rack?

 

[Masayoshi]

That isn't a correction. It's a miserably failed argument. You're implying that you have the only logical argument then immediately veer off into nonsense by equating a jump shot with the POSSIBLE tiny elevation of a cue ball from the kind of slight masse' that would be used in competition or the negligible amount that a ball MIGHT elevate when leaving a cushion.

Jump shots jump over an ENTIRE ball or balls and land with a crashing sound often speading the balls randomly like it's a new break.

Get real. Why isn't it debatable whether a competition pool table should or should not be turned into a circus act?

I guess some people think it's cool to hunt elk from a helicopter but even other hunters probably despise them.

You said bouncing not crashing, so I am right in correcting you. And it still would be a correction even if you originally said crashing because it is possible to hit non jumps with a crashing sound just as it is possible to hit jumps without a crashing sound.

Jumping is not a circus act any more than any other specialty shot is a circus act. Maybe you should stipulate "no crashing sounds" before you gamble with anyone or play in a tournament...I wonder how many people would agree to your rules...

Your hunting analogy is completely off base. Hunting from a helicopter takes away skill and sport from hunting. Jumping ADDS skill to pool. Jumping can be done well and it can be done poorly, those who are making "crashing" sounds like you describe, are most likely doing it poorly.

 

[risky biz]

You said bouncing not crashing, so I am right in correcting you. And it still would be a correction even if you originally said crashing because it is possible to hit non jumps with a crashing sound just as it is possible to hit jumps without a crashing sound.

Jumping is not a circus act any more than any other specialty shot is a circus act. Maybe you should stipulate "no crashing sounds" before you gamble with anyone or play in a tournament...I wonder how many people would agree to your rules...

Your hunting analogy is completely off base. Hunting from a helicopter takes away skill and sport from hunting. Jumping ADDS skill to pool. Jumping can be done well and it can be done poorly, those who are making "crashing" sounds like you describe, are most likely doing it poorly.

Yes, it's amazing how a truly expert jump shot artist quietly glides the cue ball up into the air and the click it makes when the object ball is skillfully pocketed is beyond belief. Absolutely beyond belief.

You don't seem to realize that shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than shooting from a rest position. It requires certain skills just like a jump shot does and they both degrade their respective sport/game.

 

[backplaying]

I'm not going to get on either side of the fence on jump cues/shots. But I will say this: I've successfully jumped and hit the last 7 or 8 balls I jumped at in Masters league (even made a couple of them). I can say that without a doubt, because of the proximity of other balls around the cueball or object ball, I would NOT have successfully kicked-at and made a good hit in those 7 or 8 shots.

For whatever that's worth!!!

Edit: I forgot to mention that in more than half of the matches I play, I never even have to reach for the jump cue. But then, there ARE those times when a kick-shot just won't do.

Maniac

I agree. There are times when a jump cue is a advantage over kicking. There was no jump cues when I played before, and I refused to get one for about a year after I started back playing. I found I was at a big disadvantage when playing a guy and he continued to jump balls and make them on my safties, or when he got out of line. I know before jump cues, I had a advantage over many by being able to masse well though. Many of us could also jump part of a ball with our playing cue also. If I owned a poolroom I wouldn't allow anyone practicing jumpshots though. It is hard on the table in many ways. I also want to add that many A players are better with jump cues than many pro's!

 

[Masayoshi]

Yes, it's amazing how a truly expert jump shot artist quietly glides the cue ball up into the air and the click it makes when the object ball is skillfully pocketed is beyond belief. Absolutely beyond belief.

Apparently you are using sarcasm because you think that jump shots can't be executed in that way, unfortunately for you, sarcasm in the style you are using is only effective toward your case when what you are describing is not possible. Jump shots like you just described ARE possible, so you just end up looking like a dork who can't use sarcasm correctly...

You don't seem to realize that shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than shooting from a rest position. It requires certain skills just like a jump shot does and they both degrade their respective sport/game.

I honestly doubt shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than tracking prey on the ground and getting close enough for a shot to kill it, but of that's your opinion, hey why not. You THINK they both degrade their respective sport and you are entitled to your opinion. That does not necessarily mean that they DO degrade the sport as that is a subjective quality and not quantitative in a discussion or argument.

 

[risky biz]

Originally Posted by risky biz
"Yes, it's amazing how a truly expert jump shot artist quietly glides the cue ball up into the air and the click it makes when the object ball is skillfully pocketed is beyond belief. Absolutely beyond belief."

Apparently you are using sarcasm because you think that jump shots can't be executed in that way, unfortunately for you, sarcasm in the style you are using is only effective toward your case when what you are describing is not possible. Jump shots like you just described ARE possible, so you just end up looking like a dork who can't use sarcasm correctly...

Keep believing.

I honestly doubt shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than tracking prey on the ground and getting close enough for a shot to kill it, but of that's your opinion, hey why not. You THINK they both degrade their respective sport and you are entitled to your opinion. That does not necessarily mean that they DO degrade the sport as that is a subjective quality and not quantitative in a discussion or argument.

This is what I said:
Quote:
"You don't seem to realize that shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than shooting from a rest position."

How is it that you can see the word "tracking" in that sentence when no one else can? Just like you see those quietly gliding cueballs?

Jump shots turn pocket billiards competition into a circus.

 

[Masayoshi]

Originally Posted by risky biz
"Yes, it's amazing how a truly expert jump shot artist quietly glides the cue ball up into the air and the click it makes when the object ball is skillfully pocketed is beyond belief. Absolutely beyond belief."



Keep believing.

Keep your head in the sand

This is what I said:
Quote:
"You don't seem to realize that shooting from a helicopter is more difficult than shooting from a rest position."

How is it that you can see the word "tracking" in that sentence when no one else can? Just like you see those quietly gliding cueballs?

Sorry, but the shooting was in the context of hunting. You can't make a shot from a rest position while hunting without tracking the prey first. So yes, tracking has a lot to do with the shooting, which was in context with hunting, which you came up with. Unless of course you are the kind of guy that hunts from a hide with deer feed 10 meters away from it. Then yea, I agree with you, helicopter hunting probably takes more skill than normal hunting.

Jump shots turn pocket billiards competition into a circus.

That is your opinion. Because it is an opinion and not a fact, "No, they don't" is a sufficient rebuttal, no further discussion required.