Novice Questions

[JasonMTL]

My brother inlaw signed us up for the apa league in a local pool hall. I've lost two matches and as a result, I'm playing as a 3. Thats not acceptable. So, I've been practicing daily and trying to troubleshoot my game. I need to work on shape, throw and safeties but before all that, there is something wrong with my grip or stroke that needs fixing.

First I've noticed that most players around me grab their cue near the end of the butt whereas I'm grabbing it at the beginning of the wrap. They get their 90 degree angle that way but I can't. Not without having a 15 inch bridge so I read about gripping your cue 6 inches behind the balance point. I found this spot by balancing the cue on my finger and moving my hand back 6 inches. Should I determine the balance point of the butt only?

I've also noticed that just as I'm about to make contact with the ball, my arm moves into my body.

I have 20 tabs and two windows of threads from this site open as we speak. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and I'm saving up for lessons with Alain Martel (he seems to be the only instructor in the Montreal area)

 

[jims111343]

Take a video of you playing pool. Do it like a movie but also have your friend take it from behind showing your grip and if you are moving the cue stick straight or not. If not you are missing more than you should for your skill level, but it is easy to fix. Take some from your exact front as well. Additionally you can set up for a shot about 1 and ½ diamonds from the rail you are standing at. Like for a break shot. Place a medium sized mirror on the floor below your stroking arm so when you are in your stroking position, you can see the mirror, look down and start to stroke. It is so easy to see any inconsistencies it is unbelievable. Correct them!

 

[Scott Lee]

Jason...Lessons are a good bet, if Alain Martel focuses on fundamentals (many pro players do not...they focus more on playing). That is a valid question to ask, before you plunk down your money. Another is whether he uses video analysis to check your stroke (if not, do not waste your money...find another teacher). You can do your own video, but you have to know what to look for. It's not as easy as jim s. would have you believe.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

My brother inlaw signed us up for the apa league in a local pool hall. I've lost two matches and as a result, I'm playing as a 3. Thats not acceptable. So, I've been practicing daily and trying to troubleshoot my game. I need to work on shape, throw and safeties but before all that, there is something wrong with my grip or stroke that needs fixing.

First I've noticed that most players around me grab their cue near the end of the butt whereas I'm grabbing it at the beginning of the wrap. They get their 90 degree angle that way but I can't. Not without having a 15 inch bridge so I read about gripping your cue 6 inches behind the balance point. I found this spot by balancing the cue on my finger and moving my hand back 6 inches. Should I determine the balance point of the butt only?

I've also noticed that just as I'm about to make contact with the ball, my arm moves into my body.

I have 20 tabs and two windows of threads from this site open as we speak. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and I'm saving up for lessons with Alain Martel (he seems to be the only instructor in the Montreal area)

 

[FranCrimi]

My brother inlaw signed us up for the apa league in a local pool hall. I've lost two matches and as a result, I'm playing as a 3. Thats not acceptable. So, I've been practicing daily and trying to troubleshoot my game. I need to work on shape, throw and safeties but before all that, there is something wrong with my grip or stroke that needs fixing.

First I've noticed that most players around me grab their cue near the end of the butt whereas I'm grabbing it at the beginning of the wrap. They get their 90 degree angle that way but I can't. Not without having a 15 inch bridge so I read about gripping your cue 6 inches behind the balance point. I found this spot by balancing the cue on my finger and moving my hand back 6 inches. Should I determine the balance point of the butt only?

I've also noticed that just as I'm about to make contact with the ball, my arm moves into my body.

I have 20 tabs and two windows of threads from this site open as we speak. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and I'm saving up for lessons with Alain Martel (he seems to be the only instructor in the Montreal area)

First, Jason, I met Alain Martel years ago and I was very impressed with his professionalism and knowledge, not to mention his ability as a player. You will do well with him.

Where to place your back hand depends on your arm span and where you want your arm to be at impact. Unfortunately, our arm spans don't always gel with the formula of 6 inches behind the balance point. I read that in Willie Mosconi's book and while it may work for him, I'm taller than Willie was and I have a longer arm span than he did.

Keep saving up for those lessons with Alain. You need good information and he will give it to you.

 

[jims111343]

Jason,
Paying for lessons is not a good idea. Never mind the conflict which is set up just by the fact that they are taking your money. Many of them are not very good. I recommend buying a pool book on fundamentals( Ebay and Amazon.com have plenty. Phil Capelle has a very good line up of Pool books on the basics and different pool games), and make friends with one of the better players in the pool room you like. That and lots of practise is all you need for now. Play games with your friends, for your own enjoyment, but do not consider it good practise. It is not. Get by your self, or with your friend as available, and work out your problems one at a time. If you are having trouble with a particular shot or fundamental ask the better players in your room. Someone will be glad to help you out for free.
Any pro-player, or anyone who has achieved excellence at anything, knows you must have terrific fundamentals and basics understanding to reach the higher levels of execution. That applies to whatever level you are at.
Hope this helps. Jim S.

 

[Ratta]

Jason,
Paying for lessons is not a good idea. Never mind the conflict which is set up just by the fact that they are taking your money. Many of them are not very good. I recommend buying a pool book on fundamentals( Ebay and Amazon.com have plenty. Phil Capelle has a very good line up of Pool books on the basics and different pool games), and make friends with one of the better players in the pool room you like. That and lots of practise is all you need for now. Play games with your friends, for your own enjoyment, but do not consider it good practise. It is not. Get by your self, or with your friend as available, and work out your problems one at a time. If you are having trouble with a particular shot or fundamental ask the better players in your room. Someone will be glad to help you out for free.
Any pro-player, or anyone who has achieved excellence at anything, knows you must have terrific fundamentals and basics understanding to reach the higher levels of execution. That applies to whatever level you are at.
Hope this helps. Jim S.

For me this posting sounds like from one of those *typical instructor haters*-
Once a player has real bad habits, he has a real problem. And to fix over years earned bad habits can be a pain.

You can ask for sure better players to help you-- but not everyone has an ability to this. Even between the instructors are amazing differences.

But really Jim S. -- to use your personal opinion as an opinion to take no lessons and to not pay for it-well. Here i do really have to wonder.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Paying for lessons is not a good idea. Never mind the conflict which is set up just by the fact that they are taking your money. Many of them are not very good. ... Jim S.

Are my lessons worth the cost? Who, specifically, were you referring to?

 

[Okie]

For me this posting sounds like from one of those *typical instructor haters*- Your opinion...I read it in a different context.

Once a player has real bad habits, he has a real problem. And to fix over years earned bad habits can be a pain. Absolutely!

You can ask for sure better players to help you-- but not everyone has an ability to this. Even between the instructors are amazing differences. Absolutely!

But really Jim S. -- to use your personal opinion as an opinion to take no lessons and to not pay for it-well. Here i do really have to wonder.

I agree his wording was aggressive and opinionated, but I agree with the sentiment of his advice. I have purchased instruction from multiple sources and I have received instruction via various free resources. When comparing the two and looking at value and content I can honestly say, good fundamentals can be built without purchasing instruction.

That said...

Good fundamentals can ONLY be built by first knowing what they are, and then applying them through hard work and dedication. Also, your progress needs to be monitored from an outside view which can be done free of charge as well.

So even if Jim's message was opinionated it was solid advice for a man who described himself as an APA 3 and who most likely is not trying to attain pro level.

My advice to the OP would be to do whatever it takes to build solid fundamentals. That is all that matters. How you get them is irrelevant. I won't give you my spin on fundamentals as I am merely an amateur instructor with no reputation of success in teaching pool to date.

Ken

p.s. I would add that Ingo and Bob are both experts in the field of pool instruction. I am not trying to infer otherwise by this post.

 

[EasyEJL]

I'd suggest picking up some books, and spending a bunch of drill time. Also, either buy or check with your local library for DVDs. Instructor time can definitely be nice, but even with that, you get an hour or two of instruction and still to make progress you have to spend hours on your own. Not that much different than with learning a musical instrument, you'll go to a teacher for an hour a week, but you have to spend at least another 5-10 hours yourself in-between. So getting the instructor as an outside viewing expert to correct obvious flaws that you can't see yourself, and to give you new ideas will really help, but only if you put in plenty of additional time.

Do a mix of drills and playing actual games. Equal Offense is a nice solid game you can even play by yourself that helps.

Of the books I've read, this is one of the better.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Critical-Shots-Pool-Everything/dp/0812922417

 

[JasonMTL]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll keep saving up for the lessons, Not going to just book an hour, might as well book a whole day. Until then though, I'll look into getting some footage of myself.

 

[jims111343]

Dear Instructors, I guess I hit a nerve with some of you. I try to stay upbeat, resourceful, and solution-orientated. I am not always so and for that alone I apologize. I let Scott L.`s writing, on this thread, get me a little aggravated. I do have opinions, some of them quite strong, and possibly different than yours. And no reflection on Bob J. who I think is a technical genius (There I go again with the opinions), or anyone else who is doing a fine job at teaching people how to play better pool. That is all I am about. I give lessons all the time. I never charge anything for them, but that is just me giving back for over 50 years of pure enjoyment.
1, That note was for Jason, the beginner guy who started this thread.2, Scott L. seems to think putting a mirror on the floor and looking down at it is tough. Whatever!? 3, I do not hate instructors. Great ones are golden- nothing better.4, Not everyone who needs instruction can afford paying an instructor. I am just giving some options.
Please consider the person (Jason) who started this thread, and is asking for help, when you respond. There is a PM option.
With all due respect, Jim S.

 

[PGHteacher]

Dear Instructors, I guess I hit a nerve with some of you.

How could you possibly not hit a nerve with some of us after saying:

Jason,
Paying for lessons is not a good idea. Never mind the conflict which is set up just by the fact that they are taking your money. Many of them are not very good.

With all due respect also; think about being an instructor and reading that. I don't know what you do/did for a living but fill in the "many of them are not very good" with YOUR business, trade or whatever, it would strike your nerve as well. There is incompetence in this world with anyone doing anything. That statement reads like incompetence is more prevalent among pool instructors than there is among others in life and that is of course a false assertion.

I try to stay upbeat, resourceful, and solution-orientated. I am not always so and for that alone I apologize. I let Scott L.`s writing, on this thread, get me a little aggravated. I do have opinions, some of them quite strong, and possibly different than yours. And no reflection on Bob J. who I think is a technical genius (There I go again with the opinions), or anyone else who is doing a fine job at teaching people how to play better pool. That is all I am about.

Me to

I give lessons all the time. I never charge anything for them, but that is just me giving back for over 50 years of pure enjoyment.

I didn't charge people for many years either; that is a story in and of itself.

1, That note was for Jason, the beginner guy who started this thread.

If it was solely for him, why not just make it a PM?

2, Scott L. seems to think putting a mirror on the floor and looking down at it is tough. Whatever!?

That is 1 interpretation.

3, I do not hate instructors. Great ones are golden- nothing better.

I agree of course but it sure didn't seem that way from the earlier post.

4, Not everyone who needs instruction can afford paying an instructor.

Anyone can afford me, I tell people never to not show up for a lesson because they can't pay me. I tell them we can work that out later, this has had me giving lessons that I will never collect for. Some of us are more in it for the outcome than the income, I am one of those people.

Please consider the person (Jason) who started this thread, and is asking for help, when you respond. There is a PM option.
With all due respect, Jim S.

Yup, and I know I am being lengthily here but here are a few thoughts that you may or may not have considered.

I recommend buying a pool book on fundamentals( Ebay and Amazon.com have plenty. Phil Capelle has a very good line up of Pool books on the basics and different pool games),

Learning from pool books is great, I know that's how I learned at the outset, I developed bad habits and had misconceptions for years; some of those still plague me today. IMHO someone who can work with somebody can do this better, faster and have the information not "interpreted" by someone who does not know, meaning the person that is attempting to teach themselves. Another thing about books is that they are not nearly as efficient as an instructor, one has to memorize the diagrams, what is written and all the variants of that information, then try to implement it.

Get by your self, or with your friend as available, and work out your problems one at a time. If you are having trouble with a particular shot or fundamental ask the better players in your room. Someone will be glad to help you out for free.

Do you think this is a better alternative to paying for instruction? You probably will get bad or wrong information trying to "figure it out with a friend", asking the better players is not a bad idea but not all good/great players are good/great instructors; it just doesn't work that way.

Any pro-player, or anyone who has achieved excellence at anything, knows you must have terrific fundamentals and basics understanding to reach the higher levels of execution. That applies to whatever level you are at.
Hope this helps. Jim S.

True

 

[Scott Lee]

jims111343...In the first place, you are NOT an instructor. You have already admitted that you play at a beginner level, so you are not qualified to post anything other than your opinion...which should be noted as not coming from a professional instructor. Using mirrors is defintely helpful for the student to see what they are doing...but it should be from the side and/or head on...that's the perspective that needs to be addressed. When you come on here, and try to paint a picture of yourself as a teacher, and then come out and say nobody should pay for lessons, you are definitely gonna get some feedback. Some of your ideas have merit...some don't. When you post something that is either wrong, or not necessarily helpful, you should expect to hear about it from people who know better.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Dear Instructors, I guess I hit a nerve with some of you. I try to stay upbeat, resourceful, and solution-orientated. I am not always so and for that alone I apologize. I let Scott L.`s writing, on this thread, get me a little aggravated. I do have opinions, some of them quite strong, and possibly different than yours. And no reflection on Bob J. who I think is a technical genius (There I go again with the opinions), or anyone else who is doing a fine job at teaching people how to play better pool. That is all I am about. I give lessons all the time. I never charge anything for them, but that is just me giving back for over 50 years of pure enjoyment.
1, That note was for Jason, the beginner guy who started this thread.2, Scott L. seems to think putting a mirror on the floor and looking down at it is tough. Whatever!? 3, I do not hate instructors. Great ones are golden- nothing better.4, Not everyone who needs instruction can afford paying an instructor. I am just giving some options.
Please consider the person (Jason) who started this thread, and is asking for help, when you respond. There is a PM option.
With all due respect, Jim S.

 

[jims111343]

How is it that someone can write so extremely well, yet not seem able to read? And that from a PBIAMI. Shame on you.

 

[cuesblues]

My brother inlaw signed us up for the apa league in a local pool hall. I've lost two matches and as a result, I'm playing as a 3. Thats not acceptable. So, I've been practicing daily and trying to troubleshoot my game. I need to work on shape, throw and safeties but before all that, there is something wrong with my grip or stroke that needs fixing.

First I've noticed that most players around me grab their cue near the end of the butt whereas I'm grabbing it at the beginning of the wrap. They get their 90 degree angle that way but I can't. Not without having a 15 inch bridge so I read about gripping your cue 6 inches behind the balance point. I found this spot by balancing the cue on my finger and moving my hand back 6 inches. Should I determine the balance point of the butt only?

I've also noticed that just as I'm about to make contact with the ball, my arm moves into my body.

I have 20 tabs and two windows of threads from this site open as we speak. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and I'm saving up for lessons with Alain Martel (he seems to be the only instructor in the Montreal area)

Please move to Denver and join our APA team.
Always looking for a good 3 that wants to take some instruction.

 

[jims111343]

PGHt, The note and the thread were to Jason. At the time I did not realize how thin-skinned and willing to pounce some of you are. The note was addressed to him, posting 5. That being said I read he likes your way better than mine.
Also in my business not everyone is at the top of his or her field, either. I cannot speak about every business, but I can about my own, and about pool.
Books may have their bad stuff edited out, or not. Your 1, I did not use the PM option because it was not, is not, solely for Jason. Your 2, His friend, as I wrote, would be someone from the better players. I do not think it is a “better alternative to paying for instruction”. It is another possibility. An option that`s all, nothing more, nothing less. I agree that many books are great. But you really do not have to memorize anything in the book, just take it along with you.
I appreciate your taking the time to construct posting 12 but I feel good about what I am doing and believe I have found a new home here. Thanks again, Jim S.

 

[PGHteacher]

PGHt, The note and the thread were to Jason
.......................................................................... I did not use the PM option because it was not, is not, solely for Jason.

Ok which one is it? I am confused.

How is it that someone can write so extremely well, yet not seem able to read? And that from a PBIAMI. Shame on you.

This is a direct insult that I personally believe you should apologize for but hey who am I, it's your life.

At the time I did not realize how thin-skinned and willing to pounce some of you are.

Do you realize that even if you put "thanks" at the end or "with all due respect" at the beginning that that does not change that you have insulted someone or a whole group of people? If we were face to face I would ask you very simply "who are you calling thin skinned?" You might want to consider word choice and how it reads to the person on the receiving end with more care. If you don't care; as I said before, that's up to you it's your life.

Also in my business not everyone is at the top of his or her field, either.

That was the point I was trying to make.

But you really do not have to memorize anything in the book, just take it along with you.

Well yes you do, you can't look at the book and shoot at the exact same time.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Jason,
Paying for lessons is not a good idea. Never mind the conflict which is set up just by the fact that they are taking your money. Many of them are not very good. I recommend buying a pool book on fundamentals( Ebay and Amazon.com have plenty. Phil Capelle has a very good line up of Pool books on the basics and different pool games), and make friends with one of the better players in the pool room you like. That and lots of practise is all you need for now. Play games with your friends, for your own enjoyment, but do not consider it good practise. It is not. Get by your self, or with your friend as available, and work out your problems one at a time. If you are having trouble with a particular shot or fundamental ask the better players in your room. Someone will be glad to help you out for free.
Any pro-player, or anyone who has achieved excellence at anything, knows you must have terrific fundamentals and basics understanding to reach the higher levels of execution. That applies to whatever level you are at.
Hope this helps. Jim S.

Jason and Jim:

I start at $250 for a several-hour session and expenses. If I'm lecturing an audience for a podium without a cue in hand, I speak about 150 words a minute. My pool book has 100,000 words (apologies to Sean for another word count) and comes with a DVD that is three hours long and can be had for less than $20, so your math may be correct, as long as you realize the obvious:

The books you're recommending are written by instructors who get paid for lessons besides writing the books you're recommending!

There are many things a good teacher does to tailor book-style instruction to an individual's needs. Today I'm chatting with a fellow who is small in stature and has bridge problems. Others told him to buy a specialized cue stick but I'm looking to help him with his fundamentals instead. We'll go "beyond the book".

Fran's advice is spot on and it would be a pleasure to see a new player take lessons for a change. It's true in golf, tennis and most other sports--why not billiards?

My $0.02.

 

[nobcitypool]

Jason, I'll attempt to respond to your post with a perspective similar to your own, i.e., as the player aspiring and driven to get better.

Looking at video and in a mirror is great. How are you going to know what you are looking for and what to change unless you get lessons from a qualified, competent instructor? From a book? Watching videos of professionals? No question, if you're a bright guy (and you sound like it), if you read enough, watch enough videos and practice countless hours, you can get there. However, I'm guessing you don't aspire to be a pro, you likely have another profession that sucks up a good deal of your time and limits your practice time and you may have a wife/family and other obligations. So the question becomes, what process do you use to achieve the most improvement in the shortest period of time with the least amount of effort? I happen to FIRMLY believe that would come from taking lessons from a qualified instructor.

I have taken 3 lessons from Scott Lee and have a fourth coming up in the next few weeks. I've played pool practically my whole life but up until April, never took it seriously enough to practice. Six months ago, I was a very mediocre 5 in APA. Tuesday night, I beat the second ranked 7 in the league (8 ball) quite handily and then annihilated a 7 in 9 ball. That certainly doesn't mean I'm looking ahead to winning the Derby Classic in January (LOL) but it gives a perspective for how much I've improved in a relatively short period of time. I will take credit for a lot of that improvement with diligent, disciplined practice. However, I give all the credit to Scott for providing me with solid stroke fundamentals along with tons of additional fundamental knowledge about the game of pool that has allowed me to be most efficient with my practice time. Further, Scott has always readily made himself available to answer my questions over the phone and discuss questions I have in between lessons.

I am obviously a huge fan of Scott's, if he happens to be in your area, I'd highly recommend him. With that said and more importantly, what I'm recommending is you find a qualified instructor, whomever that may be, and utilize them to help you develop a sound, fundamental foundation to your game. Do not be confused and this is very important. If you don't commit to practicing what your taught, don't waste your time and money on the instructor. Instruction is not a silver bullet or magic wand. It likely won't have an instantaneous affect on your game. You might even struggle for awhile as you adapt to what you're taught. However, if you have decent eye sight, average or above hand to eye coordination and average intelligence or above, lessons can have you playing much, much better in a reasonably short period of time.

Let me add that IMHO, the instructor does need to use video analysis to show you what is happening as they are teaching you. I also happen to believe if the first thing they do is anything other than address your stroke fundamentals, you're wasting your time. Who cares about aiming or understanding CB positioning or whatever unless you can put the ball where you're aiming. That comes as a result of a solid, fundamentally sound and consistent stroke. Best of luck with whatever you do.

 

[jims111343]

Just came across PGHt`s post 17.---When you take those two things out of context, as you did, you probably would be confused.---The Scott L. post 13, as to my not being an instructor, and also that I admitted I play at a beginners level, is just lies. I thought at the time he was being deceitful in an attempt to get my writing removed from the Ask forum. Still do.---As to what I said about the mirror, and what he said, try it and see for yourself. ---Once again, I have never said "nobody should pay for lessons". Just another lie from Scott L`s post 13.---All of my ideas have merit-wrong again.---I insulted what he wrote about me because it is completely false.---Many times over the phone, and in writing people have said things to me which I found to be mean or thoughtless. I believe they would not communicate something like that in a face to face.I get it. But, in being an adult I believe that when someone is lying about me, that is a basis for further discussion.---I see that my word-choices could be better and believe me, I do care.