Now that the IPT has self-destructed....

Dr. Dissent

Dr. Dissent

Best Doctor in Town
Silver Member
Now that the IPT has self-destructed...

a new tour could be organized.

This time, we could tell the players that they will fund the prizes. No gimmicks. Tournament entry fees would be $1,500. Qualifiers at $1,500 entry fee to be added to the main event. No prize money at qualifiers. We need at least $216,000 added money at each event and no less than 144 players at the qualifier to provide some type of decent money for the main event payout. Six (6) qualifiers throughout the year, with 6 main events. All money has to be escrowed.

The payout would be the following for a full 256 field:

1st $120,000
2nd $60,000
3rd $30,000
4th $15,000
5th/6th $13,500 x 2 27,000
7th/8th $12,000 x 2 24,000
9th/12th $10,500 x 4 42,000
13th/16th $9,000 x 4 36,000
17th/24th $7,500 x 8 60,000
25th/32nd $5,250 x 8 42,000
33rd/48th $3,750 x 16 60,000
49th/64th $2,250 x 16 36,000
65th/98th $1500 x 32 48,000

Hey, maybe this could work.....

Thanks IPT.....!!!!
 
Well that model hasn't worked for any of the successful professional sports, (though poker stands out as an anomoly due to its unique online business characteristics), so it's not likely to work as you suggest.

The key to success in such ventures is leveraging revenue through sponsorship and broadcasting and ticket sales if one can pull that off.

Colin
 
HAHAHAHAAHHA!


You know what's amazing? You have people saying it doesn't work, when that's precisely what the IPT's been getting away with!


Why is that $1,500 entry fees are "too high"...but when it's for the IPT, $330,000 (estimated, but close) was raised in qualifiers just for Las Vegas alone!!!


WOW. People will pay huge money to play in a qualifier, but they won't do that play in a tournament? That's bizarre. People use the excuse that IF (that's a condition) you win a qualifier, you made $2k or $5k right away. Yes, but IF you don't win? Most players who paid to qualify did not qualify.

The risk is the same as losing 1st round in a tournament that you paid $1,500 to play in, EXCEPT, at least you get to play in the money-making tournament for sure! There's no guarantee in qualifiers like there's no guarantee in tournaments.


People somehow have been suckered into thinking the IPT is guaranteed money because last place pays. This is the genius of KT. That only applies to IPT members - the IPT makes money off of qualifier players.


It's it amazing the money and risk people will take when the illusion of professionalism and organization exists. They won't do it on their own, but they'll do it for the IPT. LOL. People paid $1,500 to qualify, they played, got eliminated round 1, are OWED $5,000 and have not been paid. Where is the security and guarantee there?


You know, this same standard can be applied to government, taxes, retirements etc...just the nature of humans I guess.


Given what's happened in the IPT with qualifiers, there's no reason whatsoever why a fully player-financed prize fund tournament couldn't exist or work. It would be a huge gamble tourney. I suppose people need fancy BS and pretty logos to take risk.
 
Bola Ocho said:
HAHAHAHAAHHA!

WOW. People will pay huge money to play in a qualifier, but they won't do that play in a tournament? That's bizarre. People use the excuse that IF (that's a condition) you win a qualifier, you made $2k or $5k right away. Yes, but IF you don't win? Most players who paid to qualify did not qualify.

The risk is the same as losing 1st round in a tournament that you paid $1,500 to play in, EXCEPT, at least you get to play in the money-making tournament for sure! There's no guarantee in qualifiers like there's no guarantee in tournaments.


People somehow have been suckered into thinking the IPT is guaranteed money because last place pays. This is the genius of KT. That only applies to IPT members - the IPT makes money off of qualifier players.


It's it amazing the money and risk people will take when the illusion of professionalism and organization exists. They won't do it on their own, but they'll do it for the IPT. LOL. People paid $1,500 to qualify, they played, got eliminated round 1, are OWED $5,000 and have not been paid. Where is the security and guarantee there?
Click to expand...

Hi Bola Ocho, yes, you are very correct. KT had them all believing that they were guaranteed $100K a year just for showing up. Not to mention "star treatment", medical benefits, paid commercials, life insurance, paid TV appearances, $500 per hour for giving lessons and, lets not forget, movies and stock options. That's how he hooked them all.

Just like all the thousands of people that thought they would grow hair, cure cancer and elimate electromagnetic chaos - no different!

Now, he'll surely get some to show up in Chicago.

That KT, he really is good!!
 
YEP! You are correct. I've said in the past that the primary motivator for the qualifier and others was this $100,000 guarantee.

That's a myth. There's nothing in writing. There are no signed and notarized contracts.

Amazing that people will risk $1,500 or $2,000 on a lousy qualifier, only to play in another tournament, which neither has any guarantee of success all on a myth about $100,000.

But won't do the same to pool money in a guranteed pay-out tournament with a $1,500-$2,000 entry fee.
 
Colin Colenso said:
Well that model hasn't worked for any of the successful professional sports, (though poker stands out as an anomoly due to its unique online business characteristics), so it's not likely to work as you suggest.

The key to success in such ventures is leveraging revenue through sponsorship and broadcasting and ticket sales if one can pull that off.

Colin
Click to expand...

This model is exactly what the IPT has sold to all the players....and everyone bought it.......
 
jjinfla said:
Hey good Dr,

That looks like the model that was used in the US Open times 3.
Click to expand...

jjinfla:

You are correct, the payout was modeled after last year's Open.

This information shows (to those whom have complained about low payouts at past events) that if everyone paid $1500 dollars to enter the main event, and the added money to the event was funded by the players through qualifiers (exactly what KT has done), then we could have prize funds over $100,000 for first place.

KT has done nothing magical with pool (although he has illusioned everyone in favor of the IPT); he has just suckered a lot a people into believing his BS works, when it could be easily done the same way without gimmicks.
 
Bola Ocho said:
HAHAHAHAAHHA!


You know what's amazing? You have people saying it doesn't work, when that's precisely what the IPT's been getting away with!


Why is that $1,500 entry fees are "too high"...but when it's for the IPT, $330,000 (estimated, but close) was raised in qualifiers just for Las Vegas alone!!!


WOW. People will pay huge money to play in a qualifier, but they won't do that play in a tournament? That's bizarre. People use the excuse that IF (that's a condition) you win a qualifier, you made $2k or $5k right away. Yes, but IF you don't win? Most players who paid to qualify did not qualify.

The risk is the same as losing 1st round in a tournament that you paid $1,500 to play in, EXCEPT, at least you get to play in the money-making tournament for sure! There's no guarantee in qualifiers like there's no guarantee in tournaments.


People somehow have been suckered into thinking the IPT is guaranteed money because last place pays. This is the genius of KT. That only applies to IPT members - the IPT makes money off of qualifier players.


It's it amazing the money and risk people will take when the illusion of professionalism and organization exists. They won't do it on their own, but they'll do it for the IPT. LOL. People paid $1,500 to qualify, they played, got eliminated round 1, are OWED $5,000 and have not been paid. Where is the security and guarantee there?


You know, this same standard can be applied to government, taxes, retirements etc...just the nature of humans I guess.


Given what's happened in the IPT with qualifiers, there's no reason whatsoever why a fully player-financed prize fund tournament couldn't exist or work. It would be a huge gamble tourney. I suppose people need fancy BS and pretty logos to take risk.
Click to expand...


Hey Bola Ocho, I like you. You understood perfectly my post, and have provided a helluva of a response to Colin. If I had seen your post before responding to Colin, I would have save my precious time....
 
The model really wasn't bad. It just fell apart when players failed to enter the qualifiers in large amounts. There were some pretty big turnouts at the beginning but they sure dwindled in a hurry.

Perhaps if the payouts for the tournaments were smaller and the qualifiers limited the entrants and stayed at $1,000 it might have had a better chance to get started.

But the players just do not attract enough people to make it worth while. I doubt that there are 10,000 people who care about a professional pool player or watching him play. With that small number there is no way for anyone to make a business out of them.

Sad to say, but there is no hope for professional pool.

It was fun while it lasted and I really do think that KT lost a bundle on the deal.

Jake
 
Dr. Dissent said:
jjinfla:

You are correct, the payout was modeled after last year's Open.

This information shows (to those whom have complained about low payouts at past events) that if everyone paid $1500 dollars to enter the main event, and the added money to the event was funded by the players through qualifiers (exactly what KT has done), then we could have prize funds over $100,000 for first place.

KT has done nothing magical with pool (although he has illusioned everyone in favor of the IPT); he has just suckered a lot a people into believing his BS works, when it could be easily done the same way without gimmicks.
Click to expand...


Well no, it can't be done the same way without gimmicks. You have to have a way to generate income to show a profit and qualifiers are the way but you need the sucker, er, great pool players to pony up.

I really was surprised that he got as many people to enter the qualifiers as he did. Think about it, only two chances to win, yet they still got a bunch of people to enter. One reason is that he kept quiet how many people applied. I am sure that in the beginning many players thought that only a dozen or so people would come up with the entry fee and were surprised to see how many really did show up.

Another problem with the IPT was the total lack of interest or acceptance by the non-pro type of pool players and the general public. The fact is no one but a small hard core of people really care about the pros. And there are a lot of people right now who just have no idea what or who the IPT is and could care less about them.

Jake
 
I'm thinking that one of the big problems with the whole "qualifier" route with the IPT was, it was a pretty significant chunk of change for a chance to win a chance to win some money.

Most folks, I think, would prefer one generation of chance - pay your fee, play, do well enough and you get something for it. Especially at the amounts the IPT was charging ($1,500 to $3,000 a pop).

The IPT quickly milked the herd out of what spare funds they had, and the qualifier attendance dropped in a big way.

If they want to keep people coming back and trying, the fees have to be much more reasonable - the fees have to be geared toward one person being able to afford multiple fees over a given amount of time.

I know (and somewhat agree with) the whole "keep fees high to only get the serious people participating" argument - but the serious people don't all have unlimited funds.

As far as it requiring the IPT to implode to start a new tour - WTF? Who's stopping *anyone* from starting a new tour, regardless? The only factor there is the players holding IPT cards, and whether schedules would preclude participation in two tours for them. But if they can't make it, I'm sure there's tons of OTHER folks, good shots all, who would fill up a second tour's roster, and happily - and even more happily if the top pros in the world WEREN'T in a second tour to dominate it.
 
jjinfla said:
Well no, it can't be done the same way without gimmicks. You have to have a way to generate income to show a profit and qualifiers are the way but you need the sucker, er, great pool players to pony up.

I really was surprised that he got as many people to enter the qualifiers as he did. Think about it, only two chances to win, yet they still got a bunch of people to enter. One reason is that he kept quiet how many people applied. I am sure that in the beginning many players thought that only a dozen or so people would come up with the entry fee and were surprised to see how many really did show up.

Another problem with the IPT was the total lack of interest or acceptance by the non-pro type of pool players and the general public. The fact is no one but a small hard core of people really care about the pros. And there are a lot of people right now who just have no idea what or who the IPT is and could care less about them.

Jake
Click to expand...


The qualifiers were not really part of the original story. In fact he said they would just pick another player if someone dropped out or they needed more players. In the beginning all KT talked about was TV and how that would be what would drive this thing. He throw out numbers that if they come to pass would have made meeting the prize funds nothing, just nickels and dimes, everybody was going to be rich.

There was no reason for anyone not to believe him, he was in the media business and we all know the kind on money TV generates. If you just took it all in without asking a few key questions it made sense. He led people to believe all he had to do was make a few calls and with all his contacts and it would almost be easy. He made it all sound so believable but it doesn't take much thought to see it just could not work. I wonder at what point they recognized how crazy the idea was?

What could they have been thinking on that Monday starting the tournament knowing what they must have known? Were they waiting for some miracle or something. I have had people owe me rent and tell me to wait right here they are going to cash their check right now and will be back in 15 minutes. After an hour I just leave and have to start the dance all over the next day. What do they think, I won't notice they never came back?

Even at this point KT could come completely clean with everybody, explain everything that went wrong the miscalculations and mistakes they made and the players would listen. He could shut it all down and arrange to pay over time or reorganize and change what didn't work whatever. JUST BE HONEST FOR A CHANGE that is all anyone asks and let the chips fall where they may.
 
Dr. Dissent said:
jjinfla:

You are correct, the payout was modeled after last year's Open.

This information shows (to those whom have complained about low payouts at past events) that if everyone paid $1500 dollars to enter the main event, and the added money to the event was funded by the players through qualifiers (exactly what KT has done), then we could have prize funds over $100,000 for first place.

KT has done nothing magical with pool (although he has illusioned everyone in favor of the IPT); he has just suckered a lot a people into believing his BS works, when it could be easily done the same way without gimmicks.
Click to expand...

Hey Doc, maybe yes , maybe no. I'm not exactly sure whether there are enough players out there that believe they are world championship material and would be willing to risk that much for a single tournament.

Without his "gimmicks" and "illusions" I don't think KT would have had a fraction of the amount of players shelling out $1500 - $2,000 per qualifier. The real "hook" was the $100K plus, personal guarantee from KT for all tour card holders. That made a lot of decent players that knew that they never had a chance of actually finishing in the top ten still believing that they could get a tour card and the $100K plus guarantee. Without that gimmick most would not have even tried.

Plus, just to get the ball rolling, he still had to give away the first 150, or so, tour cards. He really thought he had it all figured out. Didn't he?

So a $1500 entry fee for a tournament with a $100K prize, while acceptable for the top players, probably would just scare most players off. But who knows for sure?
 
I Have The Answer !

jjinfla said:
Well no, it can't be done the same way without gimmicks. You have to have a way to generate income.......
Jake
Click to expand...



Ah, nekkid girls and Free Chinese food.....

Doug
( polishing my shoes and putting on my Sunday-go-to-meeting clothes now )
 
Dr. Dissent said:
This model is exactly what the IPT has sold to all the players....and everyone bought it.......
Click to expand...

It appears the IPT aimed to bring in significant revenues via the qualification system, but this trial resulted in revenues that only covered a fraction of event costs.

Very few here actually thought the IPT would be likely able to bring in large numbers of players through the qualifying system, unless they could somehow generate incredible buzz and exposure.

Who knows, such a system could bring in significant revenues in the future if it is marketed well alongside broad exposure.

My point was that a good tourney business model requires leveraging of various revenue streams to maximize its chances.

I'm still not sure what point you were trying to make in your post. Simply mocking with an unintelligent insight I assume.

Colin
 
Am I missing something, an announcement? I thought everyone was waiting on the deal with Ho to be signed?

I do not know if this is the case or not, but if I got a letter of intent and was planning to sell the business I would not continue paying out of pocket. That responsibility would be in the hands of the attornies to finalize and let the new guy pay.

The other side is customer satisfaction, you have to balance that end too.

So what is the deal here?
 
I believe he hoped the qualifiers would generate income that would cover expenses until revenue started coming in from TV advertisers and from the membership club. Unfortunately the TV production must have been a bust. With no advertisers there would be no money coming in so he just closed up shop. The membership club probably didn't generate much income either.

I actually think he really believed that he would be successful with this venture. Must have listened to Sigel too much.

Jake
 
jjinfla said:
I believe he hoped the qualifiers would generate income that would cover expenses until revenue started coming in from TV advertisers and from the membership club. Unfortunately the TV production must have been a bust. With no advertisers there would be no money coming in so he just closed up shop. The membership club probably didn't generate much income either.

I actually think he really believed that he would be successful with this venture. Must have listened to Sigel too much.

Jake
Click to expand...

Were was the announcement?

Also, a venture like this takes at least 2 years to get off the ground. He knows this stuff.
 
Colin Colenso said:
It appears the IPT aimed to bring in significant revenues via the qualification system, but this trial resulted in revenues that only covered a fraction of event costs.

Very few here actually thought the IPT would be likely able to bring in large numbers of players through the qualifying system, unless they could somehow generate incredible buzz and exposure.

Who knows, such a system could bring in significant revenues in the future if it is marketed well alongside broad exposure.

My point was that a good tourney business model requires leveraging of various revenue streams to maximize its chances.

I'm still not sure what point you were trying to make in your post. Simply mocking with an unintelligent insight I assume.

Colin
Click to expand...

Colin, I doubt this mess will straighten out. There are only 2 people to blame for all this, and we all know whom they are. Kevin and Deno should have thought-out all this before starting the tour. Unfortunately, the players are once again paying for other's mistakes, and this time, the amounts are very much larger than in the previous fiascos....
 
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