Now that the IPT has self-destructed....

pete lafond said:
Am I missing something, an announcement? I thought everyone was waiting on the deal with Ho to be signed?
The last place I worked at was sold to another company twice while I was employed there. My check was never a day late or a dollar short. Because of this (and the fact that I'm certainly not in the know when it comes to business ventures) I have a hard time believing that the non-payment is due to the Ho deal. If KT had in fact earmarked the money for two (or was it three?) as he said, the money should've been there and paid, regardless of the buy out. Am I wrong, is there something different about this than when my employer was bought out?
 
Timberly said:
The last place I worked at was sold to another company twice while I was employed there. My check was never a day late or a dollar short. Because of this (and the fact that I'm certainly not in the know when it comes to business ventures) I have a hard time believing that the non-payment is due to the Ho deal. If KT had in fact earmarked the money for two (or was it three?) as he said, the money should've been there and paid, regardless of the buy out. Am I wrong, is there something different about this than when my employer was bought out?

Never meant to include payroll, sorry.

Thanks for clarification.

Pete
 
Timberly said:
The last place I worked at was sold to another company twice while I was employed there. My check was never a day late or a dollar short. Because of this (and the fact that I'm certainly not in the know when it comes to business ventures) I have a hard time believing that the non-payment is due to the Ho deal. If KT had in fact earmarked the money for two (or was it three?) as he said, the money should've been there and paid, regardless of the buy out. Am I wrong, is there something different about this than when my employer was bought out?

Yes Timberly, the concept is exactly the same, the specifics may be different, but the idea is exactly the same.

When two entities agree to buy/sell a given asset, whether it is a small or large business, or even a house, any knowledgeable buyer stipulates in the agreement that the seller will not diminish the value of the asset he is buying, in this case a going business. In this case that would mean that KT will not do anything that would diminish the value of the IPT to the buyer (Ho). Things that would be included in this catagory would almost always include increasing debt; selling or damaging fixtures or inventory; damaging the businesses' reputation or relationships with clients, partners, employees, and so on.

Now, on the sellers end, it is equally in his best interests not to do anything that would damage the value of the business so that the buyer isn't given a reason to change his mind or lose his interest in buying the business.

Things like employee salaries and existing debts are discussed before agreements are made and are worked out in various ways. Most of the times salaries are paid by the current owner and debts may stay with the business and are reflected in the sales price. But in every situation, including buying a business near bankruptcy, arrangement to pay debts and salaries are made in advance, perhaps even more timely than before, so as to protect and guarantee that the value of the business is not less than when the agreement was made, it only makes sense.

What makes it quite unlikely that KT has a pending sale is the fact that in the past 32 days KT has effectively destroyed any value the IPT may have had. By not paying the players he has accumulated $3M in debt and put into question the future existance of the business that he claims he sold. He has, effectively, ruined any potential sale that he may have had. Very few people are that stupid, certainly not KT - I seriously doubt that there was ever a pending sale.
 
Timberly said:
the non-payment is due to the Ho deal.


Which brings up another point. Is this HO deal a reality, or just a bluff? I don't believe KT can openly claim that the IPT is being sold or that they've made a deal with Ho without his consent. Then again, Ho is a criminal himself.


Here's the possibilities:

1] The IPT is sold, and Ho wants nothing to do with the current style and pool in the US and wants to make this heavily Asian dominated. Conveniently for KT, he's found a prime opportunity to DUMP the IPT which he's been struggling to convince people of it's profitability. Thus, payouts to players are a no-go since the IPT has ceased to exist. He's off loading it and is just buying time with BS promises.

2] Ho, for some sort of benefit I have no idea, has allowed the use of his name in a fake deal in a last ditch attempt to make the IPT appear like a winning business model which would then appeal to a massive host of sponsors, which in turn, would then make the IPT profitable. He's used this strategy in the IPT. Part of the IPT strategy was to use huge prize money to try and attract attention the way Poker did. Likewise, if they can sling huge $150million dollar figures around, it will get the attention of sponsors and investors.

3] The deal with Ho has gone sour, the IPT is not profitable - and KT is delaying and buying time hoping the TV show will bring in money.


That's about it for the conspiracy theories - lol.


I don't believe the IPT can be profitable right now. I'm no billionaire businessman, but c'mon. For some reason, I don't buy this whole massive ratings BS on Versus. Like it or not, it's still POOL and it hasn't erupted. When I hear people talking about pool at restaurants and parties...then I'll agree. It doesn't even get the attention it did with the KOTH in pool rooms, where they have 100% pool fans.

The qualifiers are dismal at best.

I doubt the internet subscriptions are doing that well either - the content is minimal, and quite frankly, I don't think the word has gotten out about it. To make matters worse, it seems to me that the pool-fans are a little stone-age when it comes to this stuff. They're not like the fans of other sports or games that are more tech savvy and would try that out. Most people at my pool hall can't even turn on a PC. About 1/2 the people I talk to didn't even know a Reno tournament happened......


I don't think anyone is running out and buying the IPT dvd's. They suck. Production is great, but how long can you sell Sigel?

The cloth is pathetic. No one wants that garbage. The amateur cloth is just a simonis wannabe and everyone's got simonis already. Hey, not bashing Gorina, but it's not something revolutionary to make everyone want to switch over.

No one in pool rooms likes the Sardo.

The IPT balls are horrible. They in no way compare to the Super Pros. These are cheap balls with high luster made by Aramith for maximum IPT profitability. They look good, but they suck.

No one is running to buy Diamond tables because of the IPT. Diamonds sell themselves. That's a fact.

The IPT never targeted for tournament attendance, but regardless of that, attendance was weak.

Initially, they made some money by selling the cloth and balls and sardos to rooms that wanted to host qualifiers. And the IPT always favors new rooms because that's new revenue, yet on their lists...it's the same places over and over. They've saturated the market. That plan is over.


Just because you see a Party Poker or Emerson logo doesn't mean the IPT is making big money from that. No one knows how much they paid for it, or what the deal was. Sometimes advertising is not as expensive as you think. It's about exposure, and the IPT on Versus is not exactly the same exposure has having a logo on the canvas of a heavyweight championship boxing match.


Virtually everywhere I look, there's DOUBT about the profitability of the IPT. There's not one aspect of the IPT where you can say, yes - 100% they're making a killing there! Not one area.


The IPT is fun. I love the idea and the excitement it can bring. However, I just don't see it delivering. Maybe it's just me. I want it to succeed, but when I see failure to pay players for a month, and nothing but gibberish coming from the IPT....it has to make you wonder.


How did they go from "100 sponsors lined up" and "150 million dollar sale" to can't pay $3million for the last tournament? Doesn't add up.
 
jimmyg said:
Y

What makes it quite unlikely that KT has a pending sale is the fact that in the past 32 days KT has effectively destroyed any value the IPT may have had. By not paying the players he has accumulated $3M in debt and put into question the future existance of the business that he claims he sold. He has, effectively, ruined any potential sale that he may have had. Very few people are that stupid, certainly not KT - I seriously doubt that there was ever a pending sale.

I don't know whether or not he has an impending sale. They've been so secretive that it's hard to tell what's going on.

As for the $3M in debts. I think he owes it, you think he owes it, the players think he owes it....but....legally I'm not convinced the law would think he owes it.

If I say I'll pay you $3 Million, and you say 'great' I still don't owe you the money because you haven't done anything for it. In legal terms, there was no 'consideration.' There has to be an offer, acceptance and consideration. In this case, I think the website would have to be interpreted to be the contract and the consideration would be the players showing up to play....but I'm not sure how it would be interpreted by the courts.

Also, in Nevada, he might have run into trouble with the gaming commission if he didn't get the right permits etc... into place....I tried to read the law for the gaming commission to research a theory about the possible impending merger/acquisition and couldn't find any wording which described billiards.

btw, in case anyone cares, here is the scenario I was playing with - IF KT had a gaming license/permit in Nevada, would purchasing the IPT give Ho the ability to operate in Nevada and build casinos in Las Vegas. If so, then the $150 MM might be a pittance.

I was unable to find anything that could either validate or disprove that theory.

Cheers,
RC
 
sixpack said:
I don't know whether or not he has an impending sale. They've been so secretive that it's hard to tell what's going on.

As for the $3M in debts. I think he owes it, you think he owes it, the players think he owes it....but....legally I'm not convinced the law would think he owes it.

If I say I'll pay you $3 Million, and you say 'great' I still don't owe you the money because you haven't done anything for it. In legal terms, there was no 'consideration.' There has to be an offer, acceptance and consideration. In this case, I think the website would have to be interpreted to be the contract and the consideration would be the players showing up to play....but I'm not sure how it would be interpreted by the courts.

Also, in Nevada, he might have run into trouble with the gaming commission if he didn't get the right permits etc... into place....I tried to read the law for the gaming commission to research a theory about the possible impending merger/acquisition and couldn't find any wording which described billiards.

btw, in case anyone cares, here is the scenario I was playing with - IF KT had a gaming license/permit in Nevada, would purchasing the IPT give Ho the ability to operate in Nevada and build casinos in Las Vegas. If so, then the $150 MM might be a pittance.

I was unable to find anything that could either validate or disprove that theory.

Cheers,
RC

I think in a court of law, the fact that the players showed up in Reno and played would be considered "performance" by any reasonable person. I mean, what more is a professional athlete expected to do? Did they show up and play, is probably the yardstick they would be judged by. And 200 of them did, from all over the globe. If that isn't "consideration", what is?
 
LAMas asks Bola Ocho:
very loquacious, and your contribution to this tread is ?


Ah, all terrain tires, "where the rubber meets the road" ????

Doug
(just a guess)
 
Bola Ocho said:
Which brings up another point. Is this HO deal a reality, or just a bluff? I don't believe KT can openly claim that the IPT is being sold or that they've made a deal with Ho without his consent. Then again, Ho is a criminal himself.


Here's the possibilities:

1] The IPT is sold, and Ho wants nothing to do with the current style and pool in the US and wants to make this heavily Asian dominated. Conveniently for KT, he's found a prime opportunity to DUMP the IPT which he's been struggling to convince people of it's profitability. Thus, payouts to players are a no-go since the IPT has ceased to exist. He's off loading it and is just buying time with BS promises.

2] Ho, for some sort of benefit I have no idea, has allowed the use of his name in a fake deal in a last ditch attempt to make the IPT appear like a winning business model which would then appeal to a massive host of sponsors, which in turn, would then make the IPT profitable. He's used this strategy in the IPT. Part of the IPT strategy was to use huge prize money to try and attract attention the way Poker did. Likewise, if they can sling huge $150million dollar figures around, it will get the attention of sponsors and investors.

3] The deal with Ho has gone sour, the IPT is not profitable - and KT is delaying and buying time hoping the TV show will bring in money.


That's about it for the conspiracy theories - lol.


I don't believe the IPT can be profitable right now. I'm no billionaire businessman, but c'mon. For some reason, I don't buy this whole massive ratings BS on Versus. Like it or not, it's still POOL and it hasn't erupted. When I hear people talking about pool at restaurants and parties...then I'll agree. It doesn't even get the attention it did with the KOTH in pool rooms, where they have 100% pool fans.

The qualifiers are dismal at best.

I doubt the internet subscriptions are doing that well either - the content is minimal, and quite frankly, I don't think the word has gotten out about it. To make matters worse, it seems to me that the pool-fans are a little stone-age when it comes to this stuff. They're not like the fans of other sports or games that are more tech savvy and would try that out. Most people at my pool hall can't even turn on a PC. About 1/2 the people I talk to didn't even know a Reno tournament happened......


I don't think anyone is running out and buying the IPT dvd's. They suck. Production is great, but how long can you sell Sigel?

The cloth is pathetic. No one wants that garbage. The amateur cloth is just a simonis wannabe and everyone's got simonis already. Hey, not bashing Gorina, but it's not something revolutionary to make everyone want to switch over.

No one in pool rooms likes the Sardo.

The IPT balls are horrible. They in no way compare to the Super Pros. These are cheap balls with high luster made by Aramith for maximum IPT profitability. They look good, but they suck.

No one is running to buy Diamond tables because of the IPT. Diamonds sell themselves. That's a fact.

The IPT never targeted for tournament attendance, but regardless of that, attendance was weak.

Initially, they made some money by selling the cloth and balls and sardos to rooms that wanted to host qualifiers. And the IPT always favors new rooms because that's new revenue, yet on their lists...it's the same places over and over. They've saturated the market. That plan is over.


Just because you see a Party Poker or Emerson logo doesn't mean the IPT is making big money from that. No one knows how much they paid for it, or what the deal was. Sometimes advertising is not as expensive as you think. It's about exposure, and the IPT on Versus is not exactly the same exposure has having a logo on the canvas of a heavyweight championship boxing match.


Virtually everywhere I look, there's DOUBT about the profitability of the IPT. There's not one aspect of the IPT where you can say, yes - 100% they're making a killing there! Not one area.


The IPT is fun. I love the idea and the excitement it can bring. However, I just don't see it delivering. Maybe it's just me. I want it to succeed, but when I see failure to pay players for a month, and nothing but gibberish coming from the IPT....it has to make you wonder.


How did they go from "100 sponsors lined up" and "150 million dollar sale" to can't pay $3million for the last tournament? Doesn't add up.


What about door #4. Ho does not have, nor did he ever have, any interest in acquiring the IPT. It is just a cover story made up by one of the biggest liars on planet Earth. Ho is probably way to preoccupied to be concerned about a bullsh-t artist from the states. He is up to his neck with Steve Wynn and Sheldon Adelson right now in Macau.

Perhaps KT met him once and said "Hey how would you like to be my partner in a professional pool tour. We can own the sport lock, stock and barrel." Ho took a look at this idiot and smiled, maybe even said "let me think about it." Voila, Letter Of Intent!
 
jay helfert said:
I think in a court of law, the fact that the players showed up in Reno and played would be considered "performance" by any reasonable person. I mean, what more is a professional athlete expected to do? Did they show up and play, is probably the yardstick they would be judged by. And 200 of them did, from all over the globe. If that isn't "consideration", what is?

I hope so.

Cheers,
RC
 
jimmyg said:
Plus, just to get the ball rolling, he still had to give away the first 150, or so, tour cards.....

He did no such thing.He charged them a membership fee direct, can't remember exactly how much it was (about $800/-?).Then he charged them an indirect fee in the form of them all having to travel and show up to dance for the media at the KOH,whether they were playing or not:(
 
memikey said:
He did no such thing.He charged them a membership fee direct, can't remember exactly how much it was (about $800/-?).Then he charged them an indirect fee in the form of them all having to travel and show up to dance for the media at the KOH,whether they were playing or not:(

I don't know what the exact financial arrangements with each player was, the point that I was making was that they did not have to compete for their tour cards.

And, yes, after he sold them the dream, he certainly took advantage of them in other ways.
 
ScottW said:
......I know (and somewhat agree with) the whole "keep fees high to only get the serious people participating" argument.......

Whether that would be a wise objective at the outset of a business like IPT or not is debatable however.....irrespective of which way you feel about that.....let's not forget how this started....

......The above explanation/justification was first wheeled out by IPT months ago primarily as a response to people who were squealing about the entry fees being high.They didn't just say "serious" though,they said that the fees were high to attract only players of the necessary high standard.Shortly afterwards IPT said that rooms and clubs should organise their own cheaper satellite events where thousands of little guys and no-hopers ability wise could take say a $20 or $50 shot at the big time.

The glaring contradiction of their position on this subject was pointed out by many at the time and for some this was one of the first eye-openers to IPT's propensity to say whatever they thought the listener wanted to hear,whether it was truthful or not and a clear indication of the contempt in which they held the intelligence of those they were targeting.
 
jimmyg said:
I don't know what the exact financial arrangements with each player was, the point that I was making was that they did not have to compete for their tour cards.

And, yes, after he sold them the dream, he certainly took advantage of them in other ways.

Jimmy, I refer you to my response on the "Chicago" thread.
 
Hey Jay, what would you estimate the line to be that the Reno participants will receive: a) partial payment of prizes, and b) complete payment of prizes?

I'm thinking roughly 2-1 and about 9-2 against. Odds would double in another week.

Martin



jay helfert said:
Jimmy, I refer you to my response on the "Chicago" thread.
 
jazznpool said:
Hey Jay, what would you estimate the line to be that the Reno participants will receive: a) partial payment of prizes, and b) complete payment of prizes?

I'm thinking roughly 2-1 and about 9-2 against. Odds would double in another week.

Martin


Sorry Martin. I'm not making book on other people's misfortune. Read my post in the Chicago thread.
 
memikey said:
He did no such thing.He charged them a membership fee direct, can't remember exactly how much it was (about $800/-?).Then he charged them an indirect fee in the form of them all having to travel and show up to dance for the media at the KOH,whether they were playing or not:(
IIRC, he was originally going to charge something like $799 or $899 for members but then dropped the membership fee completely for the 150 tour card holders. Linda, or one of the other players, can you confirm please? I know they didn't pay the original membership fee that was first mentioned.
 
Now that you mention it I do vaguely remember something about the orignal fee perhaps being waived but easy for any of us outsiders to get confused there have been so many twists and turns and contradictions and secrecy.If he was generous to the players at that point it's perhaps high time he got back on that same track with them again.
 
jasper said:
It was $1.00
Boy people sure are going out of their way to find something to complain about.

Originally it was $899. Then after the uproar, it was changed to $1.00
 
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