Once the ball is called frozen, shooter can change his mind all he wants , but the ball is still frozen if he comes back to it. One of the greatest travesties of modern days is that we did away with stocks and dunce caps.
Object Ball Frozen to Rail Rule
- Thread starter Jude Rosenstock
- Start date
I think people should just learn the rules. Lol. This particular one isn't complicated or ambiguous at all.
I see many players that don't understand the rule about pushing the cb, when the cb is very close to the ob. Some people think you have to elevate your cue even if shooting away/cutting the ob. They ask for a ref or for someone to watch the shot in case there's a push or double hit, even on the shots when it's nearly impossible to push or double hit the cb. Should we disregard that rule also, since so many players don't understand it anyway?
If the governing body of pocket billiards decides to change the ob frozen to the rail rule, that's fine. Short of a few arguments where a player doesn't know the rule or doesn't call the ball frozen prior to the shot, the only difference it'll make is this: It'll be a major benefit for the player currently at the table, allowing an easy safety by simply rolling the cb up against the ob without having to have the cb contact a cushion. That opens up a whole bag of easy lockdowns that would otherwise not be legal.
Based on the poll, I doubt it gets changed. I mean, nearly 85% of those who've participated are in favor of the way it is now.
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Good question...
Legally it's up to the non-shooter to raise the flag. This is a shot by shot circumstance. What happened prior has no bearing on future shots. No ass****... <--This is objective
That said, the shooter is imo an ass**** for shooting at a ball knowing full well it's still most likely frozen without notifying the other player. <--This is my subjective opinion.
If pool players want to consider their game a sport, then they should hold themselves accountable and be sportsmanlike.
Some players like to play to the utmost of their ability and let failure or success fall as it may. Others get off on seeing what they can get away with, and will take advantages at the expense of sportmanlike conduct. I have respect for the first group.
I've seen fights break out over it.
Both actually. The actual physical fight was whether the ball was frozen or not. It quickly turned into a "you're just trying to cheat me" type of argument and then got physical. Seen plenty of verbal "fights" over a shooter not giving the opponent time to declare the ball frozen.
People can certainly disagree on whether they see light between the ball and the rail. You can't say there is no room for debate, people debate it plenty. With a ref presiding over the match it's binary. When two people are gambling, it's easily debatable.
I don't think it's a whole bag. I think there is one type of safety that would be easier to execute, specifically the kick-safe (often played in 1p and 8ball). The rest of the safeties are happening either way.
EDIT: I'll add the kiss-back safety too. That one would certainly be in play now.
That is absolutely true. "pool is a beautiful game played by ugly people"....and there is this whole debate wrapped up with a ribbon on top.
There's a rule that's nothing new. It's not whether or not the OB is frozen. It's the requirement to either pot a ball or hit a rail for legal shot. Determining a frozen ball seems like an annoyance, but if it is, then the rules still apply and you must either directly pot the ball or hit a rail with a ball. A rail already being touched doesn't count. Everytime a shot that could potentially put the frozen ball in play is attempted, the declaration of the frozen ball needs to be clearly made.
The situation is played simply. It's up to the non-shooter to declare a ball frozen. Just like it's up to the non-shooter to ask for a third party to watch a potential foul. If the shooter is of character we all claim to be, then he will volunteer the "frozen" declaration. In either case, once the non-shooter has raised the flag, then either the two players have an agreement or get a third party to watch the shot.
Once you have a situation move beyond the above you then have an "asshole". The frozen ball situation isn't the problem. It's the player. This same player will take advantage of any rule/situation.
Don't hate the game, hate the players
I think he's saying the shooter actually shoots at a different ball first, and THEN shoots at the frozen ball. Couldn't the ball have become unfrozen during the first shot? Nit picky for sure, I think that's why Jude brought it up.
Speak for yourself.
While that's true, officially, the declaration expires after the shot. You have to declare it before each shot so that the shooter is aware. I mean, there is a reasonable chance in a game like 8ball, someone can say after the break that the 13 ball is frozen. The shooter buzzes around the table, shoots the six other stripes and then plays safe on the 13. If the sitting player doesn't say it's still frozen, it's not.
Officially, that is the rule. If you're saying there should be another rule OR that guy is a nit for not honoring the original declaration that the ball was frozen, then you are just adding fodder to my argument that this rule is silly.
I'm on your side. The declaration of the frozen ball has expired after the shot. This is how arguments/fights happen. I dislike the rule.
Sorry, I meant the royal "you". Not YOU.
I was in Austin about a month ago. Went to a tournament at Skinny Bob's and was hoping to run into you. Maybe next time!Sorry, I meant the royal "you". Not YOU.
It's sorta been a combination of COVID and my recent engagement. I've been busy and avoiding public spaces. I just got my first shot last week and that's also when I started going to the poolroom again on a more regular basis. I was there for the Skinny Bob's Open though, is that the tournament you're talking about? Starting in May, I should be back to my normal life, I think. There's a new poolroom about a mile from me and I've only spent 30 minutes there so I'm really looking forward to getting back in the swing of things.
Nope, just a Friday night tournament. Solid field though.
Also add the simple shot of just rolling the cb up against the ob to leave your opponent tree-topped/jacked-up.
And simply rolling the cb into the ob and leaving the cb behind it as close as possible, within a half inch, because the cb wouldn't have to be hit firm enough to contact a rail, and the ob would only slightly move.
I imagine the occassional stalemate ending with each player simply bumping the ob, like the 8ball, when neither player wants to chance a bank or play a safety that might leave the opponent a bank or thin cut. So they keep tapping the cb into the 8 because it won't matter if it's frozen to the cushion or not. Of course, eventually the cb might end up too close to the ob and a ref will have to come over and watch the shot for a double hit.
Anyway, Ithink I would like the advantage it would give on occasion, but at the same time I would not like my opponent getting that advantage! Lol
Yeah, the weekly tournaments have always had a lot of shortstops. I'd say the average is six out of the 20 or so that frequent the room, and it could be anyone from that 20.