Object ball on low deflection cue

LD shafts aren't "designed to maximize tip deflection off the CB", because that wouldn't help materially with low deflection - because (again) shaft deflection has insignificant effect on squirt.

pj
chgo

The last few inches are made lighter to reduce end mass, which allows the weight of the CB to deflect the shaft. In other words, the shaft moves more laterally so that the cb moves less laterally. A shaft with greater end mass will deflect less and cause more cb squirt. A shaft with less end mass will deflect more and cause less cb squirt. So shaft deflection has a direct effect on CB squirt. I must be misunderstanding what you are trying to say.
 
The last few inches are made lighter to reduce end mass, which allows the weight of the CB to deflect the shaft. In other words, the shaft moves more laterally so that the cb moves less laterally. A shaft with greater end mass will deflect less and cause more cb squirt. A shaft with less end mass will deflect more and cause less cb squirt. So shaft deflection has a direct effect on CB squirt.
Your statements aren't entirely true in all cases. See my previous posts and the linked material for explanations and demonstrations. The deflection (flex) and vibration of the shaft depends on shaft stiffness. CB deflection (squirt) depends almost entirely on "endmass" (not stiffness).

Regards,
Dave
 
The last few inches are made lighter to reduce end mass, which allows the weight of the CB to deflect the shaft.
In other words, the shaft moves more laterally so that the cb moves less laterally.
I'd say "the shaft moves laterally more easily".

A shaft with greater end mass will deflect less and cause more cb squirt. A shaft with less end mass will deflect more and cause less cb squirt. So shaft deflection has a direct effect on CB squirt.
That's mostly coincidental.

pj
chgo
 
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Your statements aren't entirely true in all cases. See my previous posts and the linked material for explanations and demonstrations. The deflection (flex) and vibration of the shaft depends on shaft stiffness. CB deflection (squirt) depends almost entirely on "endmass" (not stiffness).

Regards,
Dave

Maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

PRECONDITION
A shaft has low endmass AND it is very stiff AND it happens to perform well as a LD shaft

QUESTIONS
1) When the tip of that shaft encounters the curve of the cueball, will its trajectory be redirected laterally (without necessarily flexing the shaft)?

2) If I increase the endmass of the shaft, will the trajectory of the shaft be redirected laterally less?
 
Your statements aren't entirely true in all cases. See my previous posts and the linked material for explanations and demonstrations. The deflection (flex) and vibration of the shaft depends on shaft stiffness. CB deflection (squirt) depends almost entirely on "endmass" (not stiffness).

Regards,
Dave

Not sure what statements you're considering not "entirely true" in all cases.

A heavier end mass causes the cue shaft to deflect less and the CB to squirt more. Correct?

A lighter end mass causes more shaft deflection and less CB squirt. Correct?

A LD shaft is actually a high deflection shaft, and this is why it reduces CB squirt. The high shaft deflection is a direct result of decreasing its end mass so that it doesn't influence the CB as much. Correct?

The same info can be found on your website. I'm sure it is always true -- how end mass affects shaft deflection and cb squirt -- unless the shaft has zero flex and is supported by an unwavering bridge. In that case, if the shaft is unable to deflect (due to zero flexibility) from the stroke line, end mass shouldn't matter, low or high, the cb will be forced to squirt/deflect aside to make way for the unwavering shaft. It's not realistic of course because no shaft has zero flex and no bridge hand has zero give.
 
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Not sure what statements you're considering not "entirely true" in all cases.



A heavier end mass causes the cue shaft to deflect less and the CB to squirt more. Correct?



A lighter end mass causes more shaft deflection and less CB squirt. Correct?



A LD shaft is actually a high deflection shaft, and this why it reduces CB squirt. The high shaft deflection is a direct result of decreasing its end mass so that it doesn't influence the CB as much. Correct?



The same info can be found on your website. I'm sure it is always true -- how end mass affects shaft deflection and cb squirt -- unless the shaft has zero flex and is supported by an unwavering bridge. In that case, if the shaft is unable to deflect (due to zero flexibility) from the stroke line, end mass shouldn't matter, low or high, the cb will be forced to squirt/deflect aside to make way for the unwavering shaft. It's not realistic of course because no shaft has zero flex and no bridge hand has zero give.


Just to emphasize what you’re saying. Flex is shaft deflection. But shaft deflect is not necessarily flex. Another form of shaft deflection is simply the trajectory of the shaft (as an unbending whole) being redirected. Correct?


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Maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

PRECONDITION
A shaft has low endmass AND it is very stiff AND it happens to perform well as a LD shaft

QUESTIONS
1) When the tip of that shaft encounters the curve of the cueball, will its trajectory be redirected laterally (without necessarily flexing the shaft)?

2) If I increase the endmass of the shaft, will the trajectory of the shaft be redirected laterally less?

I think you and I are of the same thinking here with regards to a LD shaft giving way (deflecting) so that the cb deflects/squirts less.

Dr. Dave worded it great in response to this question:

What is the difference between a low-deflection shaft and a low-squirt shaft?

"Nothing. They are the same. A low-squirt shaft creates less ("low") cue-ball squirt but actually results in large ("high") cue deflection (because the end of the shaft is lighter and usually more flexible ... so it deflects away from the CB more with an off-center hit). So a "low"-deflection shaft actually has "high" deflection!!!"
 
Just to emphasize what you’re saying. Flex is shaft deflection. But shaft deflect is not necessarily flex. Another form of shaft deflection is simply the trajectory of the shaft (as an unbending whole) being redirected. Correct?


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That's how I see it....I mean, as long as the CB forces the shaft aside more than the shaft forces the CB aside, we get more shaft deflection and less CB deflection/squirt. It really shouldn't matter whether the shaft is super flexible or extra stiff, as long as it doesn't exert too much side force on the CB.

I just know the steel rod and aluminum rod had two extreme end masses -- one very heavy and one very light. But both caused extreme CB squirt. It had to be because both were non-flexible, I would think. But my test was nothing as scientific as the stroke machine that Dr Dave used to compare shaft deflections and squirts and so forth. I was just testing the extremes, the most rigid flex conditions where only the end mass was different.
 
Maybe this might help clear up some confusion.

PRECONDITION
A shaft has low endmass AND it is very stiff AND it happens to perform well as a LD shaft

QUESTIONS
1) When the tip of that shaft encounters the curve of the cueball, will its trajectory be redirected laterally (without necessarily flexing the shaft)?
... only because the CB starts to turn and pushes the tip sideways. With typical pool equipment, most (all, practically speaking) of the cue deflection is due to flex of the end of the shaft. That's why only the end of the shaft affects the effective "endmass" and squirt.

2) If I increase the endmass of the shaft, will the trajectory of the shaft be redirected laterally less?
Incorrect. With more endmass, there will be a larger sideways force (in reaction to the squirt force on the CB). This will impart more momentum to the endmass, causing the end of the shaft to flex and vibrate more.

Honestly, none of this is important to the understanding of squirt. More "endmass" causes the CB to squirt more. Less "endmass" causes the CB to squirt less. I think it is best to ignore what the cue is doing (especially after impact, where most of the flex and shaft vibration occur.

Regards,
Dave
 
Honestly, none of this is important to the understanding of squirt. More "endmass" causes the CB to squirt more. Less "endmass" causes the CB to squirt less. I think it is best to ignore what the cue is doing (especially after impact, where most of the flex and shaft vibration occur.



Regards,

Dave


I see endmass as a variable. I see low deflection as an outcome. In between is a sequence of interactions and forces that I’m sure can be explained with some very complex math and equations. I expect they also could be dumbed down to explain to a layman. That’s my goal. The next time I talk to my brother, I’m willing to say endmass affects deflection but I’m looking to figure out an intuitive way to explain why that is. So far I’m not really getting that layman’s explanation from your site or this conversation. Everything just keeps going back to asserting the relevant variable without explaining why. I don’t mind dropping the subject if the conversation is never going to take that turn.



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A heavier end mass causes the cue shaft to deflect less
Not true, unless the heavier mass comes with more shaft-end stiffness.

and the CB to squirt more.
Correct.

Endmass creates squirt (CB deflection). Cue flex and vibration (which occur after the CB leaves the cue tip) depends on the stiffness of the shaft.

FYI, as I have been answering questions, I've been adding more clarifications to the following page:

"squirt," "deflection," "stiffness"

Please check out this new and improved version. I think the page and linked resources now answer all of the question in this thread fairly clearly.

Regards,
Dave
 
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I see endmass as a variable. I see low deflection as an outcome. In between is a sequence of interactions and forces that I’m sure can be explained with some very complex math and equations. I expect they also could be dumbed down to explain to a layman. That’s my goal. The next time I talk to my brother, I’m willing to say endmass affects deflection but I’m looking to figure out an intuitive way to explain why that is. So far I’m not really getting that layman’s explanation from your site or this conversation. Everything just keeps going back to asserting the relevant variable without explaining why. I don’t mind dropping the subject if the conversation is never going to take that turn.
Here's a simple explanation I added to the what causes squirt? page:

With an off-center hit, while the tip is in contact with the CB, the CB starts to move forward and turn. The ball turn pushes the tip away sideways causing the end mass of the shaft to move. Mass doesn't like to move, so it pushes back during contact (because for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). That's why the CB deflects (squirts) off line.

I hope that helps,
Dave
 
When i tried a 12.9mm Revo it felt WAAAAAY stiffer than my Olney but squirt was almost non-existent. How is this achieved?
 
When i tried a 12.9mm Revo it felt WAAAAAY stiffer than my Olney but squirt was almost non-existent. How is this achieved?
Carbon fiber. it is much lighter and much stiffer than wood.

Regards,
Dave
 
I see endmass as a variable. I see low deflection as an outcome. In between is a sequence of interactions and forces that I’m sure can be explained with some very complex math and equations. I expect they also could be dumbed down to explain to a layman. That’s my goal. The next time I talk to my brother, I’m willing to say endmass affects deflection but I’m looking to figure out an intuitive way to explain why that is. So far I’m not really getting that layman’s explanation from your site or this conversation. Everything just keeps going back to asserting the relevant variable without explaining why. I don’t mind dropping the subject if the conversation is never going to take that turn.



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I'm with you on this. I like simple explanations to complicated problems.

Put it this way: When a sliding (stun) CB strikes an OB at an off-center hit (not a straight on center to center hit), the OB is forced along the line from the contact point through the center of the OB, creating a cut shot. The CB's path is deflected from the contact point at 90° from the direction the OB is sent. (This is ignoring OB throw and CB roll or spin.) Since friction is minimal at the contact point, there is maximum CB deflection away from the OB.

By comparison, when the cue tip strikes the CB at an off-center hit, the shaft gets deflected in a similar way as above. But the tip has mucho friction, which means it tries to hold on or grip the CB surface. But the ball weighs 6oz and the end of the shaft (last 7 or 8 inches) might be 2oz or less. So the 6oz ball exerts a greater force on the 2oz end mass of the shaft, forcing it away, and at the same time the friction between the tip and the ball is causing the ball to rotate. On top of being forced laterally by the CB's weight, the tip rides this rotation, and if the shaft has a very light end mass it will quickly be forced to deflect away from the CB to avoid excessive CB squirt.

No need to talk about equations or Newton's 3rd law of equal and opposite reactions. Just knowing that something must give, common sense means the lighter/smaller mass will give way to the larger mass every time. So more shaft deflection results in less CB deflection. But let's say a shaft is made to have zero flexibility (for whatever reason). And we used a fixed bridge and grip device that would ensure the cue stick remained on the stroke line throughout the entire stroke.
The full weight of the cue stick, say 19oz, would then be the dominant factor upon collision with the side of the cb. There would be no shaft deflection. The cue tip would push the cb aside with ease, despite shaft end mass. The 6oz ball can push back all it wants, but if the shaft doesn't give it will not deflect, and will therefore cause maximum cb squirt. That's an extreme example. At the other extreme we could shoot with a super light shaft made of flexible foam. In this case we'd have maximum shaft deflection and minimal cb squirt. But we also have less transfer of force to the cb.

I guess since every cue shaft has flexibility, making the tip end lighter is an automatic way to create less CB squirt. That's why shaft end mass is the main factor, and not shaft stiffness. Even the revo has enough flexibility so that its super light end mass is what makes the difference in minimizing cb squirt.
 
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I'm with you on this. I like simple explanations to complicated problems.

Put it this way: When a sliding (stun) CB strikes an OB at an off-center hit (not a straight on center to center hit), the OB is forced along the line from the contact point through the center of the OB, creating a cut shot. The CB's path is deflected from the contact point at 90° from the direction the OB is sent. (This is ignoring OB throw and CB roll or spin.) Since friction is minimal at the contact point, there is maximum CB deflection away from the OB.

By comparison, when the cue tip strikes the CB at an off-center hit, the shaft gets deflected in a similar way as above. But the tip has mucho friction, which means it tries to hold on or grip the CB surface. But the ball weighs 6oz and the end of the shaft (last 7 or 8 inches) might be 2oz or less. So the 6oz ball exerts a greater force on the 2oz end mass of the shaft, forcing it away, and at the same time the friction between the tip and the ball is causing the ball to rotate. On top of being forced laterally by the CB's weight, the tip rides this rotation, and if the shaft has a very light end mass it will quickly be forced to deflect away from the CB to avoid excessive CB squirt.

No need to talk about equations or Newton's 3rd law of equal and opposite reactions. Just knowing that something must give, common sense means the lighter/smaller mass will give way to the larger mass every time. So more shaft deflection results in less CB deflection. But let's say a shaft is made to have zero flexibility (for whatever reason). And we used a fixed bridge and grip device that would ensure the cue stick remained on the stroke line throughout the entire stroke.
The full weight of the cue stick, say 19oz, would then be the dominant factor upon collision with the side of the cb. There would be no shaft deflection. The cue tip would push the cb aside with ease, despite shaft end mass. The 6oz ball can push back all it wants, but if the shaft doesn't give it will not deflect, and will therefore cause maximum cb squirt. That's an extreme example. At the other extreme we could shoot with a super light shaft made of flexible foam. In this case we'd have maximum shaft deflection and minimal cb squirt. But we also have less transfer of force to the cb.

I guess since every cue shaft has flexibility, making the tip end lighter is an automatic way to create less CB squirt. That's why shaft end mass is the main factor, and not shaft stiffness. Even the revo has enough flexibility so that its super light end mass is what makes the difference in minimizing cb squirt.


It’s funny. I play in my mind various extremes and imagine how it plays out. Then I ease away from the extremes towards realistic scenarios by minor increments until I see where I think I see where a standard shaft and cueball contact plays out. Then I find where I think an LD shaft and cueball plays out. And it all aligns with what you’ve said 100%. I can see it as if it is playing out in slow motion.


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