OE vs. IE on the money ball

[jsp]

For cut shots on the money ball (where you're not worried about CB positioning, as long as you don't scratch), do you tend to use outside english or inside english to reduce throw or minimize the risk of skids?

In general, I thought using outside english is the accepted rule of thumb to help compensate for throw effects on all cut shots, and the amount of OE used is proportional to the cut angle. However, I was watching the Sigel versus Reyes DVD (with the volume turned off so I wouldn't have to listen to the commentary) and noticed that Reyes uses both outside AND inside english on cut shots on the 8, depending on the cut angle.

It seems for the his shots with small cut angles (less than 30 degrees) he uses outside english, but for the shots with larger cut angles he uses inside english.

Observing this reminded me of Calc's thread about his video showing the different throw effects of the same cut shot with different englishes. The most predictable results are his shots using inside english, and the most unpredictable was using outside english. Though, i do not know the cut angle of that particular shot he used for his data collection (Colin?).

I guess the reasoning one would use IE is that the reverse spin of the CB adds on to the linear speed of the CB such that the surface speed of the CB at the contact point will be too fast for friction to actually take hold. This would seem to work for large cut shots, but not very well for small cut shots.

Just wondering if other people out there uses inside english on larger cut shots as well.

 

[PROG8R]

It is in direct Proportion of the angle of the dangle to the heat of the meat

Good God son, don't over think it, just make the shot. All that quantum physics crap makes my head hurt.


PS
Just wondering if other people out there uses inside english on larger cut shots as well.

What ever is needed to make the shot, prefer no english, but outside more than inside. Most insides are hit soft for short shape shots.

 

[HitHrdNDraw]

For the love of God use outside english if you use english at all. Inside english is uniformly the hardest english to apply and still make an accurate hit. anyone who tells you differently is trying to steal your money. If you use a little inside english to avoid a scratch thats one thing, but other than that there is really no english

 

[mnShooter]

It seems for the his shots with small cut angles (less than 30 degrees) he uses outside english, but for the shots with larger cut angles he uses inside english.

Very interesting observations. I have been told that this is Efren's aiming system.

 

[mikepage]

For cut shots on the money ball (where you're not worried about CB positioning, as long as you don't scratch), do you tend to use outside english or inside english to reduce throw or minimize the risk of skids?

In general, I thought using outside english is the accepted rule of thumb to help compensate for throw effects on all cut shots, and the amount of OE used is proportional to the cut angle.

This is not a good thing to do. The problem is that while the the amount of throw is least for the perfect amount of outside english, the sensitivity of the amount of throw to deviations from perfect running english is the greatest here. If you really want to do it the worst possible way, use stun and "throw canceling" OE.

[... JSP notices Efren uses IE to cinch thin cuts]

I guess the reasoning one would use IE is that the reverse spin of the CB adds on to the linear speed of the CB such that the surface speed of the CB at the contact point will be too fast for friction to actually take hold. This would seem to work for large cut shots, but not very well for small cut shots.

[...]

I think this reasoning makes sense. But to have these benefits outweigh aiming errors introduced by the IE, I suppose you'd have to aim like.....like... Efren.

I think hitting with follow is most important. This reduces the amount of throw compared to a stun shot. Other than that if scratching is not an issue, I think no-english is best for mortals.

mike page
fargo

mike page
fargo

 

[KMRUNOUT]

Normally I try to separate the terms "english" and "money ball". I think that in most cases, an accurate straight stroke will do the trick much better than english. So I usually hope a center ball hit will work. If so, that's what I'll do. If anything, maybe a TINY amount of outside. Like 1/8 tip. This seems to be fairly effective so far.

KMRUNOUT

 

[Cornerman]

For the love of God use outside english if you use english at all. Inside english is uniformly the hardest english to apply and still make an accurate hit. anyone who tells you differently is trying to steal your money.

I disagree.

Fred

 

[Snapshot9]

You use

whatever is easiest for you to use, if any, while keeping the cue ball entirely safe from scratching, and you do not run the cue ball anymore around the table than you have to on the shot.

I have a tendency to use inside english quite a bit more than the average player does, so inside english doesn't bother me, but each shot should be
evaluated individually.

 

[Colin Colenso]

For cut shots on the money ball (where you're not worried about CB positioning, as long as you don't scratch), do you tend to use outside english or inside english to reduce throw or minimize the risk of skids?

In general, I thought using outside english is the accepted rule of thumb to help compensate for throw effects on all cut shots, and the amount of OE used is proportional to the cut angle. However, I was watching the Sigel versus Reyes DVD (with the volume turned off so I wouldn't have to listen to the commentary) and noticed that Reyes uses both outside AND inside english on cut shots on the 8, depending on the cut angle.

It seems for the his shots with small cut angles (less than 30 degrees) he uses outside english, but for the shots with larger cut angles he uses inside english.

Observing this reminded me of Calc's thread about his video showing the different throw effects of the same cut shot with different englishes. The most predictable results are his shots using inside english, and the most unpredictable was using outside english. Though, i do not know the cut angle of that particular shot he used for his data collection (Colin?).

I guess the reasoning one would use IE is that the reverse spin of the CB adds on to the linear speed of the CB such that the surface speed of the CB at the contact point will be too fast for friction to actually take hold. This would seem to work for large cut shots, but not very well for small cut shots.

Just wondering if other people out there uses inside english on larger cut shots as well.

My test: Video here uses approximately 1/2 ball (30 degrees) cut angle.

I tested some shots at 1/4 ball and got almost an identical spread, though the variation range narrowed a little.

OE at low speeds will cut the ball noticeably more for the same contact point I have found, though this difference decreases with higher speed shots.

For very fine cuts...around 80 degrees, if close I will opt for OE, especially if it is not a high speed shot.

For medium cuts 15 to 60 degrees, if I have to use side english I'll opt for IE, as I find it very predictable and the contact point will closely correspond to that required for natural roll potting.

I think most have a preference for one or the other based on the fact that they'll tend to cut finer when lining up this way.

There is a good argument for doing all this by memorization - intuitive judgement, but I also think it is useful to know the variables at play, such as speed, cut angle, amount of tip offset, effect of sweeping, swerve.

That way, if the player starts missing the shot, or struggles with a particular variation of the shot, he stands a better chance of recognizing the variable/s responsible and hence fixing the problem efficiently, without resorting to a nonsensical quick fix measure, such as sweeping across the CB or aiming to a point that doesn't look right, cures that may introduce problems to other shots.

On all OE shots except very fast OE shots, and on lower speed and lower cut angle (0-10 degrees) IE shots the contact point required to pocket the OB will be different than the contact point required for a natural rolling pot.

There are 2 basic ways to deal with this.
1. Manipulating the squirt deflection via changing (lengthening) the bridge (using aim and pivot) or increasing the speed.
Disadvantage: Will need to factor in distance betwee CB and OB.

2. Changing the initial aim to under cut for OE or overcut for IE. Then pivot at bridge length that represents the pivot point.
Disadvantage: Estimation of alignment can be difficult. (Brain seems to prefer to aim to pocket the ball.)

The reason I bring this up, is because I think it is important for the player to know what in fact it is he is trying to achieve, which variables he is trying to control. Otherwise it is hard to learn how to control the variables.

It's no easy task to gain control over them all, but then again I think it is a much harder task to learn through intuitive judgement how to play all variations of speed, english, cut angle and distance consistantly well.

Most decent players have a stock set of english shots that they repeat often and feel comfortable with, but they also lack confidence in a wide array of possible shots that utilize english that could be added to their arsenal with a more powerful systematized approach.

 

[Andrew Manning]

If it's a cut down the rail, I use inside english, since for me that makes it much easier to make the OB hug the rail, ensuring it doesn't bobble. I don't have a physics explanation for why inside seems to help me on this shot, it just does.

If center ball gives me any risk of scratching, I use whichever english puts the CB most "out of trouble". For instance, on this shot I use a little outside to avoid the scratch one rail cross-corner:

http://CueTable.com/P/?#4HSmQ3PEJc4cSmQ4cdxB3kEJc4kRPd4kbWI3kDIh#

If scratching isn't a big risk, and the shot isn't on a rail, my "cinch" stroke is medium-slow speed with one tip of high-center english to give the cue ball a natural roll with no side spin. This is my most accurate shot, all things considered.

-Andrew

 

[steev]

i've been switching to IE for a while now, it takes work but has nice effects. for instance:

CueTable Help

with IE, the transferred spin (right) will make this ball off of the far point if you undercut it a hair. it'll hit the bottom rail slightly, then the opposite point and spin in. so, with IE, you have a bigger target for this shot.

more margin for error == higher % make == $$

just one of a few reasons why i'm switching to IE for 30-degree plus cuts...work must be boring for me to write this much.

-s

 

[Colin Colenso]

The problem is that while the the amount of throw is least for the perfect amount of outside english, the sensitivity of the amount of throw to deviations from perfect running english is the greatest here. If you really want to do it the worst possible way, use stun and "throw canceling" OE.

mike page
fargo

Good point!
Getting that right amount of OE to cancel out the significant effect of a stun shot. (In particular a slowish stun shot) requires accurate judgement. A slight over or under application of OE can dramatically effect the angle the OB travels.

Unfortunately, it is a stock standard shot. Such as when playing an object ball which is midway on the long rail, and stunning with a touch of english to bring the CB towards the center of the table. Not to mention the many other shots where softish stun is the most suitable way to position the CB on a shot.

In those cases, there doesn't seem to be a way around learning to get the touch OE (Throw cancel out effect) under control.

As Mike and others suggested, if you can roll a ball in, that is the way to go. A touch of OE in soft fine cuts is also not a bad idea, especially as it can help to reduce skids (kicks).

 

[Colin Colenso]

i've been switching to IE for a while now, it takes work but has nice effects. for instance:

CueTable Help

with IE, the transferred spin (right) will make this ball off of the far point if you undercut it a hair. it'll hit the bottom rail slightly, then the opposite point and spin in. so, with IE, you have a bigger target for this shot.

more margin for error == higher % make == $$

just one of a few reasons why i'm switching to IE for 30-degree plus cuts...work must be boring for me to write this much.

-s

A couple of points on this example:
1. IE transfers much less spin than a stun shot. It transfers about the same as natural roll spin on cut shots.

2. I wouldn't use IE or OE on the shot you diagrammed unless I had to, as bridging on or over the rail is likely to bring swerve into the equation.

I even doubt using stun of this shot, to induce spin transfer, would be a net benefit. It would require a drag shot or higher speeds. Both can make the shot harder.

If you're making this shot more often with IE, I think it's an aiming issue.

 

[steev]

you don't have to believe me. it's ok. i only recently believed it myself. i'd like to point out that i'm a bar player, and usually play w/ dirty equipment. so i guess i get more throw (and transferred spin) than y'all pool-hall types would...on a 9ft with relatively clean balls, i'd reconsider.

-s

 

[jsp]

This is not a good thing to do. The problem is that while the the amount of throw is least for the perfect amount of outside english, the sensitivity of the amount of throw to deviations from perfect running english is the greatest here...

Good point. It took me quite a while before I figured this out.

I think this reasoning makes sense. But to have these benefits outweigh aiming errors introduced by the IE, I suppose you'd have to aim like.....like... Efren.

The shots that I noticed Efren hitting with IE were shots where the CB was less than 2 feet away from the OB. On long distance cuts, I agree that aiming errors introduced by IE would outweight its benefits.

Also, I just want to add that it didn't seem like Efren was puting tons of IE spin...maybe quarter to half tip's worth of IE. How can I tell? From the way the CB would straighten its rebound angle a bit after hitting a rail.

 

[jsp]

For very fine cuts...around 80 degrees, if close I will opt for OE, especially if it is not a high speed shot.

In general I agree. However, for instances where the OB is on or very close to the rail, I'd hit it with IE and not adjust for squirt as much as I normally would. Any extra squirt would make me hit the OB thinner, which wouldn't hurt. If, however, squirt causes me to miss the OB entirely, the reverse english would guarantee that I hit the OB on the rebound. The IE would then turn into OE going backwards, which might actually help in pocketing the OB on the way back.

For medium cuts 15 to 60 degrees, if I have to use side english I'll opt for IE, as I find it very predictable and the contact point will closely correspond to that required for natural roll potting.

Sounds like a very big range for doing IE. You really think IE will help things for intermediate cut shots between 15 degree to 30 degrees? Seems like IE for cut shots close to 15 degrees would really accentuate throw effects.

Great posts though Colin.

 

[pooltchr]

Inside english is uniformly the hardest english to apply and still make an accurate hit.

Can you explain why hitting one side of the cue ball as opposed to hitting the other side of the cue ball would make a difference as far as accurately hitting the object ball?
Steve

 

[Colin Colenso]

In general I agree. However, for instances where the OB is on or very close to the rail, I'd hit it with IE and not adjust for squirt as much as I normally would. Any extra squirt would make me hit the OB thinner, which wouldn't hurt. If, however, squirt causes me to miss the OB entirely, the reverse english would guarantee that I hit the OB on the rebound. The IE would then turn into OE going backwards, which might actually help in pocketing the OB on the way back.

Yes, with the OB on the rail, or very close to it, IE is usually the best choice I think. Also, I think it's best to aim rail first, ever so slightly.

Sounds like a very big range for doing IE. You really think IE will help things for intermediate cut shots between 15 degree to 30 degrees? Seems like IE for cut shots close to 15 degrees would really accentuate throw effects.

I've found that even as straight as 15 degrees, that throw is about the same as for natural roll. But if the shot is being played very slowly, the throw will come into play.

A common shot is about 5 degree cut, where the CB is played firm to run around two or three rails. Even on this shot, played quite firm with IE, the contact point is very close to natural roll.

Speed plays a big factor in determining friction, hence throw. Both the linear speed of the CB and the spin speed. So for low speed IE shots, such as just tweaking an angle off one rail for better position or to bump a ball (perhaps played at just a few miles per hour), the throw for IE can be significant even at 30 degree plus cut angles.

That is something that really needs some practice to determine, and when playing IE cut shots consider the speed before the shot is played, so as to determine the best way to aim.

 

[HitHrdNDraw]

attn: pooltchr

since you are a BCA instructor I am not going to get in an academic argument about deflection/throw etc. because i am sure you could give me the 7 ball in that department (although i doubt anywhere else). Grady Matthew addresses the issue of IE vs. OE on several occasions. All of those times he blatantly says when an A player is struggling or even when he is playing well, he is most likely to miss a ball when applying inside english. That seems to be the consensus from most A players I have played with. As a BCA instructor i am honestly disturbed that you would be endorsing using inside english when it is not necessary, the only time it should actually be used being 1. to obtain position/avoid a scratch 2. if a ball is frozen on the rail. not really sure why anyone would "teach" someone to use IE on a ball that does not fit those two criteria. inside english predisposes to a "thick" or full ball hit because of the deflecting of the cue ball initially away from the OB then curving back towards it, so why would you use that on a thin cut shot? please teach me

 

[Craig Fales]

When I'm on the money ball and there's no risk of scratching I don't use any english since there's no point in it....if you need to control the CB to keep it out of the pocket use just a little english....
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