Ok, Educate me here...

Beware_of_Dawg

..................
Silver Member
Ok I need some education...

I have no idea what effect various balance points have...

I heard someone describing their perfect cue they made a statement "based on my playing style a forward balance cue is a perfect fit" What does that mean? based on your playing style? what does the balance point being forward do? what about back weighted cues? what does that do? I need some help here, can we discuss this?

While we are at it, let dive further into some questions that I think other people might not understand but are afraid to ask 'cause they don't want to seem stupid. I don't mind looking stupid, I'll ask.

Shaft taper... I have no idea what the effect of various types of shaft tapers have and what taper is recommended for my "playing style"... by the way, how do I determine my "style"?
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Ok I need some education...

I have no idea what effect various balance points have...

I heard someone describing their perfect cue they made a statement "based on my playing style a forward balance cue is a perfect fit" What does that mean? based on your playing style? what does the balance point being forward do? what about back weighted cues? what does that do?

In my own humble opinion, it means absolutely nothing.

The balance point of the cue will affect the way it feels as you hold it and as you stroke. You will probably find you prefer the way one feels over another. "Playing style" has nothing at all to do with it. It's just a question of what balance point feels the best to you.

Beware_of_Dawg said:
Shaft taper... I have no idea what the effect of various types of shaft tapers have and what taper is recommended for my "playing style"... by the way, how do I determine my "style"?

For taper, it does make sort of a difference. You'll hear the term "pro taper", meaning the cue, narrow at the tip end, doesn't start getting thicker until you get a certain distance back from the tip. That is, the tapered part of the cue is between the joint and somewhere in the middle of the shaft; the remainder of the shaft is pretty much a cylinder. This is important if you have a tight closed bridge. You want the place where the cue starts to widen to be further back than your usual bridge distance, so the cue slides easily through your bridge.

The taper also affects how rigid or flexible the shaft is, which is a difference you'll notice when you shoot. However, like balance point, I don't think it makes a difference for the cue's performance; just the feel.

-Andrew
 
so a forward balance point and a rear balance point have absolutely nothing to do with how the cue plays? only how it feels?
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
so a forward balance point and a rear balance point have absolutely nothing to do with how the cue plays? only how it feels?

Correct.

But once again, this is just my own opinion, since "how the cue plays" means different things to different people.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
In my own humble opinion.

-Andrew

Andrew, thanks for the opinion. I appreciate it. Rep to you.

I'm really hoping for facts, with all the cue makers/collectors etc here someone must know the physics of the questions I'm asking???

Regarding the shaft taper being just another feel thing, that I know for a fact not only effects feel, shaft taper can also greatly effect how the cue plays.

Anybody know the answers to my questions? or anyone else care to back Andrews opinions as fact?
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Andrew, thanks for the opinion. I appreciate it. Rep to you.

I'm really hoping for facts, with all the cue makers/collectors etc here someone must know the physics of the questions I'm asking???

Regarding the shaft taper being just another feel thing, that I know for a fact not only effects feel, shaft taper can also greatly effect how the cue plays.

Anybody know the answers to my questions? or anyone else care to back Andrews opinions as fact?

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "how a cue plays". Do you mean how much squirt it has? How much English it puts on the ball? How fast the cue ball comes off the tip for a given speed of stroke?

The things you've mentioned don't affect squirt (shaft end-mass does, which depends on diameter but not really on taper), and they don't affect how much English you can put on the ball. I'm really not sure what affects how fast the CB comes off the tip, to be honest, but I doubt it has to do with balance, and probably not much to do with taper.

I guess what I'm saying here is that cues don't play. People play. "How a cue plays" to me is nothing more than "how well do I play with the cue", which has a decent bit to do with feel, a lot to do with squirt, and a lot to do with tip diameter. But cues aren't sports cars. One doesn't have higher performance than another. The sports car is the stroke. The cue is the drive shaft. The car won't go anywhere without it, and a Ferrari won't run with one taken out of a Mustang because it doesn't fit right, but the properties of the drive shaft itself are not responsible for how fast you can lap Laguna Seca. That's in the engine, the chassis, and the driver... in other words, YOU.

-Andrew
 
Beware_of_Dawg said:
Ok I need some education...

I have no idea what effect various balance points have...

I heard someone describing their perfect cue they made a statement "based on my playing style a forward balance cue is a perfect fit" What does that mean? based on your playing style? what does the balance point being forward do? what about back weighted cues? what does that do? I need some help here, can we discuss this?

While we are at it, let dive further into some questions that I think other people might not understand but are afraid to ask 'cause they don't want to seem stupid. I don't mind looking stupid, I'll ask.

Shaft taper... I have no idea what the effect of various types of shaft tapers have and what taper is recommended for my "playing style"... by the way, how do I determine my "style"?

Without reading any of the answers here's my take:

Pick up several cues and shoot with them. Whatever feels balanced to YOU then that's your cue. If I pick up my friends Mcdermott it feels forward balanced to ME. So does this mean that cue is forward balanced; no, not necessarily. But compared to my lighter weight front end due to Laminated shaft with a G10 pin (none metal) that makes my cue more balanced towards the back.

Hope this helps.
 
Balance certainly affects the way you play, especially when it comes to shots where you need to juice the ball or muscle the stroke. The way you bridge will be a huge factor in what balance is good for you. A forward balance weighs the cue down in front, keeping it down & steady as you stroke with a pendulum, allowing the cue's weight to swing forward & do the work. With an open bridge, the front weight keeps the shaft from lifting in the occurace of a draw shot, so the tip stays low & hits target. In other words, a forward balance is less affected by your grip hand muscles that so commonly cause a bad stroke in, but not limited to lower level players.

Your "style" of play can be summed up by how you play the game, stroke the cue & your rythm. You have fast players who shoot firm & use lots of spin, sprinting around the table like a caged animal with tense muscles. Then you have those slower guys who lightly hit the ball, letting the cue do the work & the balls never really seem to travel fast or move far. It's smooth & boring, like a poetry seminar. Everything is on que & effortless, flowing. The rest of us are somewhere between these to types of players. The first guy likely prefers a lighter cue with a neutral or slightly backward balance so he can be in control. The second guy likes a heavier cue with a forward balance, something that allows him to only guide & point the cue while it does the work for him. He doesn't grip the handle tight. The first player grips it like it's his ****. Two totally different ends of the spectrum, with a lot of players in the middle. So, are you a slow deliberate player who lets the cue freeball between your thumb & first two fingers, or are you the guy who grips the stick like a ball bat & wants total control over the movement? These are things that determine your style of play & can greatly factor in on what type of cue would work best for you. There's no right or wrong, no black & white. It's all grey. There's lots of variables & this only explains a couple basic ones. But this is what people mean when they claim a forward balance is great for their style of play.

As for shaft taper, it's a trade-off between structural integrity & comfort. A long pro-taper makes for a flexible shaft that is very comfortable to stroke, especially for the long neck strokers who stroke almost to the joint. It's harder to control spin, as it can be exagerrated & often unpredictable. A very stiff taper feels like a log, uncomfortable & rigid. It's easy to control speed & spin, but harder to aquire power spin. Quality of the wood affects this all a lot, too. Really old, heavy wood can be used in a long, skinny pro-taper & still hit stiff. Again, there's many variables. Most shafts fall in the middle somewhere. They should be a good medium of comfort & playability. Stiffer shafts produce more power, so you can hit the ball softer & still get good speed. Basically, you can finesse a shot that requires a hard hit. They also make the ball travel a little more predictable, so accuracy is easier. Flimsier tapers require you to hit a little harder for the same speed, and can be tricky as they often cause squirt that reduces accuracy. This can be noticed on long straight shots. You gotta have a good stroke to hit dead center on the cueball. A stiffer taper alleviates this to some degree because it won't induce as much spin given the same power. That means if you are on a long straight shot & your stroke is shaky, you may easily miss with a flimsy shaft do to unintended side spin. Unbintended spin will throw the ball & leave you scratching your head wondering what the f*ck just happened. The stiffer shaft will not induce as much spin, so if your stroke is a little off, you may still make the shot. It offers slightly more forgiveness in this situation. But in the end, it all comes down to personal preference, what works well for you.

My suggestion would be to find a cue that seems right, and stick to it unwavering. Just keep it & get used to it, learn it & learn to trust it. Swapping cues because this guy says this or that guy says that is a sure fire way to confuse you. You are you, and until you know your own game & play style & preferences, just stick with a nice production cue like a $250 Joss. When you understand yourself & your game a bit better, then contact a custom builder who is reputed to build cues that fit your style & preferences. From there you can fine tune, hone in on the qualities that will make a cue fit you specifically. Then keep it & don't second guess yourself, unless your game changes from the tense player to the smooth player. Then of course you might not like your old cue anymore. But by the time that happens, you'll not have any more questions to ask. I have seen world class players that don't know anything about cues, they just know how to play the game & they adjust to anything. I have seen world class players who know cues well enough to educate most cuemakers. It's all personal. You like this or you don't, or you don't care one way or the other. No big deal either way. But cues do indeed aid in how the game is played & can certainly affect how well the player performs. Some players adjust to anything, some require a perfect fit.

I hope the long winded answer helps. There's just not a simple or short way to explain it.
 
qbilder said:
Balance certainly affects the way you play, especially when it comes to shots where you need to juice the ball or muscle the stroke. The way you bridge will be a huge factor in what balance is good for you. A forward balance weighs the cue down in front, keeping it down & steady as you stroke with a pendulum, allowing the cue's weight to swing forward & do the work. With an open bridge, the front weight keeps the shaft from lifting in the occurace of a draw shot, so the tip stays low & hits target. In other words, a forward balance is less affected by your grip hand muscles that so commonly cause a bad stroke in, but not limited to lower level players.

Your "style" of play can be summed up by how you play the game, stroke the cue & your rythm. You have fast players who shoot firm & use lots of spin, sprinting around the table like a caged animal with tense muscles. Then you have those slower guys who lightly hit the ball, letting the cue do the work & the balls never really seem to travel fast or move far. It's smooth & boring, like a poetry seminar. Everything is on que & effortless, flowing. The rest of us are somewhere between these to types of players. The first guy likely prefers a lighter cue with a neutral or slightly backward balance so he can be in control. The second guy likes a heavier cue with a forward balance, something that allows him to only guide & point the cue while it does the work for him. He doesn't grip the handle tight. The first player grips it like it's his ****. Two totally different ends of the spectrum, with a lot of players in the middle. So, are you a slow deliberate player who lets the cue freeball between your thumb & first two fingers, or are you the guy who grips the stick like a ball bat & wants total control over the movement? These are things that determine your style of play & can greatly factor in on what type of cue would work best for you. There's no right or wrong, no black & white. It's all grey. There's lots of variables & this only explains a couple basic ones. But this is what people mean when they claim a forward balance is great for their style of play.

As for shaft taper, it's a trade-off between structural integrity & comfort. A long pro-taper makes for a flexible shaft that is very comfortable to stroke, especially for the long neck strokers who stroke almost to the joint. It's harder to control spin, as it can be exagerrated & often unpredictable. A very stiff taper feels like a log, uncomfortable & rigid. It's easy to control speed & spin, but harder to aquire power spin. Quality of the wood affects this all a lot, too. Really old, heavy wood can be used in a long, skinny pro-taper & still hit stiff. Again, there's many variables. Most shafts fall in the middle somewhere. They should be a good medium of comfort & playability. Stiffer shafts produce more power, so you can hit the ball softer & still get good speed. Basically, you can finesse a shot that requires a hard hit. They also make the ball travel a little more predictable, so accuracy is easier. Flimsier tapers require you to hit a little harder for the same speed, and can be tricky as they often cause squirt that reduces accuracy. This can be noticed on long straight shots. You gotta have a good stroke to hit dead center on the cueball. A stiffer taper alleviates this to some degree because it won't induce as much spin given the same power. That means if you are on a long straight shot & your stroke is shaky, you may easily miss with a flimsy shaft do to unintended side spin. Unbintended spin will throw the ball & leave you scratching your head wondering what the f*ck just happened. The stiffer shaft will not induce as much spin, so if your stroke is a little off, you may still make the shot. It offers slightly more forgiveness in this situation. But in the end, it all comes down to personal preference, what works well for you.

My suggestion would be to find a cue that seems right, and stick to it unwavering. Just keep it & get used to it, learn it & learn to trust it. Swapping cues because this guy says this or that guy says that is a sure fire way to confuse you. You are you, and until you know your own game & play style & preferences, just stick with a nice production cue like a $250 Joss. When you understand yourself & your game a bit better, then contact a custom builder who is reputed to build cues that fit your style & preferences. From there you can fine tune, hone in on the qualities that will make a cue fit you specifically. Then keep it & don't second guess yourself, unless your game changes from the tense player to the smooth player. Then of course you might not like your old cue anymore. But by the time that happens, you'll not have any more questions to ask. I have seen world class players that don't know anything about cues, they just know how to play the game & they adjust to anything. I have seen world class players who know cues well enough to educate most cuemakers. It's all personal. You like this or you don't, or you don't care one way or the other. No big deal either way. But cues do indeed aid in how the game is played & can certainly affect how well the player performs. Some players adjust to anything, some require a perfect fit.

I hope the long winded answer helps. There's just not a simple or short way to explain it.

I do not agree with many of these statements.
 
An opinion

I'm not an expert, instructor or cue builder. I do have some insite to your question about taper though:

Cues with different construction and balance will feel and play different. Pages can be written about the why's and how's but all that really matters is knowing what brings out your best.

Some bite on gimmicks and catch phrases, repeating them like they actually understand something...and others actually know what works for them. I have bought many dozens of cues over the years and have found a system that works for me:

Shoot a series of shots on equipment you know well and judge the cue based on the results. I put the cue ball on the head spot and freeze the object ball in the center of the foot rail. I then try to cut it into the corner pocket. The shot requires profound spin and accuracy. I can make it with some cues often. With a Predator or cue made to certain specs of taper and balance, I can't make the shot to save my life.

I learned to aim a certain way. Some cues are good for me and some suck. The next guy may run ten racks with the cue I throw away, but for me, there is a clear choice based on my reference shots.

Don't accept anybody's formula until you experiment first.
 
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so a forward balance point and a rear balance point have absolutely nothing to do with how the cue plays? only how it feels?

Well, if you are uncomfortable with how the cue feels, as in the balance point isn't right for you, then, it will affect your game tremendously.
I have a beautiful McDermott that feels like I have a piece of 2x4 in my right hand and a Leon Sly that feels like a Stradivarius.
Which cue is for sale and which cue is my player?
 
Actually, the butt taper has a great amount of difference when it coems to feel, since the butt is where the energy is transfered to your hand
 
everything about a cue will be different there is not two cues that play EXACTLY the same, its impossible. it is everything even down to the tip, to the bumper.
 
jasonlaus said:
I do not agree with many of these statements.

Your agreement was never a consideration when I made my post.

I'm sorry if i'm seeming like an ass. It's just that your post gives me that "fishing for drama" vibe. I apologise if i'm reading it wrong. I'd be delighted to conversate about the topic with you, but i'm not here to argue.
 
was it me that said that?

i rarely use a closed bridge, that's why. its a lot eaiser to put spin especially and just stroke with a forward balance cue. pro tapers are good for closed bridges, because the shaft doesnt start getting larger till later.

it has everything to do with my style and how it plays.. for me. i don't see how you can separate how it plays objectively and how it plays for you, andrew manning.
 
Last edited:
qbilder said:
Your agreement was never a consideration when I made my post.

I'm sorry if i'm seeming like an ass. It's just that your post gives me that "fishing for drama" vibe. I apologise if i'm reading it wrong. I'd be delighted to conversate about the topic with you, but i'm not here to argue.

I will start with your statement about stiff vs flimsy shafts. First off a flimsier SHAFT will DEFLECT, NOT THE CUEBALL. A STIFFER SHAFT will DEFLECT THE CUEBALL RESULTING IN SQUIRT, which is the opposite of your statement.
Be back later if I need to.
 
Oh my. What a mess!

I'll try to be short. (I forgot. I am less than 5 ft. tall, already!) :eek:

Anyway, the balance point is more important to some players than others. Some might want the cue to travel forward a little easier and a forward weighted cue would be good for this. Probably also be good to help hold the cue down for the shot, for some folks who lift too soon, or have a tendency to aim too high. Back weight would be best maybe for someone who wants the cue to stop when they want it to, not being pulled forward by the weight. Also probably good for the person who tends to aim or hit too low. Then, there are also physical issues which might control your opinion of a good balance point. If you have wrist or arm problems, you're not going to want to try controlling a cue that wants to lean forward or backward all the time. Height may even play into the reasons for a person's choice in where a cue is weighted. Generally, most cues are weighted around 19-20 inches from the large end of the butt, as this seems to be the most beneficial and commonly preferred location.

Taper... The thinner taper gives more action from the shaft. If you need it to bend a little, it will be more apt to do so. If you want the shaft to stay stiff, like you would want for a masse' shot, you would want a thicker shaft. I like the tip on my cue almost flat, instead of rounded, so I prefer a thinner, more responsive shaft with more action to it. (I can't shoot straight with a rounded tip.)

A lot of this stuff just depends on your preferences and convictions.
 
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