OK, so my last post has me asking myself????
- Thread starter NateSchoepf
- Start date
I'm going to elaborate a minute here because it seems some people here are a bit arrogant, high and mighty, pompous and self rightious. It amazes me daily at how many people are truely incapable of handling life differently as it comes. Far to often people have to have one exact way or answer for something and try to turn it into the end all be all way of life. You simply can't do it that way.
I don't like cheating and I don't advocate it. I don't cheat and I never have. If I make an error I own up to it. I can promise you this much though.....I've played some illegal defense in basketball plenty of times and the ref hasn't blown the wistle. Does that make me a cheater and the reason some mothers keep their kids out of the playground? Do you know how many people gamblers or not that consider playing execessive amounts of "safes" cheating. Its not so cut and dry.
You are a fool to ignore all forms of seediness and cheaters and simply walk away. Its become a part of society as a whole. Most of you people work for companies that test the very outer limits of whats legal and whats not without really knowing it or better yet without you really thinking is illegal or immoral. I bet at some point you've all done something questionable because you boss suggested you do it and you had no idea what you were doing was crossing the legal/cheater line.
Its in every sporting event and every facet of life. Pick anyone of your favorite teams and I promise you they cheat wether caught or not to gain any edge or advantage possible.
I don't like cheating and I don't advocate it. I don't cheat and I never have. If I make an error I own up to it. I can promise you this much though.....I've played some illegal defense in basketball plenty of times and the ref hasn't blown the wistle. Does that make me a cheater and the reason some mothers keep their kids out of the playground? Do you know how many people gamblers or not that consider playing execessive amounts of "safes" cheating. Its not so cut and dry.
You are a fool to ignore all forms of seediness and cheaters and simply walk away. Its become a part of society as a whole. Most of you people work for companies that test the very outer limits of whats legal and whats not without really knowing it or better yet without you really thinking is illegal or immoral. I bet at some point you've all done something questionable because you boss suggested you do it and you had no idea what you were doing was crossing the legal/cheater line.
Its in every sporting event and every facet of life. Pick anyone of your favorite teams and I promise you they cheat wether caught or not to gain any edge or advantage possible.
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I was playing in a local 8 ball tourney on Friday night and I did pretty well but after I was out I was talking to a guy I know from there. He started bragging about sharking a guy on purpose and because of it winning the match. I said to him - why are you bragging about that? If I was going to do that - which I never would - I certainly wouldn't go telling people and bragging about it.
I have known the guy for quite some time and while he is not a friend of mine there was a certian amount of respect gained just from knowing him over time and playing him and seeing him at the hall. Now all that respect is gone. After I said what I said he tried to downplay it like it wasn't a big deal, but it's too late now.
As far as cheating goes - I have never done it - I have seen people do it and it disgusts me. It doesn't happen often but when I do foul and nobody sees it - I see it and I know I did it and that is enough for me. Everytime I am handing them the cue ball and they are like - what happened - I explain what I did and they say - geez I didn't even see it.
BVal
I have known the guy for quite some time and while he is not a friend of mine there was a certian amount of respect gained just from knowing him over time and playing him and seeing him at the hall. Now all that respect is gone. After I said what I said he tried to downplay it like it wasn't a big deal, but it's too late now.
As far as cheating goes - I have never done it - I have seen people do it and it disgusts me. It doesn't happen often but when I do foul and nobody sees it - I see it and I know I did it and that is enough for me. Everytime I am handing them the cue ball and they are like - what happened - I explain what I did and they say - geez I didn't even see it.
BVal
"Its in every sporting event and every facet of life. Pick anyone of your favorite teams and I promise you they cheat wether caught or not to gain any edge or advantage possible."
A lady told me the best definition of "rationalize" that I have ever heard -- Rational lie -- sounds good, won't fly. Because everyone else does it does not mean that one should base their actions on it -- whatever it is.
Oh - and about arrogant, high and mighty and all that -- well I grew up on the streets, in orphanages and as a ward of the state. I guess I would be considered successful by many people and none of it based on any sort of unethical conduct. I feel that I owe society big time and give back in as many ways as I can. That begins with a career that emphasized working with the arguably worst people in society -- prison inmates.
A lady told me the best definition of "rationalize" that I have ever heard -- Rational lie -- sounds good, won't fly. Because everyone else does it does not mean that one should base their actions on it -- whatever it is.
Oh - and about arrogant, high and mighty and all that -- well I grew up on the streets, in orphanages and as a ward of the state. I guess I would be considered successful by many people and none of it based on any sort of unethical conduct. I feel that I owe society big time and give back in as many ways as I can. That begins with a career that emphasized working with the arguably worst people in society -- prison inmates.
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I'm not trying to insult you but that line is the most ignorant line I've ever heard in my life. Absolutely if everyone is doing something you should base your actions on it. I'm not saying do as they do....there is a difference again I'm not saying do as they do.JoeW said:
To go through life simply ignoring the actions of other because we disagree is pretty ridiculous. You can't go through life being just one way, you have to overcome and adapt to your surrounding to survive and find success by your own standards not someone else's but that in no way means to refrain from reacting to whats going on around you.
“Absolutely if everyone is doing something you should base your actions on it.”
Well – we have a bit of a semantic argument here. The actions of others certainly affect one’s behavior. And I agree that one must take these actions into account. However, what makes us the people we are is in our refusal to act as others do. Consider the wars we have become involved in, the criminals we must react to. We establish our own moral compass and act by what we consider civilized rules of conduct. This is true even to the extent that we will punish our own people who do not follow our way of life.
My argument is that one must identify their own set of values in life, and pool is a major part of my life right now. These values should be consistent with our overall values and we should not be affected by some sub-culture that adheres to antithetical values. It follows then, that one will “hang out” where the values are like minded. I can’t do away with grubby bars that cater to alcoholics. I can avoid and not recommend such places. This same argument applies to the game / sport of pool.
My opinion is not based on some elevated perception of the game but is an attempt to influence my peers not to accept such behavior. That is, as you point out, my reaction to the real world.
Well – we have a bit of a semantic argument here. The actions of others certainly affect one’s behavior. And I agree that one must take these actions into account. However, what makes us the people we are is in our refusal to act as others do. Consider the wars we have become involved in, the criminals we must react to. We establish our own moral compass and act by what we consider civilized rules of conduct. This is true even to the extent that we will punish our own people who do not follow our way of life.
My argument is that one must identify their own set of values in life, and pool is a major part of my life right now. These values should be consistent with our overall values and we should not be affected by some sub-culture that adheres to antithetical values. It follows then, that one will “hang out” where the values are like minded. I can’t do away with grubby bars that cater to alcoholics. I can avoid and not recommend such places. This same argument applies to the game / sport of pool.
My opinion is not based on some elevated perception of the game but is an attempt to influence my peers not to accept such behavior. That is, as you point out, my reaction to the real world.
Sounds like you and I are one the same page but somewhat different view points.JoeW said:
For some of the others here. I have a question for you, or more for you to ask yourself.
Have you ever floated a check? For anything, dinner, gas, rent or even a night out. Perhaps some of us should recalibrate or moral compass.
Oh, I have done far worse than that. And recovering Catholic that I am, I feel the guilt for many of my past misdeeds. I could begin with my service as a recon Marine during Vietnam. However, I do try to learn from my prior mistakes and I do try to have a set of morals with which I can go to sleep easily each night.
After my first wife died 14 years ago, it occurred to me that one can die at any time and I very sincerely believe in living each day as though it were my last with no need to apologize for yesterday’s behavior. I don’t always live up to it – but I do try. I recommend it highly as a very satisfying life style, low blood pressure, lots of laughs and much to be happy about.
After my first wife died 14 years ago, it occurred to me that one can die at any time and I very sincerely believe in living each day as though it were my last with no need to apologize for yesterday’s behavior. I don’t always live up to it – but I do try. I recommend it highly as a very satisfying life style, low blood pressure, lots of laughs and much to be happy about.
I have to say that I don't like posts like this (just a personal thing). The OP was asking people who "cheat" to step forward and say why they play. It is very obvious that he has a low opinion of this kind of person, so anyone who steps into the breach is going to get flamed. I have to admit that this thread didn't get as ugly as others have that started by attacking a group of people up front. If I were someone who cheated to win at pool, I wouldn't feel comfortable admitting it in this thread.
As regards the subject of cheating, in American society the moral values that we used to found the country on have slowly but inexorably gone down the toilet. Pool, like most everything else, is just a victim of society's digression. Stuff that used to be black and white is now gray. There are many contributing factors, but the bottom line is that the "me" generation is here to stay.
As regards the subject of cheating, in American society the moral values that we used to found the country on have slowly but inexorably gone down the toilet. Pool, like most everything else, is just a victim of society's digression. Stuff that used to be black and white is now gray. There are many contributing factors, but the bottom line is that the "me" generation is here to stay.
people
There are two kinds of people. The people who admit that they have cheated in some way large or small, and those who are silent or dishonest.The ones that allege to have never broken the rules in any way large are small are the ones that I know I can't trust to be honest about anything else either.
On the other hand, I touched a ball under my stick well back from my bridge recently in a strange pool hall far from home. Odds are that I will never see the person I was playing again since he was a stranger and I have no intention of ever returning to that particular hall. The ball didn't move noticeably however I immediately came off of my shot and declared a foul on myself. The other player asked what happened and I told him I had wallowed all over the two ball. A gross exaggeration but I had no intention of taking the shot if he suggested it.
Hu
bsmutz said:
There are two kinds of people. The people who admit that they have cheated in some way large or small, and those who are silent or dishonest.The ones that allege to have never broken the rules in any way large are small are the ones that I know I can't trust to be honest about anything else either.
On the other hand, I touched a ball under my stick well back from my bridge recently in a strange pool hall far from home. Odds are that I will never see the person I was playing again since he was a stranger and I have no intention of ever returning to that particular hall. The ball didn't move noticeably however I immediately came off of my shot and declared a foul on myself. The other player asked what happened and I told him I had wallowed all over the two ball. A gross exaggeration but I had no intention of taking the shot if he suggested it.
Hu
NateSchoepf said:
I've run into a lot of folks that just want to win (get) the money no matter what they have to do. They don't
care to know their skill level, and will try to get away with anything they can.
Before the pool area in my town closed a few years ago, cards became more popular, since it was cheaper
to play. And some folks were known to cheat. One time there were 53 cards found in the deck after a
couple hours of playing!
OK, I was hoping what happened wouldnt, I wanted to know why there are so many who think it is part of the game or it is gamesmanship, or whatever you want to call it, I call it cheating and yes that is offensive and no one likes being called a cheater but that is what it is. I know that in Football, Basketball, Baseball, and other sports they call it gamesmanship and part of the game but what I want to know is about POOL PLAYERS, if your willing to do it on the table for a few bucks I think you would be able to post why you think its ok, I saw other posts about giving bad racks and replies like, if you can do it, why not?
I guess I am just hoping pool will become a larger part of TV and the sports/games channels, along with bringing more money, sponserships, and tours that travel the country so I can see the best compete. But as far as I can tell this will never happen because of the reputation(and rightly so for the most part) that POOL, POOL HALLS, and POOL PLAYERS have made for themselves over the years, its to bad.
One thing I heard, and please let me know if this is wrong,
when the IPT first started or there first tournament, Kevin T.(whom I hate) was offering an extra $1000 if the player made a bank shot on the eight ball to win the game, now I heard that once a match was pretty much decided players were making deals to only go for banks on the eight so they could "win" more money. If this is true, what does that say about pool players at any level??
I guess I am just hoping pool will become a larger part of TV and the sports/games channels, along with bringing more money, sponserships, and tours that travel the country so I can see the best compete. But as far as I can tell this will never happen because of the reputation(and rightly so for the most part) that POOL, POOL HALLS, and POOL PLAYERS have made for themselves over the years, its to bad.
One thing I heard, and please let me know if this is wrong,
when the IPT first started or there first tournament, Kevin T.(whom I hate) was offering an extra $1000 if the player made a bank shot on the eight ball to win the game, now I heard that once a match was pretty much decided players were making deals to only go for banks on the eight so they could "win" more money. If this is true, what does that say about pool players at any level??
um, that they will take money when it is offered?
Um, that they will take money when it is offered? Some made deals to bank the eight before the matches were decided too. Put up extra prize money for doing something and professionals will go for it. Nobody ever attacked me for leading the first lap of a race, the middle lap, or the most laps although there were often extra monies put up for these things. KT made an offer and the players took him up on it. As long as both players were doing it, banking the eight had little or no effect on who won the matches.
Reputation has little to do with fact. College sports are perhaps the most crooked and most corrupt sports of all yet they are usually considered purer than pro sports. The holy grail, the Olympics, sold out the Winter Olympics for a measly few hundred thousand and fixing between the judges was rampant. Yet the Olympics are revered by most.
Pool has been looked down on since it's conception largely because it is a blue collar sport. Pool players sometimes perpetrate the low-life myths but it is far more the attitudes and closed minds of people who aren't pool players that are responsible for pool's poor reputation.
Hu
NateSchoepf said:
Um, that they will take money when it is offered? Some made deals to bank the eight before the matches were decided too. Put up extra prize money for doing something and professionals will go for it. Nobody ever attacked me for leading the first lap of a race, the middle lap, or the most laps although there were often extra monies put up for these things. KT made an offer and the players took him up on it. As long as both players were doing it, banking the eight had little or no effect on who won the matches.
Reputation has little to do with fact. College sports are perhaps the most crooked and most corrupt sports of all yet they are usually considered purer than pro sports. The holy grail, the Olympics, sold out the Winter Olympics for a measly few hundred thousand and fixing between the judges was rampant. Yet the Olympics are revered by most.
Pool has been looked down on since it's conception largely because it is a blue collar sport. Pool players sometimes perpetrate the low-life myths but it is far more the attitudes and closed minds of people who aren't pool players that are responsible for pool's poor reputation.
Hu
I used to ride a bicycle and have noticed many parallels between pool and bicycling. There are probably more people in the US that have ridden/ride a bicycle than play pool but there is little interest in the sport here. Europe is gaga over bicycling and pool/snooker. The big difference over here is that corporate sponsors still see a buck to be made via bicycling where they don't from pool. So professional bicyclers probably make a better living than professional pool players, but are still ignored by the general public unless they reach Lance Armstrong status. Granted Lance is probably more well known than any current pool player right now in the US, due to the cancer thing and the near impossibility of winning 7 tours. This lack of interest in the sport on the part of the general public has nothing to do, in my opinion, with the perception of the sport and therefore makes me think that the public perception of pool has little to do with its lack of popularity.
One thing I heard, and please let me know if this is wrong,
when the IPT first started or there first tournament, Kevin T.(whom I hate) was offering an extra $1000 if the player made a bank shot on the eight ball to win the game, now I heard that once a match was pretty much decided players were making deals to only go for banks on the eight so they could "win" more money. If this is true, what does that say about pool players at any level??[/QUOTE]
This is 100 percent right. I was there for the tourney. It was one of the first qualifiers for 2 of the 150 tour card holders. This particular one was held at Hard Times in Bellflower. Every major player was there that wasn't already a member. Ortmann and Orcullo ended up the winners. But yes they took the deal off the table ruining it for everyone when they found out that players were making "deals." Although personally I dont know what the big deal was, I mean it doesnt make sense. Put the offer out, and if a couple of guys want to say we both got to bank it, whats the difference?
when the IPT first started or there first tournament, Kevin T.(whom I hate) was offering an extra $1000 if the player made a bank shot on the eight ball to win the game, now I heard that once a match was pretty much decided players were making deals to only go for banks on the eight so they could "win" more money. If this is true, what does that say about pool players at any level??[/QUOTE]
This is 100 percent right. I was there for the tourney. It was one of the first qualifiers for 2 of the 150 tour card holders. This particular one was held at Hard Times in Bellflower. Every major player was there that wasn't already a member. Ortmann and Orcullo ended up the winners. But yes they took the deal off the table ruining it for everyone when they found out that players were making "deals." Although personally I dont know what the big deal was, I mean it doesnt make sense. Put the offer out, and if a couple of guys want to say we both got to bank it, whats the difference?
The Difference
The difference is that banking the eight is a plus for TV and was actually better for the IPT. Problem was that KT ran off at the mouth thinking it might cost him a thousand or two and when he found out he was more likely to spend tens of thousands on the deal he reneged. A precursor of things to come.
Hu
(edited to correct an extra close quote code.)
The difference is that banking the eight is a plus for TV and was actually better for the IPT. Problem was that KT ran off at the mouth thinking it might cost him a thousand or two and when he found out he was more likely to spend tens of thousands on the deal he reneged. A precursor of things to come.
Hu
RunoutalloverU said:
(edited to correct an extra close quote code.)
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Cheating to win...
Those players that can only win by some form of cheating are only cheating themselves out of learning to win honestly and finding out what it feels like to really be a winner, not a cheater. Beating someone without sharking or other ways of cheating is on a whole different level that cheats will never get the opportunity to experience. Beating a cheater is the best.
Those players that can only win by some form of cheating are only cheating themselves out of learning to win honestly and finding out what it feels like to really be a winner, not a cheater. Beating someone without sharking or other ways of cheating is on a whole different level that cheats will never get the opportunity to experience. Beating a cheater is the best.
The reason to shark or cheat ...
To win MONEY!
Unfortunately, success on the pool table is usually measured by how much cash the player is holding at the end of a tournament or a head to head matchup. If table skills are lacking then bad racking or sharking can still result in a win.
When I started learning the game, an old player told me that sharking was not the way to go because your game will eventually depend on these tactics. Instead, learn to play the game honestly. Since then, I have realized that I have no reason to cheat. It's not like I could retire on the prize money I could win at a pool tournament. Best to play it straight.
To win MONEY!
Unfortunately, success on the pool table is usually measured by how much cash the player is holding at the end of a tournament or a head to head matchup. If table skills are lacking then bad racking or sharking can still result in a win.
When I started learning the game, an old player told me that sharking was not the way to go because your game will eventually depend on these tactics. Instead, learn to play the game honestly. Since then, I have realized that I have no reason to cheat. It's not like I could retire on the prize money I could win at a pool tournament. Best to play it straight.