Ok, the craps

[jay helfert]

Here are my general guidelines for beating craps:
1. You must play at a place where somebody wins once in a while, not a bust-out joint like the Sands Regency in Reno.
2. Play only at night. There are rarely big wins in the daytime.
3. Use my "pocket system" with your cash. Assuming that you're into the ebb and flow of a good game, meaning you're winning and losing bets, go to your pocket occasionally with chips, not enough to destroy the integrity of the bankroll but enough so that you don't go broke if you lose what you're playing with on the table. The house doesn't like players to do this but it's your money. Examples from my past: In Atlantic City, when I once won $60,000 in 20 minutes, when I cashed in I had $17,000 in chips in my pockets. Another time in Reno, I cashed out $48,000 and had $13,000 in my pockets.
4. Try to begin play at a table where people are hollering, having a good time and have chips in front of them.
5. If you're playing where the odds aren't more than the 3, 4 and 5 times odds on the points always take the full odds. For newish players this means you can take 3 times odds on the 4 and 10, 4 times odds on the 5 and 9 and 5 times odds on the 6 and 8.
6. You MUST believe that the dice will pass.
7. Press intelligently, with courage but don't be crazy in this department.Just now, in Vegas I had a nice "hump roll", meaning if I got past this I am gonna win upwards of $15,000. The shooter had just made a five, where I had had a $250 flat bet and taked $1,000 odds. Now I wager $400 on the pass line and he gets an 8 for a point. I take two dimes ($2,000) odds and make three come bets for only $100 but with full odds. Now, if he makes the 8 , I get $2,400 to $2,000 for my five times odds I've taken and they have to pay off the $400 flat bet, a total of $5,200. If he had made the point, I would've scaled back to a $250 flat bet and played smart and carefully from there.
He didn't make the point and just in case I made a mistake of some kind, I had $4,400 in my pockets.
8. You have to understand that today everything is different at craps. In the old days, we pool players had many high up in the 5 figure wins when it was $500 limit and single odds. Today that would be utterly impossible. You have to win your money in short bursts, say from 10 minutes to 30 minutes.
9. Don't make bets based on hunches, don't make "sucker bets", like the field or the hard ways and perhaps most importantly, be patient. If the dice aren't passing a little, nothing will make you a winner. One of my greatest strengths is holding down my losses. However, I don't put any kind of "unit" restriction on my wins. For one example, I wandered into the Trop one Thur.,where I discovered that they had a five times odds special on Thursdays. I was on my way home from Reno to South Carolina, driving and I stopped in Vegas to visit a lady I liked. Anyway, I only bought $800 in chips and I won $65,000 in a couple of hours.
I hope these may help you with your dice game.

Hey Grady. Do you remember the one time we bombed the Sands Regency Crap table with the $200 limit. Maybe you weren't there that year. It was around 1990 or 91. I know Mataya and Nickie were in the game. Frisco Dave, me and a few other pool players. I think Danny was in too.

The dice got hot for everyone who rolled. The first player threw like 15 passes, plus many numbers. About a twenty minute roll. Most of us had started out betting like $5 or $10 and taking double odds. By the end of this roll, we were all betting like $50 or a $100 on a number and taking double odds. Next player, another good roll. And so on for about three or four more players. We had all started with peanuts (it was the last day of the tournament and everyone was near broke). But now everyone had thousands in front of them and they had to reload the table with about 50K more.

It was Mataya's turn. It had been over an hour and the dice hadn't gotten around the table. We were all screaming and hollering like crazy. We loaded up and Jimmy throws a come out 7. Bam, we win another grand or so. Everyone whoops. Jimmy throws an 11. Another nice lick, followed by a roar and no one is winning more or yelling louder than Jimmy. They seem reluctant to give him the dice. He growls at them and he takes the dice and throws another 7. The table erupts and Jimmy is spewing profanities of joy. He has them stuck over 10K, from a meager bankroll.

Now they won't give the dice back to Jimmy. They mix them in and the stick man holds them. He says Jimmy is too loud and he can't throw. There is a stalemate. Jimmy is screaming for the dice, and the stickman passes them to the next player. This guy refuses to take the dice. My turn, I pass too. He passes the dice all the way around the table and no one will take them. It's back to Jimmy, but the man will not give in. This lasts for about 5 minutes and finally I break the stalemate.

I gather all my chips (several thousand) and say to all, I'm heading for the cage. The game breaks and everyone follows along. We cash out thirty or forty to the good at the little bust out Sands. I'm pissed, because I think they did something illegal to stop the game. But later over coffee Jimmy explains something to me. He says we got the Sands in a bad spot. They can't win. If the dice cool off, we will all quit anyway. And if they stay hot, we can really hurt them now. A run of numbers can easily cost them tens of thousands more.

They wanted to close the table, and they did.

 

[Grady]

Some memories

Ajrack, you say all true things. I should have mentioned that I, too, have sent money home while I was gambling.
The nice win I had in Reno was unfinished. I don't know how much I might have won if I hadn't had other commitments? I won about $60,000 the first day. The whole thing started after I beat Harry Platis out of $1,800. I sent $1,000 home and only bought eight dollars (that's eight hundred) in chips.
What I did next is also something I've done at times over the years.I put $58,000 in the glove compartment of my rental car and went to a different joint and bought $2,000 in chips. My plan was to only lose the two dimes if I lost and then drive to Sacramento to visit my Dad, who was dying.Anyway, I won another $12,000 and I reluctantly had to leave town.An interesting sideline to this story is that I went home with more than $50,000 in cash in my cue case, which is something I sure wouldn't do today. I mean, it was right in the overhead compartment. Right after this is when I lost $40,000 playing Alex. I didn't wind down from playing craps and my play was just subpar. I had chances to win but I lost a race to 6 at One Pocket for $25,000 and then a game of 14.1 for $15,000. Oh well!!!
You craps enthusiasts who read my suggestions for winning at craps will remember what I said about not playing in bust-out joints like the Sands Regency? Jay's story about what happened at the Sands is typical of the type of CS move that kind of place will use to break up a hand. And no, Jay, I wasn't there. Over the years, many times I've played at other places when a tournament was going on because of the bite and/or because the host facility wasn't player friendly.
By the way, before someone asks, if you're playing in a classy place, they'll help you with how to handle your big money after you've won. I don't really want to put that kind of info on the internet.

 

[freddy the beard]

The Stardust in 72

Hey Grady. Do you remember the one time we bombed the Sands Regency Crap table with the $200 limit. Maybe you weren't there that year. It was around 1990 or 91. I know Mataya and Nickie were in the game. Frisco Dave, me and a few other pool players. I think Danny was in too.

The dice got hot for everyone who rolled. The first player threw like 15 passes, plus many numbers. About a twenty minute roll. Most of us had started out betting like $5 or $10 and taking double odds. By the end of this roll, we were all betting like $50 or a $100 on a number and taking double odds. Next player, another good roll. And so on for about three or four more players. We had all started with peanuts (it was the last day of the tournament and everyone was near broke). But now everyone had thousands in front of them and they had to reload the table with about 50K more.

It was Mataya's turn. It had been over an hour and the dice hadn't gotten around the table. We were all screaming and hollering like crazy. We loaded up and Jimmy throws a come out 7. Bam, we win another grand or so. Everyone whoops. Jimmy throws an 11. Another nice lick, followed by a roar and no one is winning more or yelling louder than Jimmy. They seem reluctant to give him the dice. He growls at them and he takes the dice and throws another 7. The table erupts and Jimmy is spewing profanities of joy. He has them stuck over 10K, from a meager bankroll.

Now they won't give the dice back to Jimmy. They mix them in and the stick man holds them. He says Jimmy is too loud and he can't throw. There is a stalemate. Jimmy is screaming for the dice, and the stickman passes them to the next player. This guy refuses to take the dice. My turn, I pass too. He passes the dice all the way around the table and no one will take them. It's back to Jimmy, but the man will not give in. This lasts for about 5 minutes and finally I break the stalemate.

I gather all my chips (several thousand) and say to all, I'm heading for the cage. The game breaks and everyone follows along. We cash out thirty or forty to the good at the little bust out Sands. I'm pissed, because I think they did something illegal to stop the game. But later over coffee Jimmy explains something to me. He says we got the Sands in a bad spot. They can't win. If the dice cool off, we will all quit anyway. And if they stay hot, we can really hurt them now. A run of numbers can easily cost them tens of thousands more.

They wanted to close the table, and they did.

At the Stardust Casino tourney in 72, Cole Dickson was about 19 or 20 and he had a bankroll of about 3500 which he took to the crap table. They never checked any ID and he proceeded to blow the whole store. He went and borrowed either a 100 or 200 from somebody and went back to the crap table and tried to play again to get even. Now that he is a "short-horn" with a small bankroll they asked him for ID and wouldnt let him play anymore. He howled and screamed but it didnt do any good, now that he was broke he became too young to play. At the same time there was a high-rolling sucker that wandered through the Casino with a beany with a propeller on top and a loud whistle around his neck. He also sported a 14 or 15 16 yr old blonde on his arm as he cavorted through the Casino. Whenever he felt like it he would periodically take the whistle and blow it as loud as he could. No security even glanced at him.

the Beard

 

[wahcheck]

that's why they call them.....

At the Stardust Casino tourney in 72, Cole Dickson was about 19 or 20 and he had a bankroll of about 3500 which he took to the crap table. They never checked any ID and he proceeded to blow the whole store. He went and borrowed either a 100 or 200 from somebody and went back to the crap table and tried to play again to get even. Now that he is a "short-horn" with a small bankroll they asked him for ID and wouldnt let him play anymore. He howled and screamed but it didnt do any good, now that he was broke he became too young to play. At the same time there was a high-rolling sucker that wandered through the Casino with a beany with a propeller on top and a loud whistle around his neck. He also sported a 14 or 15 16 yr old blonde on his arm as he cavorted through the Casino. Whenever he felt like it he would periodically take the whistle and blow it as loud as he could. No security even glanced at him.

the Beard

.....HOUSE RULES.....you got money, you're welcome to stay until we get it all...you got no money, you're outta here.......

 

[jcrack_corn]

I hope this thread is a joke.

If not, just another run of examples of the "gamblers fallacy." And the very odd, statistically untrue beliefs that gamblers have.

Whats with all the conspiracy theory secrecy too Grady.....geez. "I cant post that info on the internet...." yeah, only 500,000 people have posted it before you.

Anyone who thinks they can consistenlty win at craps:
1.) Is a liar, who is saying such things to make them feel better and forget about all the losses through the years.
2.) Doesnt play often, has had a couple of big scores and thinks they now have pearls and could do it for a living.
3.) Will be broke if they continue to play.

Anyone who thinks they can win at blackjack:
1.) May be right, but only at high limit 1 or 2 deck games.
2.) THERE IS NO CHANCE OF WINNING IN TODAYS 8 deck shoes....a perfect count gives you an edge that is so worthless that only a lucky score would allow yout to make significant money.

Finally, this is all just silly.....in a short 10 years, there has been over 100 BILLION dollars of real-estate development in Lost Vegas. And there's still people out there that think they have an edge....(ohh, stuffing your pockets, mailing money to yourself, etc, is a sure sign that your gambling is not in your control, PERIOD.).

 

[Grady]

I can prove it

I can take you where I play in Reno and Vegas and show you on their computers that I am legitimately ahead over a period of many years. I mean, if I were a casino, I wouldn't even let guys like me play. I don't book big losers anymore but I do book big winners.
By the way, if you're a moneyed individual, why don't we set up a private game and you can book the action of me and some of my friends?
Every post I do in this hallowed setting about gambling of any sort, I can prove or I wouldn't say it.

 

[jcrack_corn]

First, I would NEVER even think to question any of your pool gambling, that will speak for itself for all of time.

And I'm not doubting your winnings in the casino, What i'm saying is that I'm dumbfounded that you BELIEVE in yourself with regards to beating the casino. It is confounding that such an accomplished gambler would truly beleive in their system. Humans are way to short lived to get good statistical distribution on casino games, you may be in a statistical RUN of wins (lets for arguments sake say that you've won the last 1000 hands of craps you have played). Well, each table at each casion may deal 1000 craps hands in single day, even if a casino only deals 1 million hands in the life of the casino (obviously they will deal many more), a single person can only play a FEW THOUSAND hands in their life. Its not JUST that they have a 1.5% advantage (or whatever/odds, etc). Its that they can actually experience that advantage because of the sheer number of hands. You probably have won 10's of thousands, and you MAY continue to, but the odds are NOT (and never were) in your favor. Because of our short life spans and limited #of hands you could easily NEVER win another hand of craps again. It would seem "impossible" to the lay-man, but is actually expected by a statistician (not because you are "due" to loose, but because outcomes, over infinite time, are always grouped, and very very very rarely actually alternate.....ie, theres really no WLWLWLWLWLWLWLW, when looked at a whole it is WWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLLWLLLWLLLLLLLLLWWWWWWWWWLLLLLWLWLWLWLWLWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWWWWWWWWWLWLWLWLWWWWL

etc....you are in a string of W's.....dont think that it has anything to do with YOU at all, because it doesnt.

I can take you where I play in Reno and Vegas and show you on their computers that I am legitimately ahead over a period of many years. I mean, if I were a casino, I wouldn't even let guys like me play. I don't book big losers anymore but I do book big winners.
By the way, if you're a moneyed individual, why don't we set up a private game and you can book the action of me and some of my friends?
Every post I do in this hallowed setting about gambling of any sort, I can prove or I wouldn't say it.

 

[UPlayLucky]

I'll have to agree with the statement above, which is basically stating "the law of large numbers". If you flip a coin ten times you can have an outcome of 10 heads. Do this millions of times, the outcome will produce a result very near 50%. Vegas is in the business of making money, a lot of it. There is not a game in the casino that does not have an edge for the house. Can you win at craps? yes, if you play smart and/or get lucky. Can you consistently win at craps, if you played every day of your life, I would say the anwser is "No". I'll have to go with my stats degree.

 

[Grady]

A fwe more tidbits

Ok, if I averaged it out I probably am about one dollar an hour ahead over the years. There were times, too, when I thought the misery of playing craps outweighed the fun. So I changed my tactics and literally I became a much better player. I remembered EVERY time that I had lost back everything I was ahead after a big win. I paid my dues, too, like the well documented time in Atlantic City when I won $65,000 in twenty minutes. I gave "Cornbread" $5,000 in five hundred dollar chips and had him give one each to the nearest 20 pool players. Nobody ever did that for me but I don't care. I'm glad that I could help a little.
I get a lot better action at the crap table than I do in the pool room, too. When I do book a nice winner I get thanked for my action and paid in cash and always get RFB (room,food and beverage).
If you think about the sheer odds a guy like me gets laid, believe me, they have the worst of it.

 

[UPlayLucky]

Grady, if you are close to 50% and get huge comps from the casino, keep playing. At least, we the AZers can hear another story about you taking it to the Casinos. Keep writing, I enjoy reading your treads.

 

[BillPorter]

There's no use in saying it....

First, I would NEVER even think to question any of your pool gambling, that will speak for itself for all of time.

And I'm not doubting your winnings in the casino, What i'm saying is that I'm dumbfounded that you BELIEVE in yourself with regards to beating the casino. It is confounding that such an accomplished gambler would truly beleive in their system. Humans are way to short lived to get good statistical distribution on casino games, you may be in a statistical RUN of wins (lets for arguments sake say that you've won the last 1000 hands of craps you have played). Well, each table at each casion may deal 1000 craps hands in single day, even if a casino only deals 1 million hands in the life of the casino (obviously they will deal many more), a single person can only play a FEW THOUSAND hands in their life. Its not JUST that they have a 1.5% advantage (or whatever/odds, etc). Its that they can actually experience that advantage because of the sheer number of hands. You probably have won 10's of thousands, and you MAY continue to, but the odds are NOT (and never were) in your favor. Because of our short life spans and limited #of hands you could easily NEVER win another hand of craps again. It would seem "impossible" to the lay-man, but is actually expected by a statistician (not because you are "due" to loose, but because outcomes, over infinite time, are always grouped, and very very very rarely actually alternate.....ie, theres really no WLWLWLWLWLWLWLW, when looked at a whole it is WWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWLLLWLLLWLLLLLLLLLWWWWWWWWWLLLLLWLWLWLWLWLWWWWWWWWWLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLWWWWWWWWWLWLWLWLWWWWL

etc....you are in a string of W's.....dont think that it has anything to do with YOU at all, because it doesnt.

I wondered when someone would post some rational statements about gambling and probability and congratulate you on your clear and correct comments. However, IMHO, trying to explain various gambling falacies to people who believe in them is probably futile. I have long since ceased to be surprised when confronted with the blatantly irrational gambling beliefs that are held by otherwise pretty intelligent people.

 

[blud]

true

I can take you where I play in Reno and Vegas and show you on their computers that I am legitimately ahead over a period of many years. I mean, if I were a casino, I wouldn't even let guys like me play. I don't book big losers anymore but I do book big winners.
By the way, if you're a moneyed individual, why don't we set up a private game and you can book the action of me and some of my friends?
Every post I do in this hallowed setting about gambling of any sort, I can prove or I wouldn't say it.

I was rooming with Grady @ the Sands, when he made a nice score in Reno. He moved out to the Hilton, with 30 big ones in his pocket. Grady tells it like it is.
blud

 

[wahcheck]

Gambling

I wondered when someone would post some rational statements about gambling and probability and congratulate you on your clear and correct comments. However, IMHO, trying to explain various gambling falacies to people who believe in them is probably futile. I have long since ceased to be surprised when confronted with the blatantly irrational gambling beliefs that are held by otherwise pretty intelligent people.

Being pretty much a lifelong gambler, I can say that from my experience, gambling is pretty much a losing proposition....I am speaking of the long run, or the big picture....Nothing really impresses me anymore, when somebody tells me of a big score....$40K, $50K, or even $1,000,000.... It doesn't mean much if you continue to gamble.....winnings are just temporary.....Ironically, a lot of gamblers think of it the other way...."Losing is just temporary"....my remaining $.02 on the subject....

 

[watchez]

Don't play craps, play Don't Pass. Grady says not to, I say do it & do it often. Why do you think on a craps table the pass line is so huge & the don't pass line is so small? Why do you think that casinos invented no crap craps with no don't pass line? Why is the don't pass line a bet you can pull back but the pass line is not? Because on the don't pass line you have the same advantage as the house. To keep it simple, let's say you are betting $100 on the don't pass. As long as the shooter doesn't throw a 7 or 11, then you are betting $100 that they will throw a 7 before they throw the point. What could be better than that? It is slow and boring but YOU WIN. You win whether it is day time or night time. Whether the table is hollering or quiet. Last year at Caesars I closed down 3 craps tables by betting the don't. If you are superstitious like Grady then this always works. If the shooter is taking a long time to throw a 7, just ask the stick man if he is a baseball fan. Then ask him what number Mickey Mantel was. SEVEN. In the next 2-3 throws, it will always come. Just don't abuse this superstition, use only when needed.

If the shooter has a point of 6 or 8, take your don't pass line bet down & bet the don't come. Get a different number with a higher chance to win.

Point Dink. Never heard of it. That is when the shooter throws a point and the very next throw is a 7. Happens ALL the time. Yell it out when it happens. Nothing sweeter when betting the don't when you don't have to sweat and just get paid.

Bet the don't, bet with the house, watch everyone go busted and go home WINNER. If you get your bankroll up, then bet the don't pass & then the don't come. That will increase your excitement.

 

[Devil]

Gamble

Every gambler I have ever met has a system, and wants to borrow a ten spot for a meal the very next day.

 

[BillPorter]

Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this...

Don't play craps, play Don't Pass. Grady says not to, I say do it & do it often. Why do you think on a craps table the pass line is so huge & the don't pass line is so small? Why do you think that casinos invented no crap craps with no don't pass line? Why is the don't pass line a bet you can pull back but the pass line is not? Because on the don't pass line you have the same advantage as the house. To keep it simple, let's say you are betting $100 on the don't pass. As long as the shooter doesn't throw a 7 or 11, then you are betting $100 that they will throw a 7 before they throw the point. What could be better than that? It is slow and boring but YOU WIN. You win whether it is day time or night time. Whether the table is hollering or quiet. Last year at Caesars I closed down 3 craps tables by betting the don't. If you are superstitious like Grady then this always works. If the shooter is taking a long time to throw a 7, just ask the stick man if he is a baseball fan. Then ask him what number Mickey Mantel was. SEVEN. In the next 2-3 throws, it will always come. Just don't abuse this superstition, use only when needed.

If the shooter has a point of 6 or 8, take your don't pass line bet down & bet the don't come. Get a different number with a higher chance to win.

Point Dink. Never heard of it. That is when the shooter throws a point and the very next throw is a 7. Happens ALL the time. Yell it out when it happens. Nothing sweeter when betting the don't when you don't have to sweat and just get paid.

Bet the don't, bet with the house, watch everyone go busted and go home WINNER. If you get your bankroll up, then bet the don't pass & then the don't come. That will increase your excitement.

The house's edge on a Pass Line bet is 1.414%. The house's edge on a Don't Pass bet is 1.402%. Anyone with even one college course in statistics/probability can confirm this with simple calculations. There is no mystery here and no system will beat the house over the long run. For a nice summary of craps odds click on this link: http://homepage.ntlworld.com/dice-play/CrapsOdds.htm

 

[chefjeff]

The confusion is coming from two things here:

1. Money management techniques as affecting odds
2. Personal anecdotes substitued for overall odds

Neither of these matters to the dice. They don't know and they have no memory. The odds of a game are the odds of the game (assuming consistent play).

That said, I, too, put money in my pocket when I'm counting a beatable game of blackjack and am up. But I do that for ME, not to PRETEND that it will in any shape, matter, or form change the odds of the game. Here's how that works for me:

I figure how many hours of bj I'll be playing...let's say one weekend in Vegas at 8 hours per day is 16-20 hours depending on when I arrive. At 60 hands per hour, that's 1,000-1,200 hands over the weekend. At that pace, my MAXIMUM bet is 1/200 of my bankroll. Yes, 1/200...ONLY 1/200. So, if I come with $1,000, my MAXIMUM bet is only $5. The MAX. That means I'll only go broke once in every ten weekends ON AVERAGE. Yet, I've gone broke this way twice in ten tries. Unlucky? NO!...well within the range of the odds. Being broke in Vegas sucks.

I (and my sister who has similar results) have detailed records of our bj play over the years. I played within my bankroll (see above) and didn't drink and did simple enough counts that my mistakes were less than one per hour. When I left a casino, I wrote down the amount of time played, the win/loss. At 200 hours (not counting bj tournaments here, as that strategy is so different, ala Jeopardy) I was up just about $1,000. That's a whopping $5 per hour. I think it's down to $4 an hour now, but I don't play anymore and haven't looked at my records for some years now.

And even that isn't the whole story. It's only a start to the long term, but still closely reflects the long term odds. Since the bj games are shot to hell by multiple decks and--horror!--continuous shuffling machines, I refuse to play anymore as my odds are now are less than even. Even if I pocket money, the odds suck. Even if I count perfectly, the odds suck. Even if I play at night, the odds suck (in fact, with losing odds, the night games, being faster, will rob me quicker), even if I play with a "good" table or "good" dealer (lol) my odds suck.

Such big money stories are great and fun and no doubt true, but there's some people here who might believe that these stories reflect the true odds and will be hurt by following this crappy "advice." The odds are, anyway.

Jeff Livingston

 

[freddy the beard]

Are you kidding?

A slight rebuttal:

Last year at Caesars I closed down 3 craps tables by betting the don't.

Where is the statue they built of you? If you did that betting "don't", I'm sure there is one somewhere. the Beard.

If you are superstitious like Grady then this always works. If the shooter is taking a long time to throw a 7, just ask the stick man if he is a baseball fan. Then ask him what number Mickey Mantel (his name was Mickey Mantle, the Beard) was. SEVEN. In the next 2-3 throws, it will always come. Just don't abuse this superstition, use only when needed.

Is there some exclusive Gambling club where I could join and pay a big membership fee so I could get more of the sage advice like the above?the Beard

If the shooter has a point of 6 or 8, take your don't pass line bet down & bet the don't come. Get a different number with a higher chance to win.

Whenever a don't better takes down his 6 or 8 don't pass bet if you look up at the dealers you can see them giggling. With the plus 16% edge you have on the bet, you could build your own Casino in a month if they kept giving it to you.
Aside from all my knocking, I am considering telling my craps tale where I turned $20 into 15000 at the 1972 Stardust tourney.the Beard

 

[Jeff]

You want to know the best way to win at gambling?

Write a book, "How to win at Gambling", and hope someone buys it.

Or you can send $10.00 to me at

imasucker@ga.com

and I will give you the discounted version.

 

[watchez]

A slight rebuttal:

So Freddy, you took Grady's comments about only playing craps @night, etc. as not being ridiculious but my comments you decided to rebute? You know what the problem is.....mine was written as a joke when I was drunk, Grady's were written as serious when he was sober. Gee though, thanks for your comments.