Old 8 ball rules

[HNTFSH]

The problem I see with those call shot games being played in bars is that it causes arguments which leads to fights. If I touch a rail shooting one of my balls in the call shot group says "that was a bank shot because it touched a rail" and that I didn't call a bank shot so "it has to go clean". But then 2 minutes later when I am going to shoot the 8 in their rules say I have to bank the 8 and I say "I did bank it, it touched the rail on the way in" then according to them its not a bank anymore. If a ball touching a rail qualifies as a bank shot it when I do not call it must also be a bank shot when I call it. They cant move the finish only when it suits them.

That's not a rule problem it's an azzhole problem. IF i was in a bar on a little table and playing unknowns I would be happy to play house (or their) rules. Prefer complete slop be loss of shot but other than that wouldn't care. Playing 9 footers in pool rooms with people I don't know, I'll ask their rules...just to be clear and we agree.

I do like calling shots and I do like calling rails in 8 ball. Same with a kiss off another ball versus clean. To me that means "calling the shot you intend to shoot" instead of just calling the pocket. Have had a few people over that agree the rules and when they rattle a ball in the corner pocket and it finally falls...I'll say "did you call that 5 rails"?

I agree with you bar pool is a different game. There's a lot about it that makes it less fun for me and you can never trust there's a standard and many people spend hours there ingesting depressants.

 

[boogieman]

8 ball rules in Southern Iowa, which are bar rules because that's all that existed here:

Nothing spotted as tables were coin op. 8 ball on the break was an instant win, unless you scratched too and it was an instant loss.

BIH in kitchen after opponent scratches. If your balls (or the 8) are all in the kitchen, tough luck, you have to bank at them. If your opponent misses or fouls... tough luck, play the CB where it lies.

Everyone was expected to make an honest effort to shoot or hit a ball, no safety play was allowed (and most never knew it existed). If you didn't try to hit a shot in, no matter how hard of a shot, it was dirty pool. If you played an obvious safety, it was dirty pool. Ribbing, arguments or fights ensued depending on if you knew the person and how drunk everyone was. I was a kid in the 80s and never saw a fight, but did hear people screaming at the top of their lungs and walking out on a game.

If you scratched while shooting the 8, you lost. If you just missed the 8, no biggie, fouls other than scratch really didn't exist. Your opponent would just shoot where it lies. Basically cowboy pool, you had to shoot and no funny business or you were a dirty player. A dirty player didn't get games after they displayed a pattern of dirty play. No one wanted to be known as a dirty player and it was a huge insult, questioning their honor. This resulted in most people playing as honorably as possible, but sometimes people would try to fake a good attempt and miss. It sounds barbaric, but it was actually fun, just another mental aspect to the game and an opportunity for sharking. Sharking was always ok as long as you didn't take it too far. Dropping a cue on the floor was too far, but asking them what they were shooting at wasn't.

The game was mainly call pocket unless you are banking or kicking, then you say 1 rail, 2 rail etc. You could agree to just play call pocket but most preferred calling rails even if only playing call pocket. Most people used to call caroms off other balls or combos. Matches between friends or people you respected were usually just on the honor system unless it was some kind of touchy shot, then you called what you were doing, but straight in shots or simple one rail banks you didn't call.

This was basically the formal rules of the game around here. If you played someone new of from a town over you both used the same rules. I was born in 80, but the bar players here still play the same way. The rules aren't really formalized, but spread through word of mouth and how your parents/pool mentor taught you to play.

Now me, I prefer "league rules" or in other words real rules like BCA with no funny business. Bar pool is fun at times, especially if you've all been having a few drinks. Less thinking when BIH isn't a thing and more aggressive shots. You can still call someone out on dirty pool and most learn to try all offense when reminded that dirty pool isn't allowed. 2 way shots become very important but an honest effort is expected.

 

[Paul Schofield]

The reason i never got into a fight was i had 4 rules i lived by.

1. Never argue over whose quarter is up. I always used a half dollar to mark my turn.
2. Never argue over rules. I usually managed to turn their rules to my advantage.
3. Never ask to gamble . i always turned them down saying that i just liked playimg and let them talk me into gamblimg and set the wager.
4. Never raise the stakes . well i did break this rule once in a while in certain situations which i will explain below.

I had 2 rules (in the 70s):

1. Never ever ever ever play a game of eight-ball.
2. Always bet enough to eliminate any possibility of playing an eight-ball player.

 

[maha]

if they bet less than ten bucks a game they couldnt make more than two in a row so you won almost every game. so let them do what they want and be happy and you be happy they are there.

 

[Hoser]

House rules prevail. always ask first,

 

[DynoDan]

When I first started hanging around in poolhalls (late 50s/before coin-op), 8 ball was only played by kids/novices (no math required, and the game was simple/easy to understand). Nothing was ever called (slop ruled), and the only foul (aside from scratches) was an obvious ‘bad hit’. Double CB hits, scoop-jump lofting, etc. were all beside the point, since just pocketing your OB on a 9 foot table was such a rare victory (though it often made a couple trips round the table first)!

 

[DynoDan]

When I first started hanging around in poolhalls (late 50s/before coin-op), 8 ball was only played by kids/novices (no math required, and the game was simple/easy to understand). Nothing was ever called (slop ruled), and the only foul (aside from scratches) was an obvious ‘bad hit’. Double CB hits, scoop-jump lofting, etc. were all beside the point, since just pocketing your OB on a 9 foot table was such a rare victory (though it often made a couple trips round the table first)!

Also, I don’t recall an 8-ball pocketed out-of-sequence was ever an automatic loss, before the coin-op barbox made it impossible to retrieve/spot (?).
Kind of makes you wonder if the ‘automatic win’ rule (8-ball on the break) was thought up by tavern/amusement proprietors, since it shortens games/increases revenue (though it obviously has to be one-or-the-other, since the game is over regardless). It certainly discourages the ‘soft’ opening break strategy that drags things out (greed overpowers caution).

 

[alstl]

I always figured games like last pocket 8 ball or the one described by the op were invented by someone who had the strategy figured out and therefore had an advantage over someone who hadn't played under those rules. A way to trap a guy desperate for action.

 

[Swighey]

By far the most universal Eight Ball rule that was changed for some unknown reason was that making the eight ball on the break wins the game. No more now, since some genius decided it was too easy. Compare that with 9-Ball where making the nine on the break still is a win. A helluva lot easier and happens far more often than the eight ball on the break. Just saying.

As for the myriad of other Eight Ball rules that vary from league to league and geographical areas, I guess I've played with a couple of dozen different sets of rules depending on where I was, and that's all on bar tables, be it 7' or 8' (the Northwest). I liked to watch a few games first and familiarize myself with the local rules before getting on the table. That's how I rolled.

They are two different games. In 9-Ball the 9 is the "money ball" and can be pocketed legally at anytime as long as the lowest numbered ball is struck first. This can happen on any shot, including the break.

In 8-Ball the object is to pocket the money ball after pocketing a set (either solids or stripes). Pocketing the 8 before doing this is loss of game. The rule is different on the break as a concession to the breaker because of the lack of control over the 8 ball on the break. Making it 8 on the break wins is far too much of a concession and against the object of the game. The option of spotting the black or re-racking is a good rule.

The 8 wins or loses probably comes from the problem with coin-ops. I've played in bars where the rule is 8 on the break is a win and others where it's a loss. By far the best though is that the breaker retains the table, and the other player has the option to pay again. I've even played in bars where the bar staff unlock the mechanism and make this game free. This adds only a small amount of time for the other players on the list who are waiting, and doesn't punish the player who has patiently waited their turn and paid not to get a game.

 

[WoodyJ]

I liked to just wade in amongst them! As you know, it wasn't that uncommon for some creative rules making to take place when you are a stranger from afar anyway. When that happens the locals are usually snickering a bit about how dumb the stranger is. They usually laugh out load when I catch my opponent with his own made up rule later in the match up though! ...

Hu

... The reason i never got into a fight was i had 4 rules i lived by.

1. Never argue over whose quarter is up. I always used a half dollar to mark my turn.
2. Never argue over rules. I usually managed to turn their rules to my advantage.
3. Never ask to gamble . i always turned them down saying that i just liked playimg and let them talk me into gamblimg and set the wager.
4. Never raise the stakes . well i did break this rule once in a while in certain situations which i will explain below.

Those 4 rules kept me out of a lot of trouble with sore losers when i reminded them i didnt want to gamble in the first place. It just was not worth the chance of being hurt....hurting some one and getting sued ...or put in jail and have a criminal record over a 5 or 10 dollar pool game.

The craziest rule i ever encountered was whwn my opponent scratched and i had the 8 in the kitchen. I valled a corner pocket and kicked at the 8 and missed connectimg with the 8 by a couple of inches. My opponent jumps up and said you lost . i said...what ?? He said you missed the 8...you gotta hit it or its a loss. My first jmclimation was to go ballistic on his azz but i managed to keep cool and stick to rule number 2.

...

Had a similar thing happen to me when I moved into town a couple of decades go.

Went into the local bar and put my quarter up and took over the challenge table. Had to kick at an 8-ball in the kitchen, missed it and the guy said I lost because I missed the 8-ball. Lots of snickers.

He held the table until it was my turn again. He broke dry and left the 8-ball on a rail with one solid touching it and another solid a half an inch away.

I shot in a solid and then nudged another solid next to the 8-ball. Everyone is asking WTF is going on? The guy ran a few balls and I nudged another solid up against the 8-ball so it was completely surrounded.

He then ran off the rest of his balls and I then reminded him of the rule that he used to take the table away from me. He said that was bullshit, not a rule there and was just some stupid Canadian rule.

I said you took the table away from me using that rule and I'm damn well taking it back from you with that rule. The only way you're not going to loose this game is to do a jump shot and hit the 8-ball first and not go off the table.

He tried the jump shot (by scooping the cue from the bottom hemisphere) and it flew way off the table. I said screw your bullshit rule, you just fouled on the 8-ball and that's definitely loss of game. Everyone laughed.

 

[Sneeky Pete]

When was ball in hand rule first used in a pool game? can anyone help me with that one?>

 

[Bob Jewett]

When was ball in hand rule first used in a pool game? can anyone help me with that one?>

I assume you mean ball in hand anywhere, since scratches have always involved ball in hand but behind the line.

I think that two shot roll out nine ball -- developed in the 50s or 60s ? -- was the first game with BIH anywhere.

 

[straightline]

Seems ball in hand is a concession to 'the action must keep moving'. I'd like to see BIH in one pocket. I think Ronnie Allen started playing that way.

 

[maha]

not many here are winning gamblers. winning gamblers are out to win the money not the argument or the present game.

ive played all over but never played in a bar where i wasnt going to win the money. and never argued with anyone over anything.

in the pool room a different story. as its a different environment.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I just started playing pool and I play with some older guys who sort of remember the rules from the 60s and 70s. Playing 8 ball (and only the devil would use BIH anywhere). Different guys have different memories and I'm trying to make peace with their various rules and memories.

If anyone remembers those days...when 8-ball fouls gave you ball in hand behind the headstring...

1. If you scratched the cue ball, and one of your balls was sunk, did the ball come up and get spotted?

2. If you scratched the cue ball, and one of your balls was not sunk, did one of yours come up anyway?

3. If the answer to 2 is yes, and you had no balls already sunk, did you "owe a ball" to come up later?

Thanks

No but you had to call the exact shot rather than just the pocket. And not hitting a rail wasn’t a foul. But you couldn’t do that intentionally. You had to call something or possibly have some fun out behind the bar after for cheating. My dad mentioned the ball being spotted if you scratched so maybe that was the rule in 60’s 70’s. That the ball you made would be spotted with a scratch. Never heard the owe a ball rule. I started in the 80’s.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

8 ball rules in Southern Iowa, which are bar rules because that's all that existed here:

Nothing spotted as tables were coin op. 8 ball on the break was an instant win, unless you scratched too and it was an instant loss.

BIH in kitchen after opponent scratches. If your balls (or the 8) are all in the kitchen, tough luck, you have to bank at them. If your opponent misses or fouls... tough luck, play the CB where it lies.

Everyone was expected to make an honest effort to shoot or hit a ball, no safety play was allowed (and most never knew it existed). If you didn't try to hit a shot in, no matter how hard of a shot, it was dirty pool. If you played an obvious safety, it was dirty pool. Ribbing, arguments or fights ensued depending on if you knew the person and how drunk everyone was. I was a kid in the 80s and never saw a fight, but did hear people screaming at the top of their lungs and walking out on a game.

If you scratched while shooting the 8, you lost. If you just missed the 8, no biggie, fouls other than scratch really didn't exist. Your opponent would just shoot where it lies. Basically cowboy pool, you had to shoot and no funny business or you were a dirty player. A dirty player didn't get games after they displayed a pattern of dirty play. No one wanted to be known as a dirty player and it was a huge insult, questioning their honor. This resulted in most people playing as honorably as possible, but sometimes people would try to fake a good attempt and miss. It sounds barbaric, but it was actually fun, just another mental aspect to the game and an opportunity for sharking. Sharking was always ok as long as you didn't take it too far. Dropping a cue on the floor was too far, but asking them what they were shooting at wasn't.

The game was mainly call pocket unless you are banking or kicking, then you say 1 rail, 2 rail etc. You could agree to just play call pocket but most preferred calling rails even if only playing call pocket. Most people used to call caroms off other balls or combos. Matches between friends or people you respected were usually just on the honor system unless it was some kind of touchy shot, then you called what you were doing, but straight in shots or simple one rail banks you didn't call.

This was basically the formal rules of the game around here. If you played someone new of from a town over you both used the same rules. I was born in 80, but the bar players here still play the same way. The rules aren't really formalized, but spread through word of mouth and how your parents/pool mentor taught you to play.

Now me, I prefer "league rules" or in other words real rules like BCA with no funny business. Bar pool is fun at times, especially if you've all been having a few drinks. Less thinking when BIH isn't a thing and more aggressive shots. You can still call someone out on dirty pool and most learn to try all offense when reminded that dirty pool isn't allowed. 2 way shots become very important but an honest effort is expected.

What about BCA rules with BIH anywhere when breaker scratches? That’s how they attempt to play by me as they amended the BCA rules here. I think its a ridiculous rule. The ERO % is higher that way for sure.

I like ACS. It’s just like BCA but according to the rule book if you accidentally touch a ball it’s a foul. I only know that because I had a big game lined up and he wanted to play ACS so I read the rule book because I had never had anyone ask me to play ACS before.

 

[tomatoshooter]

What about BCA rules with BIH anywhere when breaker scratches? That’s how they attempt to play by me as they amended the BCA rules here. I think its a ridiculous rule. The ERO % is higher that way for sure.

I like ACS. It’s just like BCA but according to the rule book if you accidentally touch a ball it’s a foul. I only know that because I had a big game lined up and he wanted to play ACS so I read the rule book because I had never had anyone ask me to play ACS before.

BCA is behind the head string for a scratch on the break. I'm not sure if they changed the rule or if BIH is just a widespread misunderstanding. I think BIH is too steep of a penalty for a scratch on the break.

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

BCA is behind the head string for a scratch on the break. I'm not sure if they changed the rule or if BIH is just a widespread misunderstanding. I think BIH is too steep of a penalty for a scratch on the break.

In my district the BCA leagues amended the rule to BIH anywhere with scratch on the break supposedly. The older players know the real rules the younger players that play the BCA leagues here don’t. I had no idea about the amendment or the reasoning behind it, and haven’t seen their rule book.
But those are the BCA rules they play by here when there is a non APA 8 ball tournament also.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

I liked to just wade in amongst them! As you know, it wasn't that uncommon for some creative rules making to take place when you are a stranger from afar anyway. When that happens the locals are usually snickering a bit about how dumb the stranger is. They usually laugh out load when I catch my opponent with his own made up rule later in the match up though!

The road has been calling me lately. Not really just the road, old times in general. Fill the truck up with gas, stick a twenty in my pocket leaving the rest of my cash tucked away and on the road for a few days, maybe a few weeks. Once in awhile a few hours! Maybe you ought to come down. We could head to Acadiana, find us a couple of cajun queens of the female variety and party till the sun comes up. Sleep until two or three PM and do it all again! Play enough pool or cards to finance all the trouble we could get into and see if there is anyplace left where english is still the second language. That is the only way for a girl to get a real cajun accent, something that still makes my heart go pitter-patter.

Ah well, I can dream. Nothing is like it used to be, including me!

Hu

Ah Hu, I missed this the first time, but I won't let it get by again. And sorry for the diversion folks, but . . .

Beautiful women were found all across south Louisiana, but what so many people fail to realize is that the beauty which baffled was not just the result of French genetics. For good measure, there was also a large dose of Spanish heritage involved -- think dark hair and darker, flashing, eyes. The area around Lafayette, especially New Iberia (go figure) was especially blessed with these graces. Then, getting over toward New Orleans, one's mind must be turned to the real, true, gumbo -- Creoles. Regardless of their bloodlines, all Louisiana girls were imbued with a certain je ne sais quoi. I also think they must have been first taught to flirt in kindergarten, because they communicated so almost as a second nature. The French may have said it best: "vive le difference".

Sadly, as Hu observed, nothing stays the same. but this is how it was in the 70's. However, the insular quality of our area has been besieged. Television is slowly stifling all patois.

 

[Cornerman]

What about BCA rules with BIH anywhere when breaker scratches? That’s how they attempt to play by me as they amended the BCA rules here. I think its a ridiculous rule. The ERO % is higher that way for sure.

I like ACS. It’s just like BCA but according to the rule book if you accidentally touch a ball it’s a foul. I only know that because I had a big game lined up and he wanted to play ACS so I read the rule book because I had never had anyone ask me to play ACS before.

BCA is behind the head string for a scratch on the break. I'm not sure if they changed the rule or if BIH is just a widespread misunderstanding. I think BIH is too steep of a penalty for a scratch on the break.

You two are talking about two different organizations. Willow is talking about BCA Pool League, which are the CSI rules. Those rules use full table ball in hand after a scratch on the break. This has definitely increased the number of ERO for amateurs.

Tomato, you are talking about BCA rules, which follow WPA rules. 8-ball tournaments sanctioned by those rules should be sticking with in ball in hand behind the head string or scratches on the brake.