Old School Role-Out v/s.Texas Express 9 ball

[curlyscues]

pushing to a jump

I witnessed an interesting strategic use of push-out once when Eugene Browning would push out behind the edge of a ball, always get it back, make the jump shot and run out. He did this several times. Now that was brutal if you were the other guy.

bob hunter would do that same thing and when you gave it back it cost you several racks.
M.C.

 

[pdcue]

I see your point, Dale. You believe if a guy misses position on his next shot, then he must suffer the consequences. My main point is that it's frustrating to see a guy miss a shot, but then get a lucky hook that the opponent is then stuck with-- through no action of his own. In other words, the player who screwed up gets rewarded.

These circumstances might be addressed by allowing a roll-out only at the first shot of each player's turn. If a player shoots, then hooks himself, then he's stuck with it.

Doc

Again, no disrespect, but this is the only counter I ever hear.
The dreaded ' he missed and hooked me' argument
Again, what if that happens in 8 ball, one pocket, bank pool?
Why should 9 ball be a special case?

And, how often does that happen with pro tournament level players.
Pushout was invented by the Janscos for the Johnston City tournys,
suposedly to avoid stalling batles by over cautios players.
I doubt they ever intended to completly change the game of 9 ball.

I still feel the old shoot-to-hit version was a much better way to play.
Again one-foul has plenty of problems. But you can't win based solely
on potting advantage and a lag-to-win strategy.

Dale

 

[jay helfert]

Again, no disrespect, but this is the only counter I ever hear.
The dreaded ' he missed and hooked me' argument
Again, what if that happens in 8 ball, one pocket, bank pool?
Why should 9 ball be a special case?

And, how often does that happen with pro tournament level players.
Pushout was invented by the Janscos for the Johnston City tournys,
suposedly to avoid stalling batles by over cautios players.
I doubt they ever intended to completly change the game of 9 ball.

I still feel the old shoot-to-hit version was a much better way to play.
Again one-foul has plenty of problems. But you can't win based solely
on potting advantage and a lag-to-win strategy.

Dale

I liked "Shoot Too Hit" 9-Ball. You had to make an honest effort to hit the ball, and if you missed your opponent could make you shoot again. The same way a Ring Game is played today. The game was faster and there was not too much "ducking". It put a premium on making balls, and you learned how to be a shotmaker.

One thing I've come to learn over the years, is that the best player will win regardless of the rules. In other words, it doesn't matter what variation of 9-Ball you're playing. The best player will figure out a way to win.

 

[gulfportdoc]

Again, no disrespect, but this is the only counter I ever hear.
The dreaded ' he missed and hooked me' argument
Again, what if that happens in 8 ball, one pocket, bank pool?
Why should 9 ball be a special case?

And, how often does that happen with pro tournament level players.
Pushout was invented by the Janscos for the Johnston City tournys,
suposedly to avoid stalling batles by over cautios players.
I doubt they ever intended to completly change the game of 9 ball.

I still feel the old shoot-to-hit version was a much better way to play.
Again one-foul has plenty of problems. But you can't win based solely
on potting advantage and a lag-to-win strategy.

Dale

Perhaps the "He missed and hooked me" argument is the only counter you wish to acknowledge. There are several more valid detractions, both on this and other threads; not the least of which would be players whose sole mission seems to be using the 3-foul rule to win their games.

As I said before, in both 8-ball and straight pool it is much less likely to be on the short end of a lucky hook, because there are so many other legal balls to shoot at in those games.

Another idiot rule is to be able to win by sinking the 9 ball on the break, which is pure, dumb luck. Why should a 9 ball on the break be just as valid a win as is a hard fought runout? There is no other game where this is featured.

I don't know when the 1 foul, bih became popular. I never saw it much until the 1980's.

I do agree with you and Jay that "shoot-to-hit" is a good way to play, and it's preferable over Texas Express.

Doc

 

[Pushout]

"I hate 9 ball. They've ruined the game. They feel like they need to speed the game up by playing Texas Express rules, when in effect, they've slowed it down. The greatest format to play 9-ball at is push-out, where you can roll out any time you want to. That, believe it or not, speeds the game up, because what it does is it opens up your offense. When you open up your offense, you can try and play with shots that you wouldn't play with under this format, because if you hook yourself, you're dead. If you hook yourself with a push-out format, you can roll out and you still have some form of protection. We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls. If you scratch on the break,you get cue ball in hand behind the headstring. And if the 1 ball went in the hole or was behind the headstring, it went to the spot. See, they took the spot shot completely out of pool. Out of 9-ball. It hasn't been there in 12 to 15 years. These kids never took a spot shot in their lives."

Buddy Hall, in the April, 2007 issue of Billiards Digest.
__________________
From a previous post.

 

[dabarbr]

"I hate 9 ball. They've ruined the game. They feel like they need to speed the game up by playing Texas Express rules, when in effect, they've slowed it down. The greatest format to play 9-ball at is push-out, where you can roll out any time you want to. That, believe it or not, speeds the game up, because what it does is it opens up your offense. When you open up your offense, you can try and play with shots that you wouldn't play with under this format, because if you hook yourself, you're dead. If you hook yourself with a push-out format, you can roll out and you still have some form of protection. We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls. If you scratch on the break,you get cue ball in hand behind the headstring. And if the 1 ball went in the hole or was behind the headstring, it went to the spot. See, they took the spot shot completely out of pool. Out of 9-ball. It hasn't been there in 12 to 15 years. These kids never took a spot shot in their lives."

Buddy Hall, in the April, 2007 issue of Billiards Digest.
__________________
From a previous post.

I totally agree with all your thoughts.

Also playing with shoot to hit rules like Jay suggested is in my oponion almost like push out because many times we act like we are trying to hit but are just repositioning the cue ball for a better shot.

This is done in ring games but never admitted to. Although everyone in the games knows it. But what can they do. Sue you?

 

[pdcue]

I played more than my share of both of these versions of nine ball, and I do not concur with most in this thread. I also do not agree that rollout favored the better player, only the better shotmaker.

Texas Express makes defense, kicking, ducking and two-way shots a big part of the game's skill, and I feel that the strategy is far more interesting in Texas Express than in rollout. The truth is that most bad positions you face in Texas Express arise because of opponent's safety play, two-way shots, or your own errors in position play --- not, as some suggest, fluke safeties of your opponent.

One problem I always had with rollout is that you pay a lesser penalty for position poorly played. To me, nothing is more sacred than position play. Texas Express inflcits maximum penalty on you by making you jump, masse or kick when you hook yourself, and that's as it should be.

I sure hope rollout is gone for good. As both a player and a fan, I think it far inferior to Texas Express nine ball.

Gould it be something about us Straight Pool fiends?

You expressed it(no pun intended)better and more concisely than I have,
but I couldn't agree more - I would even prefer a return to 1 foul
as played prior to the TE version.

Dale

 

[pdcue]

"I hate 9 ball. They've ruined the game. They feel like they need to speed the game up by playing Texas Express rules, when in effect, they've slowed it down. The greatest format to play 9-ball at is push-out, where you can roll out any time you want to. That, believe it or not, speeds the game up, because what it does is it opens up your offense. When you open up your offense, you can try and play with shots that you wouldn't play with under this format, because if you hook yourself, you're dead. If you hook yourself with a push-out format, you can roll out and you still have some form of protection. We used to play on-foul ball in hand, spot all the balls. If you scratch on the break,you get cue ball in hand behind the headstring. And if the 1 ball went in the hole or was behind the headstring, it went to the spot. See, they took the spot shot completely out of pool. Out of 9-ball. It hasn't been there in 12 to 15 years. These kids never took a spot shot in their lives."

Buddy Hall, in the April, 2007 issue of Billiards Digest.
__________________
From a previous post.

If I had won 10 per cent of the money Buddy did playing push out
I might have a certain amount of fondness for it myself. Or not.

Dale