Old School vs. New School Players

crawfish

crawfish

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Allright, I did it. I am sure this has been hounded to death, but I have to hear some opinions. Could the old timers compete with Johnny and Efren? I watched some vintage footage the other day, and I swear they can both get action with me, the way they played. Of course, they were in their sixties, though. I mean, these guys were missing balls consistently. I know that the equipment and the atmosphere has vastly improved, but how do you think Fats, Mosconi, etc. would match up with the likes of Johnny, Efren, Rodney, etc?
 
Vintage footage

If that "vintage footage" is the same stuff I saw on ESPN Classic a while back, it was shameful.
 
Probably the same

whitey2 said:
If that "vintage footage" is the same stuff I saw on ESPN Classic a while back, it was shameful.
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Jimmy Moore? vs. ? I tell ya, I just can't imagine either one of the players winning my local tourney. Now, before everyone jumps on me, I know they were not at their peak, etc.
 
I think Willie Mosconi would only be a top 10 player now; probably would only win 2 or 3 tournaments a year..............but of course he would be 96 years old.:) :) :)

Most of even the "old-timers" here never saw him play in his prime (BEFORE his stroke in 1956). The degenerate pool gamblers that hung out with Willie in KC during the 40's were around for Sigel and Mizerak and Strickland in their prime. They thought Sigel and Mizerak were very close to Irving Crane and Jimmy Caras in skill level; but way below Willie.

They described him as an "offensive machine" who shot at anything from anywhere that had even a remote chance of dropping; and whose position play (the old school "close position") was without compare. It would be great to have seen Efren competing with those old school guys - I bet he would develop into a worthy adversary for Willie.
 
Take it from a genuine expert:
http://propoolvideo.com/old-school/then-and-now.html

It's a tough comparison because the old schoolers had different rules, different equipment, and different games entirely. Can a guy who's used to moving the cue ball a few inches at a time in straight pool move the CB up and down the table in 9 ball as well as someone who's been playing 9 ball at a high level for the last 10 years? I expect mosconi (in his prime) would lose to today's top players in 9 ball and beat them in straight pool. Even in the same game (lassiter vs earl in 9 ball?), it's a bit 'apples and oranges' because the old schooler might not be as versed with jump shots and modern BIH rules, but he might have learned to make shots on a 10-footer and has a very easy time with smaller tables.
 
If you are watching ESPN footage of The Legends Of Pool from the 1980's, these guys were all way over the hill, well into their 60's and older. If you saw all the same guys play 20 years earlier you wouldn't be knocking them. You would be praising them instead.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times. The best players of yesteryear were just as good as the best players of today. Not necessarily better, but just as good. Put today's champions on slow cloth, and they would have fits with men like Cornbread and Jimmy Moore who had such great strokes. Forget about Harold Worst, Lassiter, Don Watson and George Rood. These were guys who never missed position or a makeable ball.

Who can you say that about today? I do believe the best players today (read that mostly filipino and Chinese) play just as good on the equipment we use currently.
 
CreeDo said:
Take it from a genuine expert:
http://propoolvideo.com/old-school/then-and-now.html

It's a tough comparison because the old schoolers had different rules, different equipment, and different games entirely. Can a guy who's used to moving the cue ball a few inches at a time in straight pool move the CB up and down the table in 9 ball as well as someone who's been playing 9 ball at a high level for the last 10 years? I expect mosconi (in his prime) would lose to today's top players in 9 ball and beat them in straight pool. Even in the same game (lassiter vs earl in 9 ball?), it's a bit 'apples and oranges' because the old schooler might not be as versed with jump shots and modern BIH rules, but he might have learned to make shots on a 10-footer and has a very easy time with smaller tables.
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I have to agree with Grady. But notice he said that todays players don't shoot any better or play better position. They shoot jump shots, and kick better. All true.

But in the old days, we were playing "roll out" 9-Ball, so no one needed to kick balls or shoot jump shots. They needed to make long tough cut shots and difficult banks, AND THEY DID! Same applies to defense. In the old days, hooking a player meant little, because he could then "roll out". It was a different game with different stategy.

I still contend the old time greats were the best at the style of 9-Ball they played. They were shotmakers par excellence and bankers supreme. You saw players fire in balls from everywhere, and get out from all kinds of awkward positions. That was Pool, circa 1960's and 70's.
 
crawfish said:
Allright, I did it. I am sure this has been hounded to death, but I have to hear some opinions. Could the old timers compete with Johnny and Efren? I watched some vintage footage the other day, and I swear they can both get action with me, the way they played. Of course, they were in their sixties, though. I mean, these guys were missing balls consistently. I know that the equipment and the atmosphere has vastly improved, but how do you think Fats, Mosconi, etc. would match up with the likes of Johnny, Efren, Rodney, etc?
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What's funny is I consider Efren and Johnny part of the "old school".

New school to me is SVB, Ching-Shun Yang, Alex P., Corey Deuel, etc.. Efren and Johnny have established themselves as HOFers, and seeing as I've been watching them since I started playing, they're the "old school" to me.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
What's funny is I consider Efren and Johnny part of the "old school".

New school to me is SVB, Ching-Shun Yang, Alex P., Corey Deuel, etc.. Efren and Johnny have established themselves as HOFers, and seeing as I've been watching them since I started playing, they're the "old school" to me.
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Did anyone here see Jimmy Reid in his time? I heard he was nearly invincible in his prime, no matter what the game was.
 
A few words

I have always believed that if you had cue skills, given a respectable amount of time to adapt and learn that you could play any pool game from any era with some success. "Shootout" was how 9 ball was played until the Jansco brothers brought one foul to Johnston City. About a decade after Buddy beat Efren a 10 ahead set in Houston, Buddy still offered to play him even but he wanted to play the old shootout rules.
"Wimpy's" friends would bet you even money that he was out before he broke the balls. I think the best any modern player has ever done is about 40%.
Still, the modern guys are better because of: a. Superior equipment b.Knowledge has been handed down from generation to generation until the defensive part of the game is hugely superior to the old days. The rack is better, offensively and defensively.c. There are so many player friendly rooms with great equipment. d. The DCC, which dwarfs Johnston City.
I'm not going to say anything about Willie because I didn't like him. If everything didn't go his way, well, he'd throw quite a tantrum. I'm through here and please don't attack me, saying I don't like Efren because that's just not true.
 
i think its hard to compair them because like tennis and other sports the equipment has changed over time(cloth and balls, more than cues and cushions), but the guys that played good 70 years ago would be good players on the current equipment we have now, would they be better than the current champions?, who knows? we will never know. The people blessed with talent can play on great on any equipment, but its hard to say who would be best but the guys that were champions before would be champions now.

The thing that impresses me is the champions that stay on top of their game for years-the guys that play great for a year and fade are not the class of player as the guys like Efren who has been a steady player, Howard Vikory has awalys been very consistant for years too-never #1 but right up there. So compairing the players of the past to the guys now, its also important to consider how long they were playing strong-not just there best year.
 
Fatboy said:
i think its hard to compair them because like tennis and other sports the equipment has changed over time(cloth and balls, more than cues and cushions), but the guys that played good 70 years ago would be good players on the current equipment we have now, would they be better than the current champions?, who knows? we will never know. The people blessed with talent can play on great on any equipment, but its hard to say who would be best but the guys that were champions before would be champions now.

The thing that impresses me is the champions that stay on top of their game for years-the guys that play great for a year and fade are not the class of player as the guys like Efren who has been a steady player, Howard Vikory has awalys been very consistant for years too-never #1 but right up there. So compairing the players of the past to the guys now, its also important to consider how long they were playing strong-not just there best year.
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Just like any other sport...players will continue to evolve and become better and better. I remember watching Michael Jordan playing 15 years ago. Back then he was God on the court. But by today's standards he would have to compete with guys like Kobe and Iverson. He wouldn't stand a chance. Do you think Babe Ruth could hit Randy Johnson? Put Alex Rodriguez in the 60's and he'd be hitting 100 home runs a season and batting .500.

Why is pool any different? Just like in baseball or basketball, the players become smarter, faster, and stronger. Alex and Wu can stroke the ball just as well on slow cloth, on a 10' table, or any other equipment the old guys used. I'm not saying those guys can't compete, but Mosconi would have a tough time winning DCC.
 
I think the "old" players had an added incentive to play well and hone their pool skills. They grew up in the depression era - literally, didn't eat if they didn't win. From stories I have heard -pool game was more business than "sport" to them.
 
Drew said:
Just like any other sport...players will continue to evolve and become better and better. I remember watching Michael Jordan playing 15 years ago. Back then he was God on the court. But by today's standards he would have to compete with guys like Kobe and Iverson. He wouldn't stand a chance. Do you think Babe Ruth could hit Randy Johnson? Put Alex Rodriguez in the 60's and he'd be hitting 100 home runs a season and batting .500.

Why is pool any different? Just like in baseball or basketball, the players become smarter, faster, and stronger. Alex and Wu can stroke the ball just as well on slow cloth, on a 10' table, or any other equipment the old guys used. I'm not saying those guys can't compete, but Mosconi would have a tough time winning DCC.
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To say Jordan would have no chance against Kobe and Iverson is just ..... laughable, I guess Wilt couldn't compete either. And if the Babe had loaded up on steroids instead of hot dogs, they would still be chasing his homerun records.
 
punter said:
To say Jordan would have no chance against Kobe and Iverson is just ..... laughable, I guess Wilt couldn't compete either. And if the Babe had loaded up on steroids instead of hot dogs, they would still be chasing his homerun records.
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The games have changed. I don't even think Babe Ruth would make it to the Majors today; juiced or not. Jordan and Chamberlain were so good because they were so ahead of their time. How do you defend a style you've never seen before? Kobe learned the game from watching Jordan...and believe it or not, Kobe does it better. You think Wilt Chamberlain can play with Duncan or Shaquille or even Lebron? You're crazy.

If you're over 40, think back to your high school days. How many pitchers had fastballs in the 90's? Not only that, but how many of them could accurately throw 6 different pitches? In my school, if you couldn't throw harder than 82 or 83, you didn't pitch: end of story. And we had 5 different guys hitting the low 90's (I wasn't one of them).
 
Drew said:
The games have changed. I don't even think Babe Ruth would make it to the Majors today; juiced or not. Jordan and Chamberlain were so good because they were so ahead of their time. How do you defend a style you've never seen before? Kobe learned the game from watching Jordan...and believe it or not, Kobe does it better. You think Wilt Chamberlain can play with Duncan or Shaquille or even Lebron? You're crazy.

If you're over 40, think back to your high school days. How many pitchers had fastballs in the 90's? Not only that, but how many of them could accurately throw 6 different pitches? In my school, if you couldn't throw harder than 82 or 83, you didn't pitch: end of story. And we had 5 different guys hitting the low 90's (I wasn't one of them).
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Babe Ruth not make the majors today?? Talk about a player being ahead of him time. Do you know that before Ruth, Roger Conner had the home run record with 138! Single season record was 27- and that was in 1884. Talk about being ahead of the times. Oh, and in case your not impressed with his hitting, he was also one of the best, if not the best, pitcher in the league. I find it hard to believe that he would not make the majors, given the fact that he was the most dominate player that will ever live. You are right about the games being changed, but you have to base the players on the times and their dominance.
 
rossaroni said:
Babe Ruth not make the majors today?? Talk about a player being ahead of him time. Do you know that before Ruth, Roger Conner had the home run record with 138! Single season record was 27- and that was in 1884. Talk about being ahead of the times. Oh, and in case your not impressed with his hitting, he was also one of the best, if not the best, pitcher in the league. I find it hard to believe that he would not make the majors, given the fact that he was the most dominate player that will ever live. You are right about the games being changed, but you have to base the players on the times and their dominance.
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80 years ago dude. I'm not saying he wasn't a dominating player...he absolutely was. But almost a century later, the game has changed too much. How many MLB players are overweight drunks? There's a reason why you don't see that anymore.
 
Kobe better than Jordan? Pass the glue, please.......

Drew said:
Jordan and Chamberlain were so good because they were so ahead of their time. How do you defend a style you've never seen before? Kobe learned the game from watching Jordan...and believe it or not, Kobe does it better. You think Wilt Chamberlain can play with Duncan or Shaquille or even Lebron? You're crazy.
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Take it from a guy that saw Jordan in his prime. No one could shut him down. You were happy if Michael went off on you for 25, and this was against some of the best defensive players in the game. Today, defense is a punchline. Kobe is a one man show. Too bad he'll never win the title without someone else to draw the defense's attention. Jordan has two hands worth of rings, and he was the MVP in every series he played in, and also won Defensive Player of the Year a few times. Let's see Kobe win one.

And, Wilt could compete against Shaq, and would torture LeBron. That's like saying LeBron could cover Olajuwon or Ewing. Different position, different skills. Wilt couldn't run the point as well as LeBron, but down low, he'd torture him.

Funny how some think that because the new athlete is faster or stronger, that it makes them better players. My dad always told me he could kick my ass in a fight any time he wanted. He said, "sure you're bigger and faster than me, but I'm a hell of a lot meaner than you." 'Nuf said, dad. You win.
 
Drew said:
I remember watching Michael Jordan playing 15 years ago. Back then he was God on the court. But by today's standards he would have to compete with guys like Kobe and Iverson. He wouldn't stand a chance.
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:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
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