Old Wive's tales are true! and an ethics question..

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude, let me clarify somethings for ya real quick. 1st off I didn't come on here expecting anyone to "pat me on the back." I came on here to tell an entertaining story and pose a debatable ethics question.

Now there's some that will say that's there's nothing wrong with it, and some that will say there is.. Hence the "debatable" portion of the question at hand. It seems like you and ole Russ over there are trying to take it to a more personal level and I have to question why?

As far as alot of guys waiting to beat the shit out of a "kid." Well I officially hit the old guy mark on the 1st of october (I'm 30). The only thing that's truly sad mentioned here is that there's alot of guys waiting to beat the shit out of a kid?

You can disagree with it, and you can say that you believe it to be unethical (which hey, I'm all for that's the reason I put the thread up was to discuss it.. both sides of the equation). You see alot of people in this thread look at both sides of the equation and make a decision based upon that information. They realize while that may be their opinion it's not the only one out there, and to fully come to a conclusion on any debatable topic you must fully understand both sides of that equation.


What you failed to read was, it wasn't sitting quite a 100% with me which is the reason that I poised the question in the 1st place. I see nothing wrong with splitting 1st and second with my chick, that's pretty common place. Your right though it wasn't too cool to box the guy out of his opportunity to play for second. I had already come to that conclusion previous to posting the thread.

I've seen "the move" (as you put it) done in several tournaments before (and so have several others by the looks of the thread) so what I poised was how does everyone feel about it?

Again it's a debatable question, not personal, why can't we just leave it at that?

DJ

Hey, there's nothing personal here. I've never been the guy boxed out nor have I ever had money on that guy but I have been there for such. When a deal is made, it has to include all the players involved. You made a deal and it didn't include one of the players because there was the intent to make things more difficult for him. Does it matter that it was your girlfriend?

I'm not looking to beat-up anyone. That's really not my thing and anyone that knows me will attest to that. My point is that a poolroom (especially one you don't know) is not exactly the place you want to start trouble in. I mean, you really shouldn't do it for high-stakes but why bother for small ones?

What if there's that one guy whom you don't know about (obviously, since it's not your room) and he just flips out? He's been watching you all day (you're the stranger, everyone watches the stranger) and decides he doesn't like you (not rare) and finally, you've given him sufficient reason to say (or do) something about it.

For many reasons, this is a pool taboo. It's a gambler's taboo for the reasons I've stated and it is a competitor's taboo. I've had to play girlfriends in my life. A few of them are run-out players so these things happened from time to time. What did I do? I think I won every time. I can say with honesty, I tried to win every time. The moment people believe a fix is in, they get upset. Whether they do something TO YOU or not, they likely end up doing something. Most of the time, they just end up quitting the event altogether and then, everyone loses.

 

[PlynSets]

Jude as well written and well thought out response! Incidentally I agree with all of it.

DJ

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude as well written and well thought out response! Incidentally I agree with all of it.

DJ

Thank you, sir. Hope you have a good weekend.

 

[laser2507]

I think you did the right thing. Lets be honest. If you know you can run over them like a train then let your girl go through, thats fine. You have to make your girl happy. If though you had a tough competition, then maybe not. But you didnt, so you did the right thing.

 

[cheesemouse]

Plynsets,

I read your story. You spin a good yarn by the way.
My question is why did you expose yourself and others to an ethical situation in the first place? It seems to me that the same outcome could have been reached by you just by keeping your mouthshut(no dig). Your g/f had won other matches so who is to say she couldn't legitimately beat you also. It could have been yours and only your choice to make. Ethics is a personal thing. You could have left it to yourself with no one the wiser.
If you three discussed the possiblities on the way over and had your moves planned then your ethics were predetermined.....keep up the good work in writing prose...SI....

 

[Russ Chewning]

God I hope so...



Ya know Russ, when you go out to a bar with some non pool players and you run a rack.. They think it's pretty cool. If you run two in a couple games they think your gods gift to pool.. If you sit there and pound them into the ground their not going to want to play pool with you anymore. For the most part I don't play pool when I go out with my friends to bars (or other social interactions where "pool" isn't the main venue) I just go and have beers and have a good time.

Well, that's where we are different. I am a competition junkie. I play to win. Always. In every thing that I do. If my friends can't hang with me, I give them a spot that makes it closer. Me having to play lost pocket 8 ball while they play normal 8 ball is a good example. My wife is a banger. When I was playing well, I banked the 8 ball in the pocket my last ball went in. I give friends/family enough of a spot where they can win sometimes, but I will still my absolute hardest to outrun the spot.

The difference here though is I'm willing to explore both sides of the fence and look at all the angles. Your seeing one, and anyone that disagrees with you is a schlep in your mind..

To be perfectly honest, I had high hopes for you, because you seemed to be coming around. The issue still seems to be up in the air with you, though. You have failed to make a concrete statement that what you did is wrong, and that you shouldn't do it any more. I don't think you're a "schlep". I think you are someone riding the fence still. Pick a side, dude. I generally see moral/ethical matters in a very black/white manner. It's who I've developed into. I make one or two wrong choices in the past. If I sit down with someone who explains to me why something I did was wrong, I will take their advice. Not justify my actions.

Russ.. Might I point out to you that you yourself by your own admission have pulled the very same move? If it is so fundamentally wrong on soooooo many levels, then why did you do it way back then? You said you only did it once and y'all lost. In that post you made it sound like the reasoning for never doing it again was becuase it didn't work out the way you planned. Only in the other posts are you throwing boulders in the metaphorical glass house.

Crucial difference here, buddy. I am making the absolute statement that what I did was WRONG. I make no "notes" about seeing other people do it.. And as far as the reasoning, it was wrong back then because it cost me my chance to win. It's wrong now because I have grown a conscience and I now recognize we could have affected his chance at winning, as well as the reason I had when younger. You see, the thing was, if not for the influence of my "friend", I never would have even thought of the dumping scenario. I just did not think that way. I always played to win. Forgive me if I was naieve (sp?) back then. I really did not even recognize we were negatively affecting the other person's chances. I didn't thinkt hat way at all back in my younger days. I really tried not to think about the other guy's chances of winning at all. That would be defeatist thinking.

That being said, what in the hell do you think you know about higher level pool or what it takes to "beat" champions? Have you ever played a champion? Gambled against one? Had the opportunity to practice with one? Aside from some fantasy in your head, I don't think you have.

Rackmsukr's husband is a Northwest champion, Mike Zimmerman. Has beat Dan Louie, a World Champion, plenty of times to win Northwest tournaments. He's beaten just about every "name" pro to play in NorthWest tournaments. I've played him plenty of times. J.D., another local champion who has won quite a few regional tournaments. Played him too. Brad Gowan, Pat Schumacher, Charlie Brown, Stan Tourangeau, Glenn Atwell, et al. I played well on a relatively unknown player named John Kenyon, who clobbered John Horsfall in a NW tournament. He's a world class player. Rarely travels outside of Canada. Played a German champ named Klaus Zobreckis, who I believe placed top 16 in the only American tourney he ever played in. He used to run 100's in straight pool every time we practiced together. I played Samuel Clemann when he was in Mannheim a few years back. I am sure you don't know who he is. He's a champion, tho. Others on the forum WILL know him. Some of these players are champs locally, because they rarely travel. Some are winners of national level Masters tournaments. Stan Tourangeau has won national Master's tournaments multiple times. That's not even mentioning older players like Clyde Bowles. He's only won the Senior's Masters title. Not worthy of consideration as a champ, right. I really am not name dropping, but I'd be willing to bet I've competed against a hell of a lot more "champions" than you have. I've won my fair share of matches, too. I have always seeked out the best players wherever I've played. The only reason I did not compete against Francisco Bustamente when in Germany was that Biel was do damn far away from Mannheim.

Further more the advice and things I learn from this website come from people that are actually willing to "listen" and talk, as well as back up what they say. You are in my opinion a Blow Hard. I don't think you have the faintest idea about what your talking about. I honestly think your some C player that came on here picked up some terminology and has been running racks online ever since.

Hah hah. Well, sorry. I'll listen to what's worth listening to. If in my mind, you are fully on the "wrong" side of the right/wrong equation, I'll tell you. And I said multiple times, it was just MHO. And again, sorry.. I was a C player for about six months when I started, but not since. Linda will tell you. C players do not make it to the finals of weekly events to play her husband Mike Z. The fields are much too strong in Washington state.

Well again Russ, my purpose here wasn't to "convince" you of anything,

Good, because you didn't..

but rather to have an interesting and hopefully intellectual debate covering both sides of the coin about a given topic. Nobody was attacking you or trying to change your opinion on anything. You've since the beginning of this "morally bankrupt" thread have been attacking me, and even after I tried the "lets turn over a new leaf" thing you keep going with your blowhard self. That in turn is what finally generated this response.

You were shown why what you did was wrong. You still make "note" of the fact that others do it too. That smacks of justification, to me. Sorry, like I said, I see a lot of moral issues in black and white.

Russ, again, I don't believe your a player. I also believe (scratch that "know", just becuase of your post above) that you don't have the faintest idea of what "heart" is to a "real" pool player. Having "heart" as it's typicaly described in a pool room, is overcoming some challenge when the odds are stacked against you, and not falling apart during the process.

Russ, I know I have "heart.." I also know I have "gamble.." I'm also pretty convinced you don't know what either of them mean.

DJ

Hah hah.. It's your choice to believe I am not a player. You really have no knowledge for or against that assumption, but many other people believe in things they have no first hand knowledge of. See:Religion

Ooohh.. You have "gamble". Well, WOW. I've heard a lot of broke pool players say the same thing. Just so you know, having "gamble" simply means you are willing to take even odds or even slightly worse odds in a match in order to get some action. Probabilities state that if you continue to bet everything on a coinflip or a bet with something like .45/.55 odds, you will end up broke. Basically a mathematical certainty. That's why just about all the great gamblers in pool end up selling t-shirts, pool cues, videos and books. You got "gamble"? You GO, boyeeeeee!

Russ

 

[PlynSets]

Let me just sum up the response to the rest of the post. Your a blowhard..

Ooohh.. You have "gamble". Well, WOW. I've heard a lot of broke pool players say the same thing. Just so you know, having "gamble" simply means you are willing to take even odds or even slightly worse odds in a match in order to get some action. Probabilities state that if you continue to bet everything on a coinflip or a bet with something like .45/.55 odds, you will end up broke. Basically a mathematical certainty. That's why just about all the great gamblers in pool end up selling t-shirts, pool cues, videos and books. You got "gamble"? You GO, boyeeeeee!

Russ

I couldn't think of a good response to this without putting up my personal finances, which really isn't any of your biz..

So that being said Thanks for your concern but I think I'll be alright.

DJ

 

[Cuebacca]

Generally, the fact that a people will beat someone up for something doesn't prove that the person had done something wrong. There are people out there that will beat people up for things, misunderstandings, assumptions, ignorance, intolerance, and so on. Sometimes people might have deserved it when they got beat up, but definitely not always.

Some people will beat someone up after losing a lot of money fair and square. Some people will beat someone up just for being a minority or for being gay. It doen't mean that the victim of that hate crime had done something immoral. It just means that it is good, practical, advice to watch your step because there are some anti-social fools out there.

--

In my opinion, there is very little in life that is black and white. Most things are grey and need to be considered from all angles. Is it wrong to kill someone? Well, I hope you can't answer this question without more information.

For my own reasons, some of which overlap points made in this thread, I have never done a "move" like DJ described, and I doubt I would. Right now, I don't feel like getting into my reasons.

However, if I had been the 3rd place guy, I really would not have minded. If he minds, in my opinion its sour grapes. Sure, if I'm not thinking clearly and I'm having a mentally weak day, I might piss and moan about it, "boohoo, I didn't get to play the girl for second. I want to play someone I can beat. I wanna win. Waaah!" Well tough crap, he got to play someone for a chance to win. Maybe somebody would try to kick his ass for it. Do you know why? Not because DJ is morally bankrupt. Its because the guy is being weak and insecure, and his ego couldn't take the fact that the boyfriend and girlfriend won and that he's not as good at pool.

OK, I'm being overly harsh, and I don't completely believe these things 100% in the last paragraph, but there is some truth to it. Its just another perspective that should be considered. These are the things that I would try to tell myself if I was the 3rd place guy. No one got screwed here. The guy got an opportunity to play a better player, DJ, and his game will probably get better for it if he only had the right attitude about it. Also, playing against a good player was a privilege, not a right.

Alright, feel free to slam me now.

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

Generally, the fact that a people will beat someone up for something doesn't prove that the person had done something wrong. There are people out there that will beat people up for things, misunderstandings, assumptions, ignorance, intolerance, and so on. Sometimes people might have deserved it when they got beat up, but definitely not always.

Some people will beat someone up after losing a lot of money fair and square. Some people will beat someone up just for being a minority or for being gay. It doen't mean that the victim of that hate crime had done something immoral. It just means that it is good, practical, advice to watch your step because there are some anti-social fools out there.

--

In my opinion, there is very little in life that is black and white. Most things are grey and need to be considered from all angles. Is it wrong to kill someone? Well, I hope you can't answer this question without more information.

For my own reasons, some of which overlap points made in this thread, I have never done a "move" like DJ described, and I doubt I would. Right now, I don't feel like getting into my reasons.

However, if I had been the 3rd place guy, I really would not have minded. If he minds, in my opinion its sour grapes. Sure, if I'm not thinking clearly and I'm having a mentally weak day, I might piss and moan about it, "boohoo, I didn't get to play the girl for second. I want to play someone I can beat. I wanna win. Waaah!" Well tough crap, he got to play someone for a chance to win. Maybe somebody would try to kick his ass for it. Do you know why? Not because DJ is morally bankrupt. Its because the guy is being weak and insecure, and his ego couldn't take the fact that the boyfriend and girlfriend won and that he's not as good at pool.

OK, I'm being overly harsh, and I don't completely believe these things 100% in the last paragraph, but there is some truth to it. Its just another perspective that should be considered. These are the things that I would try to tell myself if I was the 3rd place guy. No one got screwed here. The guy got an opportunity to play a better player, DJ, and his game will probably get better for it if he only had the right attitude about it. Also, playing against a good player was a privilege, not a right.

Alright, feel free to slam me now.

If I'm the thrid place guy and I see this going on, it gives me way more incentive to beat my next opponent. If I beat him than I have a lock on double dipping the girl. I wouldn't feel screwed. In fact, I would feel my chances of winning first increase. Because I only have to beat the good player once. Then I can beat the banger twice easier than I could the A player. Especially in a race to 3. I can beat anyone in a race to 3. Well, all I'm saying is that, if you did pull a "move" (as they say), you risked losing money as much as you did winning money. But the odds were just a bit skewed in your favor. There is absolutely nothing wrong in what you did. Which one of us here would deny a chance to have a g/f be extremely happy, win the tournament and then make more money doing it. Or is everyone have the pair of grapefruits and the ego that Russ has? Who here would honestly say " screw her, I want to win first..." Come on. Be realistic. Well I'm sorry for digging up ths old post but I was looking for something else and stumbled across this thread. Just thought I'd add my two cents.

Tony

 

[jcrack_corn]

lol, this thread is stupid. anyone who doesnt manipulate a bracket (legally) for their advantage is stupid.

OT: anyone who BELIEVES that ANY tournament with a calcutta is not manipulated is REALLY stupid. (if players are allowed to participate in calcutta)

 

[Hal]

my g/f is a D player. If she runs 3 - 4 balls I'm pretty impressed.
DJ

I read this entire thread. For her to play that bad and end up 3rd in a full tournament seems highly unlikely. If you ask me the entire story is made up. Just my opinion.

 

[VIProfessor]

The lack of ethics is killing our sport!

This whole thread brings to mind a story that I was told a fews years ago. I traveled to Minnesota in 2001 to play in the BCA Amateur 9-ball Championship and was picked up by the Tournament Director at the airport. On the way to the tournament site we were talking pool, and I asked him why, in his opinion, pool has such a hard time attracting outside (non-billiard industry) sponsors. He replied, "Because the game is too d--- dirty", and proceed to tell me a story about a winner take all tournament some years back (I will purposely refrain from mentioning the name of the tournament, the players, or the year). When he mentioned the tournament, I said, "Yeah, I remember watching that tournament. I showed me that even champions can dog a simple shot for the cheese!." He said, "You don't know the whole story. The eventual winner of the tournament was a 20-1 underdog, and the other players in the tournament pooled up $50K and ALL of them dumped to him. After the tournament was over, the tournament sponsors (casino owners) called them in a room and said, "You sorry MF's, we know what happened and we're going to pay you, but rest assured that the casinos in this town will never sponsor a tournament again!"

I'm sure there are some of you out there who know this story and can fill in the blanks, but the point here is that the obvious lack of ethics and professionalism is killing our sport! On one hand, I have a certain degree of sympathy because I understand the financial difficulties and the lack of potential tournament earnings that would induce players to engage in this type of behavior. If we look at the big picture, however, it is clear that by doing this we are cutting off our noses to spite our faces. We can and must do better!

 

[Cornerman]

------------------------------

So there in lies the ethics question.. Do you guys see anything wrong with forfeiting a match to your chick, becuase it makes more sense for the stronger player to try to finish the field?

I'm going to say this happens all across the country. And it isn't always a bf/gf type of thing. Two friends meet each other for the point, the stronger player virtually handing over the game because he's got the better shot at the B side than the weaker player.

I can see the ethical part if it was, say, a WPBA qualifier and they only give out one spot and the stronger player was already a WPBA player. But this wasn't a pro qualifier. In Bangerville, there are places where the players would question your intelligence if you didn't make this move. Considering that all the money is going your way tonight, and there was no calcutta, I think most players who have been around the block would see it coming, would expect it, and wouldn't complain about it.

Fred

 

[Ruthless]

If anyone thinks there isn't major amounts of dumping, deals made, splitting pots, etc.. in the larger tournaments just as in the smaller ones they need to take a reality check.

I play pool to make money......period.

All of those thousands of hours paying for pool time to get to be a decent player need to be repaid in my mind.

I can't count the times or number of reasons I've dumped. But usually it's after I've clocked a target(s). I don't want the little $100 1st place, I want it all if possible.

Hate me if you will, but that's why I have the name, Ruthless (a T-Bone tastes much better than "ethics" )

(and 90% of the better players do the same thing, they may try to put on an innocent face....but it's fake)

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

If anyone thinks there isn't major amounts of dumping, deals made, splitting pots, etc.. in the larger tournaments just as in the smaller ones they need to take a reality check.

I play pool to make money......period.

All of those thousands of hours paying for pool time to get to be a decent player need to be repaid in my mind.

I can't count the times or number of reasons I've dumped. But usually it's after I've clocked a target(s). I don't want the little $100 1st place, I want it all if possible.

Hate me if you will, but that's why I have the name, Ruthless (a T-Bone tastes much better than "ethics" )

(and 90% of the better players do the same thing, they may try to put on an innocent face....but it's fake)

And also.....anyone who thinks this doesn't go on in other sports is just as nieve. I don't believe the story is made up. Especially if it is a race to 3 in bangersville. Well, I know this happens in golf, tennis, bowling and any other sport that players gamble on. When it comes down to money being involved than it is no longer gambling and more playing the odds. Professional gamblers aren't really gambling anymore. They play the odds. Well I don't blame ruthless or any other pro that does this. All the bleeding hearts can say that this is why our sport is bla bla bla.......This sport is not known for being a gentlemans game for many reasons. Not just this. When do you see golf being played at 2a.m.? There are a bunch of reasons why "our" sport is the way it is. Not just because of the dumping and hustling, because that happens everywhere there is money to be made..... Period. The ones who complain are usually on the losing side of things. Eventually everyone learns the ropes. And the means being a sucker every now and then. When you know the game then a newcomer will come along and learn just the same as you did. All I'm saying is that pool is a great sport for many reasons. The gamble, the thrill, and the rush of easy money won or lost. Anyone that says that what happened here is unethical, should think that gambling is unethical. Because that's what everyone that entered the tournament did in the first place. They gambled 10 dollars or whatever the entry fee in order to win more. When you take that gamble, you are taking the gamble of something like this happening to you. Close minded people open your eyes to the real world and the way things really work. Whether you like it or not, it's going to be like this forever.


Tony

 

[Snapshot9]

Yeah ...

there are going to be one hell of a lot of Poolplayers trying to explain to
God, what a 'Partly sin' is!!! ....... ROFL ..... lol What do you think the outcome will be???

 

[rackmsuckr]

Well a great analogy would be to a fishermen it's a lake so full of fish that when you drop a hook in the water the fish don't bite it they just jump in the boat. Not just in the boat, but jump in open the live well then jump in their smiling and happy to be there like it was there purpose in life, and they were just waiting for the guy to put the boat in the water.

"BangerVille..." Yes folks it does exist. I'm not joking in the least.

Is this what you mean by Bangerville?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8971825484088707371&q=fish+jumping+in+boat&hl=en

Russ, thanks for the kudos to Mike.

 

[Mystick Cue Fan]

This whole thread brings to mind a story that I was told a fews years ago. I traveled to Minnesota in 2001 to play in the BCA Amateur 9-ball Championship and was picked up by the Tournament Director at the airport. On the way to the tournament site we were talking pool, and I asked him why, in his opinion, pool has such a hard time attracting outside (non-billiard industry) sponsors. He replied, "Because the game is too d--- dirty", and proceed to tell me a story about a winner take all tournament some years back (I will purposely refrain from mentioning the name of the tournament, the players, or the year). When he mentioned the tournament, I said, "Yeah, I remember watching that tournament. I showed me that even champions can dog a simple shot for the cheese!." He said, "You don't know the whole story. The eventual winner of the tournament was a 20-1 underdog, and the other players in the tournament pooled up $50K and ALL of them dumped to him. After the tournament was over, the tournament sponsors (casino owners) called them in a room and said, "You sorry MF's, we know what happened and we're going to pay you, but rest assured that the casinos in this town will never sponsor a tournament again!"

I'm sure there are some of you out there who know this story and can fill in the blanks, but the point here is that the obvious lack of ethics and professionalism is killing our sport! On one hand, I have a certain degree of sympathy because I understand the financial difficulties and the lack of potential tournament earnings that would induce players to engage in this type of behavior. If we look at the big picture, however, it is clear that by doing this we are cutting off our noses to spite our faces. We can and must do better!

WHO THE HELL GIVES UP 20-1 odds??????? For such a huge difference, the skill level must have been a huge difference. I don't think they would give a local shortstop 20-1 odds against Efren. There is way too much risk there with those kind of odds. I don't believe this for one bit. Especially coming from a casino. 2 to 1 or even 3 to one. I've never seen something so ridiculus in a heads up match. Especially when 2 players are strong. I think whomever told this to you stretched the truth quite a bit.

Tony

 

[VIProfessor]

WHO THE HELL GIVES UP 20-1 odds??????? For such a huge difference, the skill level must have been a huge difference. I don't think they would give a local shortstop 20-1 odds against Efren. There is way too much risk there with those kind of odds. I don't believe this for one bit. Especially coming from a casino. 2 to 1 or even 3 to one. I've never seen something so ridiculus in a heads up match. Especially when 2 players are strong. I think whomever told this to you stretched the truth quite a bit.

Tony

From what I was told, the player wasn't a 20-1 dog in the match, but to win the tournament. That's what makes the story so disturbing. I was told that not one, but many players were involved in the scam and that they ALL dumped to him in their matches.

 

[Ruthless]

From what I was told, the player wasn't a 20-1 dog in the match, but to win the tournament. That's what makes the story so disturbing. I was told that not one, but many players were involved in the scam and that they ALL dumped to him in their matches.

I would have been the one asking the owner how much he would give me to put the guy out. All's fair in love, war, & backstabbing (they are all about the same thing anyway)